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IC with 3 wounds has joined a squad of 5 single wound models.
The squad take 6 wounds from shooting, so all the members take a single wound with one left over, does it have to be allocated to the IC since he has multiple wounds? Would it be any different if it was 7 or 8 wounds?
Is it any different for CC wounds?

See this posting just a little farther down the page from yours:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/426263.page

I still don't understand.
So I can allocate two wounds to a one-wound model while leaving a multi-wound model with a single wound?

Joey wrote:IC with 3 wounds has joined a squad of 5 single wound models.
The squad take 6 wounds from shooting, so all the members take a single wound with one left over, does it have to be allocated to the IC since he has multiple wounds?

Depends on if shooting or CC. In shooting, yes, all models have to be allocated a wound (6 models taking 6 wounds equals one wound per model).

Would it be any different if it was 7 or 8 wounds?

Similar to above for shooting (I'll use the 8 wound as an example). 6 models taking 8 wounds equals 4 models with 1 wound and 2 models with 2 wounds. So you have two options:

1) 1 Wound on the IC and 7 wounds on the schmucks
2) 2 Wounds on the IC and 6 wounds on the schmucks

Then roll saves for each group.

Is it any different for CC wounds?

Much different. In CC, an IC must have attacks directed at him in order to be wounded as he is treated as a separate unit when blows are struck.

What about if he was part of a retinue? Like a Company Commander in his Command Squad?
The crux of my question was do EXCESS wounds, i.e. wounds that go beyond 1 per model, have to be placed on multiple wound models before you can place them on single-wound model.
So can you give a multi-wound model one wound and a single-wound model two wounds?

FYI - that's not a retinue.

And yes, you can allocate multiple wounds per model to a single wound group before allocating to a multi-wound group.

Remember, you don't allocate to models until after you roll saves.

Yes. You have 5 models, and 6 wounds. Every model gets 1 wound, and then the extra goes wherever you want. Note, this is different if you have a group of multi-wound models. Then you HAVE to assign them as to take whole models off, unless they are equipped differently; such is the shenanigans that is Nob bikers

rigeld, you allocate wounds before you roll saves.
It's roll hits, roll wounds, allocate wounds, roll saves, remove models as necessary.

Joey wrote:So can you give a multi-wound model one wound and a single-wound model two wounds?

Yes you can.

E.G.

Space Marine Librarian (2 wounds) joins a Tactical squad (5 single wound models)

Say you take 7 wounds(X will be a wound) you can distribute like this:

Lib X
Sergeant X
1Tactical marine X
2Tactical marine X
3Tactical marine X
4Tactical marine X

now you have one wound left to allocate, so you put it on the sergeant.
Lib X
Sergeant X X
1Tactical marine X
2Tactical marine X
3Tactical marine X
4Tactical marine X

The Lib (2 wounds) only rolls one save If passed he is uninjured.
The Sgt rolls 2 saves He needs to pass both to live.
The Tac marines roll 4 saves and remove one model for each failed save.

In keeping with other rules, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Thanks for the clarification, anyway.

Happyjew wrote:rigeld, you allocate wounds before you roll saves.
It's roll hits, roll wounds, allocate wounds, roll saves, remove models as necessary.

You allocate wounds to 'wound groups' (of identical models); then you roll saves; THEN, those actual unsaved wounds are applied to models WITHIN those wound groups. This is how the 'remove multi-wound models' rule works.

So if you have (in the OPs example) a 6-man unit of 5 identical one-wound models and one different 3-wound model, you have six models, in two wound groups.

If they take 6 wounds, the 5-man wound group gets 5, and the IC gets 1. Saves are rolled. The IC will take a maximum of one wound.

If they take 7 wounds, the 5-man wound group gets 5, the IC gets 1, then you get to pick which one takes the extra.

If they take 8 wounds, the 5-man wound group gets 5, the IC gets 1, then you get to pick whether the IC takes ONE of the extras, or not. The 5-man wound group takes either 6 or 7 of the 8.

Only if the unit suffers a grand total of 13 wounds can the IC be allocated 3, and if you wanted to, you could prevent him from having to take 3 until the 18th wound.

Joey wrote:In keeping with other rules, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Thanks for the clarification, anyway.

Main rules, page 39 under allocating wounds, if all the models are the same there's no problem, but if the models are not the same in gaming terms then the, "...wounds are allocated against the target unit by the controlling player, wxactly like the fire of a single enemy unit during the Shooting phase...".

Joey wrote:In keeping with other rules, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Thanks for the clarification, anyway.

It makes perfect sense, because Wound Allocation doesn't care about how many wounds the model has, how tough they are, what armour they are wearing, or what flavour toothpaste they used.

All that matters for Wound Allocation is that the wounds are distributed evenly. So you distribute one to each model, and then you distribute a second to each model, and so on until there are not more wounds to allocate. The order that you distribute them is completely up to you.

Joey wrote:In keeping with other rules, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Thanks for the clarification, anyway.

the 40k rule set rarely 'makes sense'

but then again you are talking about 8 foot super soldiers wearing almost impervious armor killing green skinned orks and alien buglike lifeforms with space ships, chainsaws on a stick, hammers sheathed in energy fields and orbital bombardment, and people with psychic abilities that can teleport through the warp and meltaguns that can reduce the mightiest tanks to slag in a fraction of a second...

The world is pretty fantastical to say the least.

Especially since said 8-ft super soldiers are roughly the same size as an average human.

Happyjew wrote:Especially since said 8-ft super soldiers are roughly the same size as an average human.

Not if you look at the drawings of them they aren't

I don't go off of drawings of super soldiers, I go off the models used to represent said super soldiers.

Happyjew wrote:I don't go off of drawings of super soldiers, I go off the models used to represent said super soldiers.

Don't, the models are horribly out of scale.

If you go by the models then maybe 5 marines can ride in a Rhino...

Go by the drawings in the Deathwatch book, they have better scale.

Well seeing as how we're talking about 40k not making any sense...

Happyjew wrote:rigeld, you allocate wounds before you roll saves.
It's roll hits, roll wounds, allocate wounds, roll saves, remove models as necessary.

You allocate wounds to wound groups, roll saves, remove models. You don't allocate to specific models.

I'm not seeing "allocate wounds to wound groups" anywhere. Is there a page number you can give me please? Everything I'm seeing specifies models, not wound groups.

You effectively "allocate wounds to wound groups" since you allocate wounds to models which then collectively roll for wounds by wound group.

My request still hasn't been answered. Where does it say you allocate to "Wound groups".
Page 25, left column, 4th paragraph under Complex Units, states that you allocate wounds to each model.

Sigh...


And then you roll each models saves individually? No.
If there's 5 models in the group, you allocate 5 wounds to that group, roll saves, remove models. You do not roll once for each model.

Happyjew wrote:My request still hasn't been answered. Where does it say you allocate to "Wound groups".
Page 25, left column, 4th paragraph under Complex Units, states that you allocate wounds to each model.

You allocate wounds to specific models and then roll saves in groups of identical models (IE "wound groups").

I never said you roll saves for each model. I said you allocate wounds to each model. You're claiming you allocate wounds to wound groups.

rigeld2 wrote:Remember, you don't allocate to models until after you roll saves.

According to you, you don't allocate wounds until after rolling saves, So do you take all your armor saves on the majority armor? No.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So if you have (in the OPs example) a 6-man unit of 5 identical one-wound models and one different 3-wound model, you have six models, in two wound groups.

Using this example, if you allocate to "wound groups" then the 3-wound model group would have to have 3 wounds, and the identical 1-wound model group would have 3 wounds. Which is not how it works.

Nungunz, I never said anything about rolling saves. Except for 1 post, where I list the sequence of events (and I never said anything about individual models in that part of the post), I've been talking about just the wound allocation portion of the rules.

Happyjew wrote:

Using this example, if you allocate to "wound groups" then the 3-wound model group would have to have 3 wounds, and the identical 1-wound model group would have 3 wounds. Which is not how it works.

Nungunz, I never said anything about rolling saves. Except for 1 post, where I list the sequence of events (and I never said anything about individual models in that part of the post), I've been talking about just the wound allocation portion of the rules.

Incorrect; you misread the example.

My talking about allocating to wound groups is explaining how the rule has to work. If you literally allocated wounds to each model, then multi-wound, identical models would all have to roll their saves separately and track wounds separately; since that isn't how it works, you necessarily have to track wound groups for the whole length of the process. Make sense?

Wounds are allocated to wound groups on an X-to-Y basis, where X is the number of models in the larger group and Y is the number of models in the smaller. If you have a 3-man wound group and a 1-man wound group, then you still have to allocate four wounds (3 to the larger and 1 to the smaller) before you can allocate another to either. Wounds are still counted 'by model', as it were; you simply can't actually associate them with individual models within the wound groups yet, because of how multi-wound models works.

Joey wrote:IC with 3 wounds has joined a squad of 5 single wound models.
The squad take 6 wounds from shooting, so all the members take a single wound with one left over, does it have to be allocated to the IC since he has multiple wounds?

No, extra wounds can be allocated to any member of the unit. Only if you take enough wounds for each model to be wounded twice would you have to allocate one to the IC, regardless of how many wounds the IC has. Wounds are allocated on a model basis not wound basis.

Would it be any different if it was 7 or 8 wounds?

No. If it were 12 wounds the IC would have to make a second save (since there are 6 models in your example unit.

It builds exactly like monopoly houses. Each model in the unit is a property, you must place one wound on a model before you can place a second wound on another.

THEN wound allocation groups take effect since you roll all like models wounds at once. What this means is if you have a marine, a sergeant, and a marine with a plasma gun, and they take 8 wounds, you must place 2 on each model, and then a third on 2 of them. Let's say for this example those go on the marine and sergeant, so you have 3 on the marine, 3 on the sergeant, and 2 on the plasma gun. This means you pick up 3 dice for the marine and roll them. Even if all 3 wounds go unsaved, you only remove the marine model, despite over killing it by 2 wounds. It also means that the marine or sergeant models must make 3 successful saves in order to survive.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:No. If it were 12 wounds the IC would have to make a second save (since there are 6 models in your example unit.

That is not correct. The unit and the IC are considered separate units when blows are struck in close-combat. Wounds dealt to the unit cannot be allocated to the IC and wounds dealt to the IC cannot be allocated to the unit (only applies to close combat)

If the unit suffered 12 wounds in CC, then the unit must roll 12 saves (provided they aren't complex of course). Say they fail 7 saves. All 5 models in the unit die. The 2 leftover failed wounds are wasted and do not go over to the IC.

Conversely if the IC took 12 wounds in cc and then failed 7 saves the left over 4 unsaved wounds are wasted and do not go over to the unit.

If you want to hurt something in close combat you must specifically target the unit (be it an IC or a squad or both) with attacks.