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Right, i was playing my bro. He's fielding a Necron army, while i'm playing with Space Marines. It got to one point in the game where my Sicarus was killed, so i checked the stats of his Lychgaurd in his codex. After this, i check up on how much his army adds up to. Cause i'm a beginner, i haven't got many pieces, so we both decided on a 800 point battle. In the rule book, it says there's no issue with this cause we both agreed. SO i count up his points, and realise he's gone over the limit by over 200 points ! I say that because he's been cheating, it should be an automatic win cause if he hadn't used those 200 points, he wouldn't have been able to use one of his key players, because his army consisted of 1 heavy support, and the rest elite and HQ (i don't care about the hq limits or any rules saying he needs a certain number of troops). So this could of easily changed the course of the entire game. Was i right to say that should of been an automatic win for me ? He said, time and time again, that he had an 800 point army, and i told him more than once. Was i in the right to say this ?

I'd say null the game and replay it.

There is no rule granting an autowin to the victim of a cheating TFG.

You aren't playing by the rules too closely in any case, from what you've said, if you are ignoring the FOC chart.

Personally i'd not play someone that desperate to win at all costs, unless it's his math skills that really suck dirt If i did find out mid-play that i'd been cheated i would demand a rematch, and check his list to make sure the points were equal.

I agree with Ascalam.

This is why my opponent and I go over lists before we play. If for no other reaon than to make sure the points values are correct.

Anyone can make a math error, but being off by 200 points in more than just a little mistake.

I have edited the thread title to remove the shouting and to give people some vague idea of what the thread is about.

No it is not an auto win for you.

It is however a waste of everyone's time. Don't worry about it, just do a rematch.

Consider it an important object lesson in the idea of "Trust, but Verify". This is why players generally print and share their lists.

time wizard wrote:I agree with Ascalam.

This is why my opponent and I go over lists before we play. If for no other reaon than to make sure the points values are correct.

Anyone can make a math error, but being off by 200 points in more than just a little mistake.

It's probably because of all his high priced hq, he probably missed one out. Strange thing is, he kept saying how i was wrong, even when i went through it on my calculator. Also, a rematch would be sensible, but these games take ages, over 2 hours. I thought there might be a kind of rule that says that if one player has cheated, the other player can claim victory due to unfair play, there are rules like that in other games. We'll eventually have a rematch. Thing is, this is the first game ive been aware of Sicarius Instant Death ability, yet i'm still not getting anywhere. Next time i'll get him to write a list. Or to follow the rules properly, i'm sick of him having so many overpowered hq.

tophit101 wrote:Next time i'll get him to write a list.

Well, yeah, that would be the first problem. No written list equals no game, in my book. Relying on memory for anything bigger than a couple of hundred points is doomed to failure.


So far as this game goes, though, is it really necessary to 'claim' victory? He had too many points, you lost. It's a friendly game rather than a tournament or campaign, so ultimately how important is it to be able to say that you won the game? Just chalk it up as a game played with imbalanced sides, and ask for a written list for future games.

I think in a tournament setting if you played someone lost and then checked the list and found it to be 200 points over the limit, you would get a win in the round and the other person would probably be DQ'd. That being said if you are just playing your brother (which I know from experience is in some ways more competative) and essentialy a friendly game I would say you shouldn't claim to have won but just mock him for being a cheater and don't let him claim victory.

Also I can tell you are new to the game or don't have enough dice because at 800 points playing armies that come to the table in small numbers there is no reason for a game to take over 2 hours. the more you play the faster the games will go.

Also bear in mind that Special Characters are generally very uber, whcih is why there is a cap of 2 for most armies on the HQ slot. Allowing him to take whatever he feels like is a recipe for disaster

My advice.

Start at 750 pts. Make lists, using the FOC chart. Minimum of 1 hq and 2 troop choices before anything else.

Show each other your lists and have the calculator on hand. Have him check yours and you check his. Be sure that every upgrade/option taken is listed, and paid for.

Play using the rules. It's not that hard to play within the rules, and it teaches you the game faster than winging it.

a 750 Pt match , uninterrupted, should take less than an hour, once you both have the rules down.

tophit101 wrote:...these games take ages, over 2 hours...

Whoa. Most times I play any game it takes over 2 hours. With new players that takes even longer. Maybe your attention span is a bit low for a game as complitated a detail oriented as 40k. Yes, an 800pts game can take one hour, but with two players that do not know what they are doing, it can easily take longer. If you are interested in quicker games, play 500pts with no HQ's and 1 troop required. Remember to adjust the table size accordingly.

tophit101 wrote: i'm sick of him having so many overpowered hq.

Then use the FOC. The game really isn't balanced without it (whatever slim balance there is to the game).

You could restrict the HQ choices- no Named Characters, just the basic ones.

Rules are there for a reason. You should not ignore them simply because you don't want to use them. Pick a points level that you want to play at, and require that both players design lists that use the Force Organization Chart outlined in the basic rules. This forces both players to spend a portion of their resources on compulsory models and leaves less available points for high powered units like expensive HQ choices. You should also fully review both army lists before you begin play to ensure that neither player has over-spent.

If you do not wish to follow these steps, then you have no grounds to complain about what your opponent fields, and in all honesty if that's the case, this game is likely not for you. It takes time and effort to learn the rules, and it takes practice and forethought to build a winning list and use it properly.

If all you want to do is line up whatever models you want and throw them at one another, Warmachine has an infinitely better system for doing that. No force restrictions, and the point levels are balanced much more effectively to allow anyone to field any collection as long as they follow the points restrictions. The game uses smaller numbers too, so it's easier to spot math errors.

Sounds like you have a player that you may not want to play with for a while. You don't auto-win or lose if your points are over. The game simply doesn't count.

Pick a points value, either use a premade list or write it out there. I prefer using premade lists as it makes list tailoring harder.

Use the standard FOC, if you're not, your playing the game wrong. Unless you want to play a combat patrol or a kill-team game.

If he is bringing named HQ's at that low points cost, consider why and either bring one yourself, or just make a rule for no named HQ's

You're still learning it seems, making lists is part of playing well, knowing the rules is the other primary part. You don't need to use an internet list, but you do need to make an effective list.

Necrons fold in melee, remember this. They only have a few units that can deal in melee well, just shoot them instead.

Ascalam wrote:
My advice.

Start at 750 pts. Make lists, using the FOC chart. Minimum of 1 hq and 2 troop choices before anything else.

Show each other your lists and have the calculator on hand. Have him check yours and you check his. Be sure that every upgrade/option taken is listed, and paid for.

Play using the rules. It's not that hard to play within the rules, and it teaches you the game faster than winging it.

a 750 Pt match , uninterrupted, should take less than an hour, once you both have the rules down.

This.
(Ascalam, you get an imaginary Internet cookie for writing a good response and saving me time )

Oh and about the question of victory, I'd say no one wins. Does it really matter? His victory is a false one since he sort of cheated (by mistake or not) and your victory wouldn't really be a victory since you didn't actually win anything. Play another game with Ascalam's advice and have fun.

MMMM Imaginary Double choc chunk cookie

Fire_for_effect wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
My advice.

Start at 750 pts. Make lists, using the FOC chart. Minimum of 1 hq and 2 troop choices before anything else.

Show each other your lists and have the calculator on hand. Have him check yours and you check his. Be sure that every upgrade/option taken is listed, and paid for.

Play using the rules. It's not that hard to play within the rules, and it teaches you the game faster than winging it.

a 750 Pt match , uninterrupted, should take less than an hour, once you both have the rules down.

This.
(Ascalam, you get an imaginary Internet cookie for writing a good response and saving me time )
.

What if his browser doesn't have cookies enabled Also, what is the mission. If it was just KPs then i would say change it to if you killed over 800 points of his army you won. However, only do that if winning is that important. You may lose someone to play with and then both of you lose.

Play a rematch, go over lists before the tourney, make sure you check for adjusted point costs with the FAQs, and let it slide this time. If he does it again then you might be concerned.