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tneva82 wrote:

True that's annoying if they are mechanicum house(iirc it was mechanicum only strategem so if it's imperial house like hawkshround that's out). Way to combat that would be then get multiple ones. Also at least they then burn through their small amount of CP's(I struggle to come up with list that has more than ~5 to begin with. Knights are really starved for CP and only way to get decent amount adds soft bodies to kill)

look at my initial post. List with Bobby G, mechs and 3 knights have about 14 CP to begin with. And returns them on 5+ everytime uses it.

-Sentinel- wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

True that's annoying if they are mechanicum house(iirc it was mechanicum only strategem so if it's imperial house like hawkshround that's out). Way to combat that would be then get multiple ones. Also at least they then burn through their small amount of CP's(I struggle to come up with list that has more than ~5 to begin with. Knights are really starved for CP and only way to get decent amount adds soft bodies to kill)

look at my initial post. List with Bobby G, mechs and 3 knights have about 14 CP to begin with. And returns them on 5+ everytime uses it.

14 minus extra relics and warlord traits. Those eat up easily as knights have plenty of those. And of course assumes you don't take any ad mech relics.

Am I the only one feeling the power creep is really bad with the new knights and just dont want to even see them across from me on the board? I mean, these things just seem designed to sell the models. Glad my local tourneys only allow 1 lord of war. Still... 3 knights and Bobby g? That's stupid as far as a balanced type of game goes. Narrative I can see, matched play it's bad.

How do they start with 14CP?

tneva82 wrote:
What strategem would that be and is there anything necrons have shooting wise that doesn't really benefit from that but hurts knight? If yes start those. If he pops then switch target, if not you will shoot at will for a while without boosted shield.

It makes no sense to damage multiple knights, you must try to take one out. Two units of 10 tesla immortals buffed with MWBD playing the methodical destruction stratagem. Thats 40 shots hitting on 2+, and 4+ will trigger tesla, 3 hits instead of 1. You can easily score 50 hits with that. Wounding a knight on 5s will do 17 wounds. Tesla has no AP though (unless you are mephrit). The knight will lose 6 wounds if his armor save is 3+.
Another stratagem is extermination protocols. Played on a unit of 6 destroyers will let them re-roll all failed hit and all failed wound rolls. Because of methodical destruction they will also hit on 2+. 18 shots re-rolling all failed hit rolls, wounding on 5s, re-rolling all failed wound rolls will put another 6 wounds on a 3+ invuln sv knight. Or 9 on a knight with 4+ invuln sv.
A DDA with 3.5 shots needs some luck to do a successful hit on a knight with a 3+ invuln sv. If it works the knight loses another 3.5 wounds. The knight would lose 15.5 wounds with 4 CP in one turn. Wraith could do more damage in CC, they might kill one knight, or at least bring him down to his last bracket, which is then ignored by the knight player with a 1CP stratagem. And thats the best necrons can do.

 p5freak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What strategem would that be and is there anything necrons have shooting wise that doesn't really benefit from that but hurts knight? If yes start those. If he pops then switch target, if not you will shoot at will for a while without boosted shield.

It makes no sense to damage multiple knights, you must try to take one out. Two units of 10 tesla immortals buffed with MWBD playing the methodical destruction stratagem. Thats 40 shots hitting on 2+, and 4+ will trigger tesla, 3 hits instead of 1. You can easily score 50 hits with that. Wounding a knight on 5s will do 17 wounds. Tesla has no AP though (unless you are mephrit). The knight will lose 6 wounds if his armor save is 3+.
Another stratagem is extermination protocols. Played on a unit of 6 destroyers will let them re-roll all failed hit and all failed wound rolls. Because of methodical destruction they will also hit on 2+. 18 shots re-rolling all failed hit rolls, wounding on 5s, re-rolling all failed wound rolls will put another 6 wounds on a 3+ invuln sv knight. Or 9 on a knight with 4+ invuln sv.
A DDA with 3.5 shots needs some luck to do a successful hit on a knight with a 3+ invuln sv. If it works the knight loses another 3.5 wounds. The knight would lose 15.5 wounds with 4 CP in one turn. Wraith could do more damage in CC, they might kill one knight, or at least bring him down to his last bracket, which is then ignored by the knight player with a 1CP stratagem. And thats the best necrons can do.

Never take the DDA, random number of shots of the big cannon will do you more harm than help. Because it made you roll dices for one more stage, which adds the peobability of occurrences of bad things. In my last two games against Tsons, the side arm of the DDA actually puts nore wounds on Magnus (a similar guy to the most tough Imperial Knight (i.e. got buffed to 3++) in the aspect of toughness) than the main gun. Since throughout the game I keep rolling 1s and 2s for the number of shots for both of my DDA.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Never take the DDA, random number of shots of the big cannon will do you more harm than help. Because it made you roll dices for one more stage, which adds the peobability of occurrences of bad things. In my last two games against Tsons, the side arm of the DDA actually puts nore wounds on Magnus (a similar guy to the most tough Imperial Knight (i.e. got buffed to 3++) in the aspect of toughness) than the main gun. Since throughout the game I keep rolling 1s and 2s for the number of shots for both of my DDA.

And whats the alternative to a DDA ?

 p5freak wrote:

It makes no sense to damage multiple knights, you must try to take one out.

Yes but do you want to try taking down somebody with 3inv or 5? If he triggers it right away to first shooting why not shoot elsewhere? Unless first unit did enough damage it makes sense.

If he doesn't(fearing above) you obviously benefit by shooting as much as possible first while he has no strategem.

Fire first less important weapons that he would benefit from boosted inv save. That way you either might get all but that one squad(which might not get anything done thus you didn#t even waste it) or you get some firepower before strategem.

Worst you can do is starting with your best shot commiting you and making his decicion where to boost inv save easy. Make it hard by avoiding commiting as long as possible. There's no downside but as minimum you'll get chance to hit them few times with worse inv save even if that knight ends up target after all

Oh and getting multiple damaged into brackets does help as he can't use strategem to get all shoot normally and damaged knight loses lots of it's power

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

It makes no sense to damage multiple knights, you must try to take one out.

Yes but do you want to try taking down somebody with 3inv or 5? If he triggers it right away to first shooting why not shoot elsewhere? Unless first unit did enough damage it makes sense.

If he doesn't(fearing above) you obviously benefit by shooting as much as possible first while he has no strategem.

Fire first less important weapons that he would benefit from boosted inv save. That way you either might get all but that one squad(which might not get anything done thus you didn#t even waste it) or you get some firepower before strategem.

Worst you can do is starting with your best shot commiting you and making his decicion where to boost inv save easy. Make it hard by avoiding commiting as long as possible. There's no downside but as minimum you'll get chance to hit them few times with worse inv save even if that knight ends up target after all

Oh and getting multiple damaged into brackets does help as he can't use strategem to get all shoot normally and damaged knight loses lots of it's power

It is fairly sensible strategy, but in this particular match up, matters very little. Necrons have by nature so little capability to hurt imperial knights in the first place that dividing your fire even a little bit usually means you aren't doing much anything to either knight. If the knight player has a half a brain, he just waits until you either use a vault or similar, or pop your strategems before using his, necron shooting without strategems isn't anything a knight player will be nervous about. And merely damaging a knight is meaningless since they can just pay a bit of cp to act like they have full wounds anyway, and the best you can do in your turn is damage two knights, one which will ignore the damage anyway, everything you have accomplished is to give one knight -1 or maybe even -2 to hit when it shoots, yay. In any competitive game the knight player has AM battalion or two with him with guard warlord since imperial knights very charitably can have their own warlords at the same time, so he will never run out of cp before he has decimated you.

Necrons can't outshoot, outmelee or screen knights effectively, that is just a fact, knights have been built to take the worst eldar and tau can do and be able to tank it, necrons won't win that way.

I feel like if we're looking at knights, some of them come out to 600 points.

x3 DDA is practically mandatory, just blast the heck out of the smaller units first, reduce the amount of incoming fire quickly with each kill. I don't think its impossible. But I have not yet attempted.

Alternatively, for 600, 2x6 Destroyers can probably trade. Ctan would mess them up in melee, but would be destroyed in kind.
Warscythe Lychguard with The Strength boost strat and MWBD would do a number on one since that invuln doesn't work in melee. Realistically, for 600 points, you could get 20 of them, or 10, a support character and a delivery mechanism

How do 3 Heavy Destroyers fare with MWBD? It probably isn't fantastic but I've got a list with Stormlord doing that to three squads of them for fun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do 3 Heavy Destroyers fare with MWBD? It probably isn't fantastic but I've got a list with Stormlord doing that to three squads of them for fun.

Lets see
9 Shots
7.5 hits
(Assuming T8)
5 Wounds
No Armor saves, Ap-4
5 wounds get through
17.5 damage on average.

With a 5++ invuln
3.33 wounds failed after 5++ invuln
11.667 damage average

With a 4++ invuln
2.5 wounds failed after 4++ invuln
8.75 damage average

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Never take the DDA, random number of shots of the big cannon will do you more harm than help. Because it made you roll dices for one more stage, which adds the peobability of occurrences of bad things. In my last two games against Tsons, the side arm of the DDA actually puts nore wounds on Magnus (a similar guy to the most tough Imperial Knight (i.e. got buffed to 3++) in the aspect of toughness) than the main gun. Since throughout the game I keep rolling 1s and 2s for the number of shots for both of my DDA.

And whats the alternative to a DDA ?

Exactly. The only thing I can think of is Pylon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:How do 3 Heavy Destroyers fare with MWBD? It probably isn't fantastic but I've got a list with Stormlord doing that to three squads of them for fun.

They may do some damage, but they dont have the durability of the DDA. They cant be repaired, they cant ignore damage. They cant get -1 to QS rolls.

rvd1ofakind wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Never take the DDA, random number of shots of the big cannon will do you more harm than help. Because it made you roll dices for one more stage, which adds the peobability of occurrences of bad things. In my last two games against Tsons, the side arm of the DDA actually puts nore wounds on Magnus (a similar guy to the most tough Imperial Knight (i.e. got buffed to 3++) in the aspect of toughness) than the main gun. Since throughout the game I keep rolling 1s and 2s for the number of shots for both of my DDA.

And whats the alternative to a DDA ?

Exactly. The only thing I can think of is Pylon.

The pylon wont survive two turns against knights.

 p5freak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:How do 3 Heavy Destroyers fare with MWBD? It probably isn't fantastic but I've got a list with Stormlord doing that to three squads of them for fun.

They may do some damage, but they dont have the durability of the DDA. They cant be repaired, they cant ignore damage. They cant get -1 to QS rolls.

rvd1ofakind wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Never take the DDA, random number of shots of the big cannon will do you more harm than help. Because it made you roll dices for one more stage, which adds the peobability of occurrences of bad things. In my last two games against Tsons, the side arm of the DDA actually puts nore wounds on Magnus (a similar guy to the most tough Imperial Knight (i.e. got buffed to 3++) in the aspect of toughness) than the main gun. Since throughout the game I keep rolling 1s and 2s for the number of shots for both of my DDA.

And whats the alternative to a DDA ?

Exactly. The only thing I can think of is Pylon.

The pylon wont survive two turns against knights.

I actually think the units of 3 Heavy Destroyers would work better than DDA in providing heavy firepower. They vomit more shots than DDA for me because I always roll 1s and 2s, get the buff of MWBD, they reroll 1s to wound from Dlord. They can hide behind LOS blocking terrain to avoid IK alpha strike before jumping out to shoot back. They also have 2+ save when in terrain against Avenger Gatling Cannon, and 5++ against that huge plasma when near a cryptekh.

Actually, if knows before hand that I am going up against IK army, 3 units of 3 HD and 3 units of 6 Destroyers (w 1 HD in each squad)(5men if short in points) will be my go to choice. plus the Storm Lord, Lord and Cryptekh, then rest are just fillers.

Yep, after 3 games my thoughts are:

- DDA just don't survive any long enought. 2 games I lost 2 DDA in a first turn. Last game i didn't just because opponent prefered to concentrate on 20 necron warriors, which he should wipe with 3 knights shooting (i had 2 left cause his dice gone bad).
- Destroyers even without stratagem do more damage to knights for their points than DDA, survive longer and have alpha. They are way to go.
- Knights are overpowered, and built to raise GW sells.

Overall i don't see how necrons can win knights player with at least some degree of skill. You can try to save points with silver tide + destroyers list i think...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:
How do they start with 14CP?

Base 3, +5 for mechs - 3 troops, 2 HQ; +3 for superheavy detach of 3 knights; +2 for bobby G being warlord. Thats 13. Maybe i missed 1 somewhere or he had 13.

Disagree on them being overpowered. Necrons might have it hard but other armies have plenty of tools and there's serious hard counters available like hordes.

Problem seems to be that necrons don't have tools. Not enough good weapons available from multiple sources making rotate ion shields lot more effective than against many other armies. They are also expensivish so playing to knight strenght making them able to take out more points and don't have good horde solution. For price of a knight IG can bring like 100 guys that will take forever to clear for example. Ork boyz are pain to clear as well and gretchins? Forget it. This makes it easy to out-scenario them.

I expect knight armies be middle pack in tournaments. In top tables maybe lone knights or armigers in part soup but not as main core. More of a gatekeeper army than one to head for tournament victory.

I’m honestly more worried about a different faction that hard-counters us: Khorne Deamons.

A few days ago, I got absolutely steamrolled in Tabletop Simulator by one. A combination of a Bloodthirster, two Deamon Princes and 3x30 Bloodletters just flooded my army. The Bloodletters come in from deepstrike with a 3D6 +1“ charge.

The two biggest issues is that the Bloodletter is the ideal unit for cutting through our Warriors/Wraiths (S5 AP-3).
The other one is a Bloodthirster that can get a 3++ thanks to a relic and a strategem.

Anyone got any ideas how to counter this?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDD Khorne daemons.
I'm done. Post FAQ they're one of the worst armies in the game.

Bloodthirster is right now the joke of 40k. It's pretty much beyond me how you'd manage to lose to it. Khorne can't deepstrike turn 1. If you get first turn - they can't deepstrike for 2 full turns. Meaning you can keep them in their deployment zone be zoning out their deepstrike.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
xDDDDDDDDDDDDD Khorne daemons.
I'm done. Post FAQ they're one of the worst armies in the game.

Bloodthirster is right now the joke of 40k. It's pretty much beyond me how you'd manage to lose to it. Khorne can't deepstrike turn 1. If you get first turn - they can't deepstrike for 2 full turns. Meaning you can keep them in their deployment zone be zoning out their deepstrike.

Ah yea I forgot to mention, this was played without the beta rules. And he got 1st turn.

Doctoralex wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
xDDDDDDDDDDDDD Khorne daemons.
I'm done. Post FAQ they're one of the worst armies in the game.

Bloodthirster is right now the joke of 40k. It's pretty much beyond me how you'd manage to lose to it. Khorne can't deepstrike turn 1. If you get first turn - they can't deepstrike for 2 full turns. Meaning you can keep them in their deployment zone be zoning out their deepstrike.

Ah yea I forgot to mention, this was played without the beta rules. And he got 1st turn.

Well then you are worried about scenario that is hyper rare outside your game group.

Pre-faq pure khorne daemons would only beat screenless/low model count armies. I can see how that'd pose a threat to Necrons. Still, the Bloodthirster is a complete joke that should cost 240 pts, not 340.
You have to prevent khorne from going combat->combat->combat by spacing out units.

Against that Khorne army just take more Tesla weapons and make good use of MWBD. Also, more Scarabs for screening.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against that Khorne army just take more Tesla weapons and make good use of MWBD. Also, more Scarabs for screening.

Pretty much this. Wraiths work too as Khorne's biggest str is AP

 iGuy91 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do 3 Heavy Destroyers fare with MWBD? It probably isn't fantastic but I've got a list with Stormlord doing that to three squads of them for fun.

Lets see
9 Shots
7.5 hits
(Assuming T8)
5 Wounds
(Assuming Base 3+ Armor)
4.16667 Wounds failed after 6+ save
14.58 damage on average.

With a 5++ invuln
3.33 wounds failed after 5++ invuln
11.667 damage average

With a 4++ invuln
2.5 wounds failed after 4++ invuln
8.75 damage average

That’s really interesting didn’t think they were that potent so how do they compare to DDA then as they can’t get the MWBD boost and then you have the bonus of MD for HD and or DDA

That's 9 heavy destroyers, right? 3 full units?

torblind wrote:
That's 9 heavy destroyers, right? 3 full units?

Yeah, 3 units of 3, figured nobody would run just 3 if they were, and its closer to points-equivalent.

Compared to x3 DDA

Same Maths
(3+ Armor, T8)
Average 3.5 shots per
10.5 shots average
7 hits
4.667 Wounds
No Saves allowed
Average 3.5 damage per wound
16.33 Wounds on T8

5++ Invuln, T8
Average 3.5 shots per
10.5 shots average
7 hits
4.667 Wounds
After 5++
3.111 Wounds get through
Average 3.5 damage per wound
10.89 wounds


4++ Invuln T8
Average 3.5 shots per
10.5 shots average
7 hits
4.667 Wounds
After 4++
2.3335 wounds get through
Average 3.5 damage per wound
8.167 Wounds

So to recap
Vs T8, 3+ Armor Only
DDA 17.5
Heavy D 16.33

Vs T8, 5++
DDA 11.667
Heavy D 10.89

Vs T8 4++
DDA 8.75
Heavy D 8.167

The Doomsday Arks Mathematically at least win in every category.

Isn't there a Knight Household that gives them -1 to hit outside of 18"? Might wanna put that in the math too

Doctoralex wrote:
Isn't there a Knight Household that gives them -1 to hit outside of 18"? Might wanna put that in the math too

Yes. For one(warlord) in household that's otherwise fairly poor. I would be relieved to see that one rather than hawkshroud, raven, terryn etc really nasty ones. It also takes away the 4++ warlord trait as can't have 2 warlord traits at the same time on same knight.

Soon I will be facing 3 assassins they have been the Bain of my Warlord and my Cryptek life’s recently didn’t know they were going to be in the list not sure how to approach them my first thoughts are hide all characters until they are dealt with or take ones that heal better deathmarks, auto advance scarabs blow one up, CTan powers? Any quick wins would be much appreciated