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gabrielhorus wrote:The Traitors can be redeemed, especially those that don't date back to the Heresy. these may have been born into the traitors.

There is no redemption when you are declared Excommunicate Traitoris

The only exception here seems to be the Soul Drinkers and whether or not the Imperium welcomes them back into the fold is still to be seen.

Shinglepants wrote:
They being The Admech yes? I guess that brings about the question, why would they be told to keep it secret? How many reasons can there be for keeping your founding Legion secret?

They being the Chapter themselves or they being one of the Ordos or even the High Lords and yes, the Admech.

You could be a 21st Founding Chapter that no one wants to hang around with or you could be an Ultramarines Founding who hates blue You could be someone who was founded from one Geneseed, wiped out, and then another founding put in your place. There's loads of reasons.

Pilau Rice wrote:
They being the Chapter themselves or they being one of the Ordos or even the High Lords and yes, the Admech.

You could be a 21st Founding Chapter that no one wants to hang around with or you could be an Ultramarines Founding who hates blue You could be someone who was founded from one Geneseed, wiped out, and then another founding put in your place. There's loads of reasons.

I totally lol'ed at the Ultras/hating blue thing. I guess I hadnt thought of those reasons.

Still, I guess there is alwaysgoing to be speculation, I cant see GW coming out and confirming one way or the other.

Pilau Rice wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Traitors can be redeemed, especially those that don't date back to the Heresy. these may have been born into the traitors.

There is no redemption when you are declared Excommunicate Traitoris

The only exception here seems to be the Soul Drinkers and whether or not the Imperium welcomes them back into the fold is still to be seen.

The Imperium has been shown to allow Heretics that never knew the Emperor into the fold, under the careful watch of the inquisition.

"the heretic can be educated, the ignorant can be shown, only the Traitor, who knew the Emperor's light and chose to turn away, only the traitor must be hated."

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:That would be quite advantageous, since Word Bearer gene-seed could be used for an especially faithful Chapter, Iron Warrior gene-seed for a very xenophobic Chapter, Thousand Sons gene-seed for a very 'specialized' Chapter (hello Blood Ravens), and so on.

You're missing the point, they were already very loyal to the Emperor, none more so than the Word Bearers.But these possible flaws lead them to the biggest rebellion against the Emperor there has ever ever been. Why risk something like that happening again?

Aye, possible flaws like somehow taking the Emperor crushing your beliefs and murdering a city to make a point badly. The traitors turned because of the Emperor's actions or the interference of the Chaos gods, not because of some inherent flaw. Besides, marines with the gene seed of the loyalist primarchs have turned as well, and that was without the excuse of following their primarch.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Traitors can be redeemed, especially those that don't date back to the Heresy. these may have been born into the traitors.

There is no redemption when you are declared Excommunicate Traitoris

The only exception here seems to be the Soul Drinkers and whether or not the Imperium welcomes them back into the fold is still to be seen.

The Imperium has been shown to allow Heretics that never knew the Emperor into the fold, under the careful watch of the inquisition.

"the heretic can be educated, the ignorant can be shown, only the Traitor, who knew the Emperor's light and chose to turn away, only the traitor must be hated."

Traitors and Heretics are two different things

the heretic can be educated, the ignorant can be shown

only the Traitor, who knew the Emperor's light and chose to turn away, only the traitor must be hated

Durza wrote:
Aye, possible flaws like somehow taking the Emperor crushing your beliefs and murdering a city to make a point badly. The traitors turned because of the Emperor's actions or the interference of the Chaos gods, not because of some inherent flaw.

Am I saying that this was the only reason why they turned? Am I even saying that this is why they turned? I am saying these flaws might be why they wouldn't use the Geneseed from Traitor Legions other than them being Traitor Legions.

From Codex Astartes

The Holy Tome of the Space Marines
The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

Durza wrote:Besides, marines with the gene seed of the loyalist primarchs have turned as well, and that was without the excuse of following their primarch.

No, but there are usually explanations for that.

Chaos influence, Alien Influence, Ultrmarine hate.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They were all originally His gene-seed in the first place, considering the Primarchs being His sons and all. And He's the Emperor. Who's going tell Him otherwise?

Fair enough, and then look at what happened with this Geneseed. Why would the Emperor want traitor Geneseed used again? You're a Space Marine, or so you keep implying, how would you feel about Geneseed of the Arch Heretic being used to found a brother Chapter?

I'm flattered. But since the end of the Siege of Terra, the Emperor's basically been gambling His own life, the lives of His descendants (Space Marines), and last but not least, that of His soldiers to ensure Mankind's survival and the Imperium's continued existence. If I'm a Space Marine, then I'm a Blood Raven, so, as long as that knowledge remains within appropriate designations, then it's fine.

Tadashi wrote:That would be quite advantageous, since Word Bearer gene-seed could be used for an especially faithful Chapter, Iron Warrior gene-seed for a very xenophobic Chapter, Thousand Sons gene-seed for a very 'specialized' Chapter (hello Blood Ravens), and so on.

You're missing the point, they were already very loyal to the Emperor, none more so than the Word Bearers.But these possible flaws lead them to the biggest rebellion against the Emperor there has ever ever been. Why risk something like that happening again?

Desperate times call for desperate measures, and the Imperium has never actually fully recovered from the Horus Heresy. Even in the best of times, the Imperium is in dire straits, so the Inquisition and even the Emperor might just sacrifice purity for an advantage. Don't forget, the Emperor forsook His own ideals of progress and tolerance by commanding Malcador the Sigilite to establish the Inquisition.

Shinglepants wrote:Surely it is not so easy to track down a chapters origins?

If it was then the origins of the Carcharodons, Blood Ravens and Red Scorpions would not be such a mystery? How many foundings and chapters can you have before you start to lose track?

The paper trails of the Foundings can go on for centuries, but some do admittedly fail or are incomplete. The Admech would be able to check geneseed for it's source. Perhaps they are a mystery because they want it that way or are told to keep it that way.

That's probably what happened to all those Chapters descended directly from the Traitor Legions, not founded from their gene-seed. After all, if a Fellowship (equivalent to a Grand Company/Chapter) from the smallest of all Legions, the Thousand Sons could have remained loyal, then there's an even greater chance that Astartes from other Traitor Legions could have remained loyal and become Chapters in the post-Heresy Imperium. Roboutte Guilliman, who governed the Imperium as part of and head of the Council after the Horus Hereys does not waste advantages. The only exceptions are the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, who were purged at Istvaan III, and whose survivors are all accounted for, having become part of the Ordo Malleus/Grey Knights afterwards.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:
Aye, possible flaws like somehow taking the Emperor crushing your beliefs and murdering a city to make a point badly. The traitors turned because of the Emperor's actions or the interference of the Chaos gods, not because of some inherent flaw.

Am I saying that this was the only reason why they turned? Am I even saying that this is why they turned? I am saying these flaws might be why they wouldn't use the Geneseed from Traitor Legions other than them being Traitor Legions.

From Codex Astartes

The Holy Tome of the Space Marines
The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

Interesting, but this would make the Blood Angels and Space Wolves gene seed just as good a candidate for being locked away. Random insanity and incompatibility with all but a single planet seems like just as bad a problem as the extreme cynicism of the IW.

Durza wrote:Besides, marines with the gene seed of the loyalist primarchs have turned as well, and that was without the excuse of following their primarch.

No, but there are usually explanations for that.

Chaos influence, Alien Influence, Ultrmarine hate.

Usually, but not always.

Tadashi wrote:
I'm flattered. But since the end of the Siege of Terra, the Emperor's basically been gambling His own life, the lives of His descendants (Space Marines), and last but not least, that of His soldiers to ensure Mankind's survival and the Imperium's continued existence. If I'm a Space Marine, then I'm a Blood Raven, so, as long as that knowledge remains within appropriate designations, then it's fine.

For arguments sake, I am an Ultramarine, I find out that you are a Thousand Son in all but name. I am going to kill you. If there are lots of chapters that were founded from Traitor Geneseed or Legions and they were discovered to be so. I am going to kill them as well, with the help from my bazillion offspring Chapters. Oh look what we have, another massive war.

Tadashi wrote:Desperate times call for desperate measures, and the Imperium has never actually fully recovered from the Horus Heresy. Even in the best of times, the Imperium is in dire straits, so the Inquisition and even the Emperor might just sacrifice purity for an advantage. Don't forget, the Emperor forsook His own ideals of progress and tolerance by commanding Malcador the Sigilite to establish the Inquisition.

But why even use Traitor Geneseed when you have loyalist Geneseed? How did the Emperor forsake his ideals, he was the creator if the Officio Assassinorum, one of the shadiest organisations under the Emperors Rule. Times had changed and he asked Malcador to create the Inquisition to combat the new threat.

there are already enough unpure Chapters running around as it is.

Tadashi wrote:That's probably what happened to all those Chapters descended directly from the Traitor Legions, not founded from their gene-seed. After all, if a Fellowship (equivalent to a Grand Company/Chapter) from the smallest of all Legions, the Thousand Sons could have remained loyal, then there's an even greater chance that Astartes from other Traitor Legions could have remained loyal and become Chapters in the post-Heresy Imperium. Roboutte Guilliman, who governed the Imperium as part of and head of the Council after the Horus Hereys does not waste advantages. The only exceptions are the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, who were purged at Istvaan III, and whose survivors are all accounted for, having become part of the Ordo Malleus/Grey Knights afterwards.

This is more likely than foundings from a Traitor Legion although I don't believe that there would have been adequate numbers to continue their existence. So we had a handful of Iron Warriors who apparently assist Dorn in fortifying Terra. We have a handful of Death Guard from the Eisenstein. We also have a mish mash of troops who possibly survived on Istvaan. Being allowed to fight with your loyalist brothers would be honour enough but allowing you to rebuild, i'm not so sure.

Durza wrote:
Interesting, but this would make the Blood Angels and Space Wolves gene seed just as good a candidate for being locked away. Random insanity and incompatibility with all but a single planet seems like just as bad a problem as the extreme cynicism of the IW.

It is

IA: ROGUE SONS
Renegade Space Marine Chapters
Whatever the effect, the servants of the High Lords are always vigilant against the signs of mutation, and the Inquisition is keen to punish any such signs of deviancy. This puts them into conflict with a great many loyal chapters, not least among them the Blood Angels and Space Wolves chapters whose geneseed is known to be as flawed in some respects as it is undoubtedly superior in others. The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy.

Durza wrote:
Usually, but not always.

Pride, arrogance, Ultramarine hate is the most prolific though

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Desperate times call for desperate measures, and the Imperium has never actually fully recovered from the Horus Heresy. Even in the best of times, the Imperium is in dire straits, so the Inquisition and even the Emperor might just sacrifice purity for an advantage. Don't forget, the Emperor forsook His own ideals of progress and tolerance by commanding Malcador the Sigilite to establish the Inquisition.

But why even use Traitor Geneseed when you have loyalist Geneseed? How did the Emperor forsake his ideals, he was the creator if the Officio Assassinorum, one of the shadiest organisations under the Emperors Rule. Times had changed and he asked Malcador to create the Inquisition to combat the new threat.

there are already enough unpure Chapters running around as it is.

The Emperor didn't found the Assassinorum, Malcador did, and it's doubtful the Emperor knew of it's full extent prior to His internment on the Golden Throne, at which point He would have learned everything from His becoming partially ascended into the warp.

Tadashi wrote:That's probably what happened to all those Chapters descended directly from the Traitor Legions, not founded from their gene-seed. After all, if a Fellowship (equivalent to a Grand Company/Chapter) from the smallest of all Legions, the Thousand Sons could have remained loyal, then there's an even greater chance that Astartes from other Traitor Legions could have remained loyal and become Chapters in the post-Heresy Imperium. Roboutte Guilliman, who governed the Imperium as part of and head of the Council after the Horus Hereys does not waste advantages. The only exceptions are the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, who were purged at Istvaan III, and whose survivors are all accounted for, having become part of the Ordo Malleus/Grey Knights afterwards.

This is more likely than foundings from a Traitor Legion although I don't believe that there would have been adequate numbers to continue their existence. So we had a handful of Iron Warriors who apparently assist Dorn in fortifying Terra. We have a handful of Death Guard from the Eisenstein. We also have a mish mash of troops who possibly survived on Istvaan. Being allowed to fight with your loyalist brothers would be honour enough but allowing you to rebuild, i'm not so sure.

As I've said Guilliman doesn't waste advantages, and I'm sure he's more than willing to let those loyalist survivors rebuild as long as they and certain members of the Ordo Malleus and the Adeptus Mechanicus keep their mouths shut.

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor didn't found the Assassinorum, Malcador did, and it's doubtful the Emperor knew of it's full extent prior to His internment on the Golden Throne, at which point He would have learned everything from His becoming partially ascended into the warp.

My mistake here. I thought Malcador created it at the behest of the Emperor. But the Emperor was well aware of their existence prior to his internment into the Golden Throne. Check out Nemesis and he tolerated it's existence.

Tadashi wrote:As I've said Guilliman doesn't waste advantages, and I'm sure he's more than willing to let those loyalist survivors rebuild as long as they and certain members of the Ordo Malleus and the Adeptus Mechanicus keep their mouths shut.

Ok well here we would have to disagree.

Actually we'll just have to disagree on everything like we always do

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor didn't found the Assassinorum, Malcador did, and it's doubtful the Emperor knew of it's full extent prior to His internment on the Golden Throne, at which point He would have learned everything from His becoming partially ascended into the warp.

My mistake here. I thought Malcador created it at the behest of the Emperor. But the Emperor was well aware of their existence prior to his internment into the Golden Throne. Check out Nemesis and he tolerated it's existence.

He knew of its existence, but not the whole picture. At least not after the Heresy, at which point He has the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus tell Him everything.

Tadashi wrote:As I've said Guilliman doesn't waste advantages, and I'm sure he's more than willing to let those loyalist survivors rebuild as long as they and certain members of the Ordo Malleus and the Adeptus Mechanicus keep their mouths shut.

Ok well here we would have to disagree.

Actually we'll just have to disagree on everything like we always do