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are suspected by the Inquisition. But without evidence

Not meaning to throw you under the buss, but what is the key word there?

Without evidence. So they may not be descended from traitors, but the Inquisition still keeps an eye on them whenever possible, it's just that they can't/never will build a solid case.

Could Dante be so desperate to rebuild after the events in The Blood Angels Omnibus that he would use Angron's gene-seed. Even given that other successor Chapters made heavy donations might the boys in red need "just a little extra". And what about the successors that were already stretched thin to begin with (i.e. Flesh Tearers). Would Seth be willing to rebuild with Angron's seed? I would like to think not, but the image of some shadowy Mechanicus biologis standing in an alley saying; "hey buddy pst I got what you need..." might be more than tempting to "lesser" Chapter masters.

Also in re redemption. The Emperor may forgive the soul, but the interrogator Chaplains no not forgive the flesh. scwing... shiny new bead!

Starheart wrote:Could Dante be so desperate to rebuild after the events in The Blood Angels Omnibus that he would use Angron's gene-seed. Even given that other successor Chapters made heavy donations might the boys in red need "just a little extra". And what about the successors that were already stretched thin to begin with (i.e. Flesh Tearers). Would Seth be willing to rebuild with Angron's seed? I would like to think not, but the image of some shadowy Mechanicus biologis standing in an alley saying; "hey buddy pst I got what you need..." might be more than tempting to "lesser" Chapter masters.

Also in re redemption. The Emperor may forgive the soul, but the interrogator Chaplains no not forgive the flesh. scwing... shiny new bead!

No, not the Blood Angels, or any of the inheritors of the original Legions. The pride of their legacy keeps them from doing that.

Other Chapters, I'm not sure. But the Flesh Tearers are apparently willing to just go extinct, but will fight to the end.

Tadashi wrote:Actually the Blood Ravens and the Sons of Anteus (actually most of the other 21st Founding Chapters) are suspected by the Inquisition. But without evidence, and someone high up blocking inquiries at a certain point, there's nothing they can do.

Suspected of what, being derived from Traitor Geneseed? Source please? They are heavily mistrusted by other chapters and the inquisition due to the whole nature of the 21st founding, Chimeric Geneseed and Geneseed manipulation being the main issue, but from what I can tell, there is no hint that traitor Geneseed is used. Although Fabius Bile does seem to have some form of involvement in the process.

In index astartes it specifically says 'others have pointed out that they are every bit as resilient as the Death Guard traitor legion'

I thought the "Cursed Founding"was an atempt to use traitor gene seed in new chapters.

Myself and a few buddies have decided to toss some unknown elements into our Marines Malevolent chapter we are working on.

Just some background fluff to expand and explain the general attitude and doctrines they have exhibited, not really Traitor legion but still some dabbling done 6-7,000 years back , still working out the details.

Dabbling? Like what the Emperor's Children used to do before the Heresy?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if traitor geneseed is used. I mean how hard would it be to give someone Iron Warrior geneseed and tell them it's Imperial Fists? Or Night Lords and say it is Raven Guard? Or Luna Wolves and say it is Ultramarines? Or be like the Red Scorpions and tell everyone to feth off?

King Pariah wrote:Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if traitor geneseed is used. I mean how hard would it be to give someone Iron Warrior geneseed and tell them it's Imperial Fists? Or Night Lords and say it is Raven Guard? Or Luna Wolves and say it is Ultramarines? Or be like the Red Scorpions and tell everyone to feth off?

Why shouldn't they? The Inquisition and the Mechanicus are a very pragmatic lot. Even if the Ecclesiarch on the Council of High Lords objects, if they can 'convince' enough of the others to give the go, no ones gonna stop the Adeptus Terra from using those gene-banks. As long as those in the know keep an eye on their 'proteges', then I'm things will stay dandy.

Holy Emperor now I want do make an army composed of specialists from every traitor legions gene-seed... Sort of like a loyal Black Legion... Wait that makes it sound lame... Like an awesome Special Forces team of secret super soldiers on a quest for redemption and vengeance? I'm calling Hollywood...

Legion of Damnation wrote:In index astartes it specifically says 'others have pointed out that they are every bit as resilient as the Death Guard traitor legion'

True, but it is only an implication.

Tadashi wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if traitor geneseed is used. I mean how hard would it be to give someone Iron Warrior geneseed and tell them it's Imperial Fists? Or Night Lords and say it is Raven Guard? Or Luna Wolves and say it is Ultramarines? Or be like the Red Scorpions and tell everyone to feth off?

Why shouldn't they? The Inquisition and the Mechanicus are a very pragmatic lot. Even if the Ecclesiarch on the Council of High Lords objects, if they can 'convince' enough of the others to give the go, no ones gonna stop the Adeptus Terra from using those gene-banks. As long as those in the know keep an eye on their 'proteges', then I'm things will stay dandy.

Because they wouldn't want a number of flawed Chapters running around maybe? Foundings are recorded and Geneseed can be traced via the tithe.

True if you wanted it to be kept a secret, then yeah it is possible. I just don't think the High Lords and AdMech would want to risk using potentially flawed geneseed after the Heresy and what happened with the 21st Founding.

The involvement of Bile could be why some of the Cursed Founding chapters share similarities to Traitor Legions.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Legion of Damnation wrote:In index astartes it specifically says 'others have pointed out that they are every bit as resilient as the Death Guard traitor legion'

True, but it is only an implication.

Tadashi wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Personally, I wouldn't be surprised at all if traitor geneseed is used. I mean how hard would it be to give someone Iron Warrior geneseed and tell them it's Imperial Fists? Or Night Lords and say it is Raven Guard? Or Luna Wolves and say it is Ultramarines? Or be like the Red Scorpions and tell everyone to feth off?

Why shouldn't they? The Inquisition and the Mechanicus are a very pragmatic lot. Even if the Ecclesiarch on the Council of High Lords objects, if they can 'convince' enough of the others to give the go, no ones gonna stop the Adeptus Terra from using those gene-banks. As long as those in the know keep an eye on their 'proteges', then I'm things will stay dandy.

Because they wouldn't want a number of flawed Chapters running around maybe? Foundings are recorded and Geneseed can be traced via the tithe.

True if you wanted it to be kept a secret, then yeah it is possible. I just don't think the High Lords and AdMech would want to risk using potentially flawed geneseed after the Heresy and what happened with the 21st Founding.

The involvement of Bile could be why some of the Cursed Founding chapters share similarities to Traitor Legions.

You underestimate the ruthless pragmatism of the Inquistion, or the emotionless logic of the Mechanicum. If it gives the Imperium an advantage, they'd do anything. As long as the Imperium at large doesn't know, and they're prepared to do what needs to be done should the worst happen, it's fine.

And you overestimate them. The Admech are sticklers for sticking to rules, as are the Inquisition. Now of course you will find those radicals etc who will take matters into their own hands, but without order there is only Chaos, which is something both want to avoid.

Like I said before, it could happen but I doubt it in an official founding. The High Lords would never knowingly allow Traitor geneseed to be used.

Garro was seed pre Death Guard wasnt he? Moon Raiders or something?

Im a vote traitor seed is in use, maybe not clustered, ie one in fifty, ie the nurture argument

Garro had the same gene-seed as the rest of the Death Guard (who, before reuniting with Mortarion were referred to as the "Dusk Raiders").

Traitor seed is not in use. It is in a vault, locked by the Emperor and Custodes so that only He can open it.

The Emperor ain't doing too much these days, so it's not been opened.

The Custodes are part of the Council, though. If the Council approves, then the Custodes are obliged to open it. And the Emperor's somewhat forgiving (in comparison) to His subjects. If He says it's alright to open the vaults as long as the Chapter doesn't know its origins, it would still go through even if the Council disagrees.

The Custodes answer to the Emperor, and the Emperor alone.

Tadashi wrote:The Custodes are part of the Council, though. If the Council approves, then the Custodes are obliged to open it. And the Emperor's somewhat forgiving (in comparison) to His subjects. If He says it's alright to open the vaults as long as the Chapter doesn't know its origins, it would still go through even if the Council disagrees.

The Custodes? The Custodes don't have to do ANYTHING at the behest of the High Lords. They guard the Imperial Palace, period. If the Traitor Legions' geneseed banks are inside the Imperial Palace, and the Custodes were left with orders to keep them sealed, no-one is getting to them, period.

And if the Emperor says (telepathically, of course), "Open them and let the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus use them."?

I think GW came up with the 21st Founding just for this reason. They gave us a mysterious, crazy-@$$ batch of SM Chapters that nobody knows anything conclusive about, except that they were all attempts at experimentation and "improvement" of the original gene-seed. Who is to say the experiments didn't involve traitor gene-seed? Who is to say the experiments didn't attempt to reverse-engineer the whole gene-seed thing and make all-new gene-seed from scratch?

The OP's question pops up from time to time on these forums, and the ultimate answer is always the same: 21st Founding. If they did use traitor gene-seed, it was a 21st Founding Chapter. Nobody can conclusively say traitor gene-seed was NEVER used, because GW has deliberately kept the 21st Founding shrouded in mystery. We can argue whether or not it is likely, but nobody can say with absolute certainty whether it happened or not...

Tadashi wrote:And if the Emperor says (telepathically, of course), "Open them and let the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus use them."?

Why would the Emperor want the Traitor Geneseed used?

I think the Cursed Founding would be the only way that a Traitor Legion would have any other subsequent founding. But this would be more to do with the interference of Bile rather than the Adeptus Terra or Mechanicus allowing the use of the Traitor Geneseed that is locked in stasis.

I personally think that the Traitor Geneseed wouldn't be kept in the Imperial Palace. Does it say that it is actually within the Palace complex? It could be in a special underground bunker / vault on Terra guarded by the Inquisition or the AdMech. In which case, they could probably use Traitor Geneseed.

Speaking of which, the Traitor Geneseed would be the stuff that wasn't actually inside the Traitors at the time, right? I highly doubt that the loyalists would have gone through all that effort in recovering the geneseed of their foes. As such, the Geneseed of the traitors wouldn't be tainted by Chaos, as it wouldn't have been in them at the time.

Lord of Timbraxia wrote:I personally think that the Traitor Geneseed wouldn't be kept in the Imperial Palace. Does it say that it is actually within the Palace complex? It could be in a special underground bunker / vault on Terra guarded by the Inquisition or the AdMech. In which case, they could probably use Traitor Geneseed.

It doesn't state where exactly it is kept, but it is on Terra. I don't think the issue is could they use it, more likely, would they use it. Of course they could, but would they want to risk creating chapters that would possibly cause another heresy. Founding a Chapter is also an honour, look at how the Space Wolves feel in Battle of the Fang. They want to be able to sire more Chapters. Would the Emperor consider giving the Traitor Legions the privilege of another founding?

Lord of Timbraxia wrote:Speaking of which, the Traitor Geneseed would be the stuff that wasn't actually inside the Traitors at the time, right? I highly doubt that the loyalists would have gone through all that effort in recovering the geneseed of their foes. As such, the Geneseed of the traitors wouldn't be tainted by Chaos, as it wouldn't have been in them at the time.

The Geneseed of the Traitor Legions was remarkably pure in most cases. But they had flaws which were not necessarily detected which could possibly explain why they followed Horus and were corrupted. The Emperors Children unhealthy infatuation with perfection, the Word Bearers requirement to believe and follow something.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And if the Emperor says (telepathically, of course), "Open them and let the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus use them."?

Why would the Emperor want the Traitor Geneseed used?

They were all originally His gene-seed in the first place, considering the Primarchs being His sons and all. And He's the Emperor. Who's going tell Him otherwise?

Pilau Rice wrote:
The Geneseed of the Traitor Legions was remarkably pure in most cases. But they had flaws which were not necessarily detected which could possibly explain why they followed Horus and were corrupted. The Emperors Children unhealthy infatuation with perfection, the Word Bearers requirement to believe and follow something.

That would be quite advantageous, since Word Bearer gene-seed could be used for an especially faithful Chapter, Iron Warrior gene-seed for a very xenophobic Chapter, Thousand Sons gene-seed for a very 'specialized' Chapter (hello Blood Ravens), and so on.

Pilau Rice wrote:Because they wouldn't want a number of flawed Chapters running around maybe? Foundings are recorded and Geneseed can be traced via the tithe.

Surely it is not so easy to track down a chapters origins?

If it was then the origins of the Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and Red Scorpions would not be such a mystery? How many foundings and chapters can you have before you start to lose track?

Vice_Grip wrote:Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

Maybe? The Lamenters for example were given forgivness if they undertook a pentient crusade. Though I guess that depends on how you define traitor.

Tadashi wrote:They were all originally His gene-seed in the first place, considering the Primarchs being His sons and all. And He's the Emperor. Who's going tell Him otherwise?

Fair enough, and then look at what happened with this Geneseed. Why would the Emperor want traitor Geneseed used again? You're a Space Marine, or so you keep implying, how would you feel about Geneseed of the Arch Heretic being used to found a brother Chapter?

Tadashi wrote:That would be quite advantageous, since Word Bearer gene-seed could be used for an especially faithful Chapter, Iron Warrior gene-seed for a very xenophobic Chapter, Thousand Sons gene-seed for a very 'specialized' Chapter (hello Blood Ravens), and so on.

You're missing the point, they were already very loyal to the Emperor, none more so than the Word Bearers.But these possible flaws lead them to the biggest rebellion against the Emperor there has ever ever been. Why risk something like that happening again?

Shinglepants wrote:Surely it is not so easy to track down a chapters origins?

If it was then the origins of the Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and Red Scorpions would not be such a mystery? How many foundings and chapters can you have before you start to lose track?

The paper trails of the Foundings can go on for centuries, but some do admittedly fail or are incomplete. The Admech would be able to check geneseed for it's source. Perhaps they are a mystery because they want it that way or are told to keep it that way.

Shinglepants wrote:

Vice_Grip wrote:Hmm, can a traitor make amends and rejoin the Imperium?

Maybe? The Lamenters for example were given forgivness if they undertook a pentient crusade. Though I guess that depends on how you define traitor.

A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor.
From Codex: Witch Hunters.

And on the Lamenters, they were deemed to have been led into the Badab war due to their honour and brotherhood shared with the Astral Claws, not because of pride or arrogance. Those Marines that stood with the Tyrant at the fall of Badab were executed along with the Astral Claws. They were redeemable in the eyes of the High Lords, the Astral Claws were not.

The Traitors can be redeemed, especially those that don't date back to the Heresy. these may have been born into the traitors.

Pilau Rice wrote:
The paper trails of the Foundings can go on for centuries, but some do admittedly fail or are incomplete. The Admech would be able to check geneseed for it's source. Perhaps they are a mystery because they want it that way or are told to keep it that way.

They being The Admech yes? I guess that brings about the question, why would they be told to keep it secret? How many reasons can there be for keeping your founding Legion secret?

A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor.
From Codex: Witch Hunters.

And on the Lamenters, they were deemed to have been led into the Badab war due to their honour and brotherhood shared with the Astral Claws, not because of pride or arrogance. Those Marines that stood with the Tyrant at the fall of Badab were executed along with the Astral Claws. They were redeemable in the eyes of the High Lords, the Astral Claws were not.