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This thread is for any assumptions, either in favor or against that some Chapters were created using traitor/renegade gene-seed. My arguments are:

1) Traitor gene-seed is supposed to be locked away. However, only the Mechanicum has access to these vaults, and who's to say they can't open them and experiment with them?

2) Gene-seed by itself is not corrupt, unless the individual who carries it is mutated. Any 'pure' gene-seed implanted will create predispositions to certain things, but it becomes a nature vs. nurture argument. Even if the Chapter carries a predisposition since they use, say Sons of Horus gene-seed, it doesn't necessarily they'll end up with the Black Legion, especially if they don't know the truth. Both the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children Legion had 'perfect' gene-seed before the HH, after all.

3) Some would say this could never happen, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicus aren't above lying or twisting the truth. If they simply state that the Chapter has untraceable gene-seed, then they could get away with using traitor gene-seed, especially the 'clean' ones kept in the Martian vaults.

Tadashi wrote:This thread is for any assumptions, either in favor or against that some Chapters were created using traitor/renegade gene-seed. My arguments are:

1) Traitor gene-seed is supposed to be locked away. However, only the Mechanicum has access to these vaults, and who's to say they can't open them and experiment with them?

2) Gene-seed by itself is not corrupt, unless the individual who carries it is mutated. Any 'pure' gene-seed implanted will create predispositions to certain things, but it becomes a nature vs. nurture argument. Even if the Chapter carries a predisposition since they use, say Sons of Horus gene-seed, it doesn't necessarily they'll end up with the Black Legion, especially if they don't know the truth. Both the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children Legion had 'perfect' gene-seed before the HH, after all.

3) Some would say this could never happen, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicus aren't above lying or twisting the truth. If they simply state that the Chapter has untraceable gene-seed, then they could get away with using traitor gene-seed, especially the 'clean' ones kept in the Martian vaults.

I would venture to say the higher up you get in the Imperium, the less they really actually care about Chaos and "Traitor Gene-seed". We need a new chapter ASAP? "Just dig up some Gene-seed, I don't give a gak were you get it we need a new Legion and we need it NOW". Not to also mention Gene-seed it not exactly that prevalent of a resource.

To be exact, gene-seed is almost impossible to make from scratch.

Tadashi wrote:To be exact, gene-seed is almost impossible to make from scratch.

Exactly, which is why I don't really think the High-Lords care that much about were it came from, they might if they bothered ask a Large or Powerful Chapter for some Gene-seed in return for something but not that often.

The Ecclesiarch might, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicum would probably keep it quiet amongst themselves. I can imagine grey-robed Inquisitors and red-robed Tech Mages huddled in conference over the matter in the Temple of the Omnissiah on Mars while heavily-armed Skitarii and Praetorian Servitors stand guard over the entrances.

Tadashi wrote:The Ecclesiarch might, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicum would probably keep it quiet amongst themselves. I can imagine grey-robed Inquisitors and red-robed Tech Mages huddled in conference over the matter in the Temple of the Omnissiah on Mars while heavily-armed Skitarii and Praetorian Servitors stand guard over the entrances.

You know, it brings a big question up if the Blood Ravens were the product of such a meeting. I would not doubt it considering the hush hush about there Primarch and Gene-seed.

Although in Retribution and Chaos Rising there were MANY Blood Ravens that fell to Chaos so I would not put it out of question said Gene-seed might just make you more vulnerable to it.

It's not just the Blood Ravens, I'm sure there are other Chapters with mysterious backgrounds who may or may not be descended from the Traitor Legions.

As for chapters with suspicious backgrounds I can think of two, the first one I'm not sure of, but here we go.

Soul Drinkers, at the end they are having their gene seed inspected and it's discovered that they are actually NOT successors of the Imperial Fists. Or so I heard.

Red Scorpions, no one knows who is their founding chapter, and the sure as hell make a point to prevent anyone from finding out as seen with their use of apothecaries rather than sergeants.

Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

Vice_Grip wrote:Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

No, they can't. Arguleon Veq (Karnulon the Sorcerer) of the Word Bearers Legion came to realize Chaos wasn't worth it, but realized at the same time he was just an empty shell of the hero he used to be. So he decided to go out with a bang...(read the novel Daemon World for the details).

Vice_Grip wrote:Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

If by rejoin you mean join his brain matter with a bolt round then yes.

To the OP. There are stories of other chapters having possible traitor geneseed. Arguably the Grey Knights share their geneseed with the Death Guard.

I think they would be ok save the Thousand Sons. Since Ahirman made the pact with Tzeentch, any marine made with the Thousand Sons geneseed would become a Rubric marine. Which also puts to rest the idea that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons, because they would essentially all become mindless automatons except for their psykers.

Bongfu wrote:
I think they would be ok save the Thousand Sons. Since Ahirman made the pact with Tzeentch, any marine made with the Thousand Sons geneseed would become a Rubric marine. Which also puts to rest the idea that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons, because they would essentially all become mindless automatons except for their psykers.

Not quite. Codex: Chaos Space Marines states that the Rubric of Ahriman only affected the Planet of the Sorcerers. Otherwise, it would mean that the stored Thousand Sons gene-seed would have been compromised and that could only happen when the wards around the terran solar system, Mars, and Terra, were breached.

Tadashi wrote:

Bongfu wrote:
I think they would be ok save the Thousand Sons. Since Ahirman made the pact with Tzeentch, any marine made with the Thousand Sons geneseed would become a Rubric marine. Which also puts to rest the idea that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons, because they would essentially all become mindless automatons except for their psykers.

Not quite. Codex: Chaos Space Marines states that the Rubric of Ahriman only affected the Planet of the Sorcerers. Otherwise, it would mean that the stored Thousand Sons gene-seed would have been compromised and that could only happen when the wards around the terran solar system, Mars, and Terra, were breached.

A legion created with traitor geneseed would not be stationed and remain in the Sol system. Chances are they would quickly be subdued by Tzeentch and turned into a new Thousand Sons-esque warband.

Not if the said Chapter (Blood Ravens) were well-equipped with the proper psychic wards.

And the Grey Knights gene-seed is from the Emperor, not any of the First Founding Legions.

Tadashi wrote:Not if the said Chapter (Blood Ravens) were well-equipped with the proper psychic wards.

And the Grey Knights gene-seed is from the Emperor, not any of the First Founding Legions.

You realize that Tzeentch most powerful psychic entity in the universe next to the Emperor right? I have serious doubts that even the greatest Space marine Librarian could completely shut out his influence.

And my bad, I forgot how much Matt Ward messed up their fluff in the new codex.

Those same wards are the ones used to shield the terran solar system (in a larger manner), among other things, such as the fleets of other Chapters, etc. But even if the Blood Ravens aren't affected by the Rubric, they do show tendencies to Chaos; just look at the recent Aurelian Crusade. Angelos noted that the Chapter purge was 'thorough'.

And then theres that whole 13th founding malarky!

Tadashi wrote:The Ecclesiarch might, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicum would probably keep it quiet amongst themselves.

That said, the Ecclesiarch has a permanent seat in the High Council himself and as such would be involved at every step of sanctioning the creation of a new Chapter of Space Marines.

Of course, certain parties could still always try to hide it from him, but that would be (a) treasonous and (b) unnecessary, as I do believe the Ecclesiarch is most often more politician than a true believer. Just think of him like the pope. A certain grade of ruthlessness seems to be necessary to rise to such high office, and along the way at least a portion of one's innocence is often sacrificed. Even the Canonesses of the Adepta Sororitas aren't entirely immune to this, though they appear to pragmatically see it as a necessary evil of Imperial governance and just another burden to bear. Also, if the High Lords operate via counting votes, it is well possible that the Ecclesiarch simply may find himself to be in the minority, even if he would want to blockade the project.

Personally, I would believe that there are sufficient geneseed samples from loyal Legions (given the "donators" of the previous Foundings) - but a different interpretation would seem just as likely, and certainly there's room for creativity here, up to and including some political machinations, backroom deals and dirty secrets or "heretical" rumours concerning "this new Chapter".

Im sure its more than possible. However I dont think they will ever be confirmed by the High council though it may be suspected.

In my opinion and utilising any fluff I can get my hands on, I would almost certainly say that the Ordos Malleus's Grey Knights are decended from Legions both Loyalist and Rebel.

There is enough fluff around now to almost cement this theory and the Garro audiobooks are leaning VERY heavily on this fact.
According to the Horus Heresy novel 'Flight of the Eisenstein'

Another possible 'Decended' legion would be the Blood Ravens with fluff flying round to suggest being a loyalist splinter of the Thousand sons whom were possibly absent from the Prospero sacking and after learning of Magnus choice to turn against the emperor sided with the Loyalists instead. However to hide the shame and truth of this, they wer drip fed over time fabricated stories and 'Artifacts' to suggest links to the Imperial Fist's legion.

Of couse all of the above is purly fluff and hear say and to some degree I think Goto's Dawn of War novels have provided some contradictory fluff surrounding the Blood Ravens.
But what I have said with surrounding the Grey Knights legion is much more Concrete and looks like it's here to stay now, thanks to the authors of the Horus Heresy series

Any thoughts?

As for the Grey knights I believe it to be more than possible but for the blood ravens... Not to sure. I suspect that is where this thread is going anyway since the OP posts these quite regularly. If the blood ravens were descendants of the Thousand sons they would have more than likely succumbed to the flesh change or Ahrimans rubric as this affected everyone with the thousands sons gene-seed as far as i know. As I understand it the thousand sons gene-seed is quite unstable and prone to mutation. The blood ravens are meant to be mysterious for the exact same reason that this thread was created, to spark peoples imagination. You want to learn more about them but more than likely you will never know the truth. After 5000 threads on the topic in the last 6months its not only pointless but its also started to get boring.

Discussing it is all well and good but there is no canon fluff on their parent chapter so we do not know for sure. Its on the verge of becoming a spam topic.

Tadashi wrote:This thread is for any assumptions, either in favor or against that some Chapters were created using traitor/renegade gene-seed. My arguments are:

1) Traitor gene-seed is supposed to be locked away. However, only the Mechanicum has access to these vaults, and who's to say they can't open them and experiment with them?

The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed. By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines, and, to prevent cross-contamination, the genetic material of each of the old Legions was isolated.

But here

According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

Still

These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra speaking for the Emperor. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter.

True, the Steel Confessors, at the behest of the Iron Hands, seem to have been founded by the AdMech and possibly other chapters have been, but they do not have access to the Traitor banks on Terra.

So this slightly contradicts the notion that the Adeptus Terra have total control but it does not change that the Traitor Geneseed is locked away in stasis on Terra. So the only way the Mechanicum could get their hands on it would be 1) The Adeptus Terra said ok go ahead and sent it to them 2) There are Traitor legions out there that have sent their 5% tithe to Mechanicum.

I very much doubt that any Chapters are descendants of Traitor Legions, the only one possibly being the Blood Ravens. But this would be because they were not a subsequent founding but because they were loyalist Thousand Sons still walking about and therefore Thousand Sons under a different name.

Tadashi wrote:2) Gene-seed by itself is not corrupt, unless the individual who carries it is mutated. Any 'pure' gene-seed implanted will create predispositions to certain things, but it becomes a nature vs. nurture argument. Even if the Chapter carries a predisposition since they use, say Sons of Horus gene-seed, it doesn't necessarily they'll end up with the Black Legion, especially if they don't know the truth. Both the Sons of Horus and the Emperor's Children Legion had 'perfect' gene-seed before the HH, after all.

True to a degree, but the Thousand Sons Geneseed was bad from the start and others seem to have had problems.

Tadashi wrote:3) Some would say this could never happen, but the Inquisition and the Mechanicus aren't above lying or twisting the truth. If they simply state that the Chapter has untraceable gene-seed, then they could get away with using traitor gene-seed, especially the 'clean' ones kept in the Martian vaults.

Could happen.

Vice_Grip wrote:Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor.
From Codex: Witch Hunters.

tadashi wrote:No, they can't. Arguleon Veq (Karnulon the Sorcerer) of the Word Bearers Legion came to realize Chaos wasn't worth it, but realized at the same time he was just an empty shell of the hero he used to be. So he decided to go out with a bang...(read the novel Daemon World for the details).

Slightly OT, but this isn’t necessarily true as

Daemon World wrote:This mission was not a failure. The coven had been charged with finding out what had happened to Karnulon. Amakyre had satisfied this objective - Karnulon had been killed by Arguleon Veq, probably for his spaceship so that Veq could get to Torvendis in the first place. There was no defection from the Legion, and the honour of the Word Bearers was intact. This was what Amakyre would report to the Legion command, and he would be honoured for his duty to the Word Bearers.

Which could be just as true. Daemonworld is my favourite Black Library book btb

81Northman wrote:In my opinion and utilising any fluff I can get my hands on, I would almost certainly say that the Ordos Malleus's Grey Knights are decended from Legions both Loyalist and Rebel.

There is enough fluff around now to almost cement this theory and the Garro audiobooks are leaning VERY heavily on this fact.
According to the Horus Heresy novel 'Flight of the Eisenstein'

Spoiler:

Captain Nathanial Garro is all but told that he and the survivors of the Eisenstein are going to become the founding of Demon Hunters (Grey Knights and the Inquisiton).

The Audio Books Suggest that at least 3 Traitor legions are involved in the founding of the Grey Knights some even becoming the first Grand Masters themselves.

Nathanial Garro - Death Guard
Iacton Qruze - Sons of Horus
Varren - World Eaters

The issue here is that the Grey Knights Geneseed is from the Emperor since the new codex. We will have to wait and see as to how this comes about, unless they are somehow implanted with this and the traitor Geneseed removed.

So on the original post, I think that it is possible, but highly unlikely that it would happen.

Considering there are more than 700 chapters of whom we know next to nothing its quite possible that there are some

and that's not included the chapters of whom we only have a name

Actually, space marines who have either turned renegade or are the last survivors of a fallen chapter can give themselves over to the Deathwatch and be admitted as a Black Shield. This allows for pretty much any marine, even chaos marines, who don't show any overt mutation, to regain some honor. One of the deathwatch captains has been strongly hinted as being one of the Dark Angel's Fallen.

Personally, I'd go with any other explanation before I said that a chapter used traitor geneseed. With the exception of the Blood Ravens, there's plenty of explanations for why a chapter would want to keep their origin secret. Perhaps it has nothing to do with the geneseed itself and instead with the first chapter master? Perhaps he made a pact with a daemon to maintain his chapter's strength after a great failure. This is something later chapter masters would try to hide or erase. Or if it must be related to the geneseed, the 13th and 21st foundings offer much more interesting approaches than simply stating that a chapter has traitor geneseed.

There are none...
It's not that we know where all the chapters are from.
It's just that the traitor gene-seed is locked up and no one has access to it...

purplefood wrote:There are none...
It's not that we know where all the chapters are from.
It's just that the traitor gene-seed is locked up and no one has access to it...

The Adeptus Terra do...as other people have pointed out, as long as the High Lords say 'go ahead' (which may not be unanimous, but simply a majority), the Mechanicus can use traitor gene-seed if they wanted to, even if it causes dark rumors to spread around. As long as the Chapter remains within expected boundaries for all Chapters, the Inquisition and the Mechanicus will keep the rumors off their backs.

Blood Ravens - suspected Thousand Sons (even in-universe)
Sons of Anteus - suspected Death Guard
Minotaurs - suspected World Eaters
*just a few ideas*

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:There are none...
It's not that we know where all the chapters are from.
It's just that the traitor gene-seed is locked up and no one has access to it...

The Adeptus Terra do...as other people have pointed out, as long as the High Lords say 'go ahead' (which may not be unanimous, but simply a majority), the Mechanicus can use traitor gene-seed if they wanted to, even if it causes dark rumors to spread around. As long as the Chapter remains within expected boundaries for all Chapters, the Inquisition and the Mechanicus will keep the rumors off their backs.

Blood Ravens - suspected Thousand Sons (even in-universe)
Sons of Anteus - suspected Death Guard
Minotaurs - suspected World Eaters
*just a few ideas*

I don't think that just because there are parallels between a chapter and a legion it means that the chapter is automatically a descendent.
If the Blood Ravens are a traitor legion gene-seed then they are the only one.
That kind of thing is strongly hinted against otherwise.

They're suspected, not proven to be. They could just as easily be random mutations, since Astartes are still Human, after all, though that be extremely lame and disappointing.

Tadashi wrote:They're suspected, not proven to be. They could just as easily be random mutations, since Astartes are still Human, after all, though that be extremely lame and disappointing.

Suspected by who?
The only people that being 'suspected' by could lead to it being true are the Inquisition.
If it's suspected by fans then it doesn't count.

Actually the Blood Ravens and the Sons of Anteus (actually most of the other 21st Founding Chapters) are suspected by the Inquisition. But without evidence, and someone high up blocking inquiries at a certain point, there's nothing they can do.