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It says "the player that finished deploying his army first is allowed to add +1 to dice roll" so does that mean if one player has a scout and the other doesn't they will always add +1

Reads that way to me.

The player who does not have scouts will always add the +1

oooooh I see

This is one I really wish they would FAQ. This is always a spilt topic. If you search, you will see many pages on discussing it. IMO, GW should FAQ any question on the boards they have more than one page discussion.

Johnny-Crass wrote:The player who does not have scouts will always add the +1

Or not, as the rules also say that Deployment ENDS when you deploy characters. Making scouts not normal deployment.

At the last tournament I ran I FAQ'd that Scouts did not auto lose you the +1

as far as i am aware deployment is over before scouts deploy.

also scouts are not deployed during deployment, but they are placed on the table by a special rule.

lixulana wrote:also scouts are not deployed during deployment, but they are placed on the table by a special rule.

Scout says to deploy them 'after all other non-Scout units from both armies have been deployed.'

It does not say after deployment (phase), so what did I miss?
Heck, Scout is a Deployment Special Rule - which certainly implies it is deployment.

I would never enforce this on my opponent, but always grant the +1 if I've scouted and he hasn't, just to be safe.

I would guess that most people play as Nos has house ruled for his tournament, quite possibly GW as well, but that is pure speculation.

Glad it was asked then.

I mis-read a fair bit of Fantasy it seems.

I always agree to lose the +1 if i field scouts. However i firmly believe the ruling is after normal deployment.
Too me the whole point of scouts is too gain a firm advantage v certain units hence the high cost of scouts v their normal units.

They way i see it is two fold..

1. You deploy all your normal units and Characters then roll to see who goes first. If you get to go first deploy your scouts 12 inch from the enemy.
2. If you dont get to go first then you have the option to (a)Deploy somewhere near your opponent to force him to deal with them or (b) In your own deployment zone thus denying your opponent free points.

GB if you read the scout rules though this is not up for debate as it states in their entry that if you have scouts you loose the +1

Johnny-Crass wrote:GB if you read the scout rules though this is not up for debate as it states in their entry that if you have scouts you loose the +1

what now?

Pages 79 and 142

"When using this method the players roll off to see who gets the first turn, but the player that finished deploying his army first is allowed to add +1 to his dice roll"

"Scouts are set up after all other non scout units from both armies have been deployed"


Seems fairly cut and dry to me

It does not state what you said, however. it does NOT "state" that you lose the +1

The counter is that deployment is specified as being finished when you deploy characters; thus characters are a special deployment

nosferatu1001 wrote:The counter is that deployment is specified as being finished when you deploy characters; thus scouts are a special deployment

(Assuming I edited your text correctly,) why does this being true matter? Why does it matter if the deployment is "special"?

That the +1 for deploying first does not include special deployment, which has finished before you deploy scouts

nosferatu1001 wrote:That the +1 for deploying first does not include special deployment, which has finished before you deploy scouts

How do you figure this? The book just states deployment which seems to be a blanket term. Yet another quote from the scouts page
" If deployed this second way scouts may ect" Notice how it says you deploy scouts? With the word deploy

I am still missing something.
I see nothing that says deployment ENDS after characters, but I do see it saying that they are deployed last, then I see the Scouts saying to do an extra step.

Is the last element of the thing not also the end of the thing?

Not when you have an extra rule telling you to deploy more units.
Specific > general and all that.

Not sure if the Specific>General concept has anything to do with anything here.

I think Nosferatu's got some good points, but you've got to read in-between the lines to get there. To assume that Scouts lose you the +1 is a simpler process. Then again, that's not to say it's correct.
No where does it outright say "Scouts count towards who finished deploying first", but the same goes for the reverse.

Here's a question: have Scouts ever done this in previous editions? Are Scouts that good, that they're worth giving up a better chance at going first? I don't think so. My opponent wants to field scouts, I say let him, and at no additional cost beyond their points.

Scouts in 7th explicitly didnt lose you the +1

They seem to have forgotten about Scouts in some ways, as meeting engagement can force scouts to not deploy, which usually entirely stuffs them ....

I think another argument that favors scouts being a separate deployment phase is the way the order of deployment is determined if both players have scouts.

For the regular alternating deployment, both players roll off to see who deploys the first unit. The players then alternate deploying units until all units are deployed.

At this point, if both players have scouts, you have a second roll to see who deploys first. This would make it seem that deploying scouts is a separate act from the actual "deployment phase" since you don't follow the preset deployment order that you rolled for earlier. You start a whole new phase with a new roll and a new order of deployment.

We have always played that you finish regular deployment, then roll to see who goes first, then roll for order of scout deployment, then deploy scouts, then start the game.

Scouts are supposed to give you a tactical advantage. Know if you are going first or second is pretty important when deploying your scouts.

Warpsolution wrote:Not sure if the Specific>General concept has anything to do with anything here.

I meant that purely in relation to nosferatu1001's point that the deployment ENDS after characters. With scouts having a rule stating they are deployed later, it is the more specific of the two.

Potentially other issues are involved, but deciding deploying is over before all units are finished being deployed is strange.

Hence special deployment - the fact you start again with alternating shows it is again different to the rest of the deplyment

I'm confident that people are happier with not always losing the +1 if they have scouts, from feedback before and after the tournament

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hence special deployment - the fact you start again with alternating shows it is again different to the rest of the deplyment

I'm confident that people are happier with not always losing the +1 if they have scouts, from feedback before and after the tournament

I do not disagree with either part of that statement.

I am just not sure how that has any bearing on the rules.

Editing to add:
Just to clarify, I am still trying to figure this out.
For half of this thread I thought the scouts actually gave the +1.

Speaking as someone who regularly uses a unit of Dwarf Rangers:

When I deploy my scouts, I voluntarily give up the +1.
Every opponent has accepted this without question, as I'm placing a unit on the table during the deployment phase last. (I worded that very carefully)
I've never had an opponent using scouts try to claim he could still get the +1 for first turn.
I've had a few Tournament Organizers *specifically clarify* that the BRB rules make it clear that you lose the +1 automatically by deploying a unit with the Scout rule after all other units on both sides were deployed. Some of those TOs then house-ruled that the +1 was up for grabs, some just confirmed the BRB ruling.

The above is all anecdote, which renders it somewhat useless for RAW questions, but I thought I'd express my viewpoint.

How is the Scout's special deployment rules more specific than regular deployment rules? They're different, yes, but more specific? I don't think so. Thoughts?

And what about d-usa's comment? What can people offer for/against the idea that you determine who goes first, then deploy Scouts?
The roll to see who has first is detailed in the Alternating Units section on p.142, and Scouts come after that, so maybe it comes after Scouts?

I think the problem is that p.142 talks about deployment and the end of it, while the Scout section talks about further deployment. Characters are the last thing to be deployed, therefore Scouts are special. But, obviously, Scouts are deployed, so they're part of deployment.

I will continue to give up the +1 even though im not 100% on ti as in all honesty it really is down to what army you play whether the +1 has an advantage to you.

I mean lets be honest. I sometimes field a couple of units of 5 or so Cham Skinks to get a unit or 2 out of place but if im facing a Dwarf player that fields a unit of 50 Rangers with Crossbow and GW 12 inches of me im bricking myself if he gets 1st turn.
Hell even 20 of those bad boys is enough to really ruin your day.
I personally believe that not being able to charge on the first turn is enough punishment for Scouts.

I am going to throw something else into the mix though.
Why are scouts deployed last anyway? A scout force is an advance force for Intel etc on the enemy, to this end i think Scouts should have 3 numbered tokens placed on the table anywhere. After everything has been deployed roll a D3 and the scouts are placed on the token the number represents.
However in the above case they would have to be Max 1 unit of 10 models but can charge in the first turn, can be deployed within 12 inches but do not stop marching etc.