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++EDIT++

Which of these two lists should I use?

Grey Knights #1
Crowe
10 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 4 Psycannons, Rhino with Dozer Blades & Searchlight
10 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 4 Psycannons, Rhino with Dozer Blades & Searchlight
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino with Searchlight
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino with Searchlight
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino with Searchlight
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino with Searchlight
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight
Total – 2000

Grey Knights #2
Crowe
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
10 Grey Knight Interceptors - Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1999

Additionally, I own a Dreadknight. However, I think they're a bit expensive for what they do.

++END EDIT++
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++ORIGINAL POST++

Last year at Wargamescon, I took Grey Knights. Before you moan and groan, I should note that I took a mixed Terminator list. Draigo, 5 Paladins, 20 Terminators, and 3 Dreadnoughts. I suppose my poor list selection for tournaments has a track record, given that I took Necrons to Alamo GT last year.

With that said, I was looking at army builder recently and had one of these moments.

5 Terminators - 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Psycannon - 225
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo - 225

Given the ludicrous amount of low AP weaponry, I was failing a lot of 5+ invulnerables. Both squads listed above can make use of cover, so it's moot to argue about a 4+ cover save. In combat, my Terminators were run over by Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield wielding Terminators and Thunderwolves.

Recently, I've finished my 2000 Dark Eldar. I've been on a break, as I've been frustrated with my dice rolling. In the meantime, I've been selling off armies I have no interest in playing anymore. With that said, I think it's about time I take another look at Grey Knights. Call Purifier Spam what you will. I love rolling lots of dice. Case in point: I own 8 Venoms.

Here is what I was thinking for the core of the list:

Grey Knights
Crowe
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1005

This leaves me 995 points after meeting the minimum force organization chart requirements.

My thoughts on a few sections of the codex:

HQ: I have room to fit one more, but I don't want anything in Terminator armor. However, I can see where a Librarian could be useful. I certainly don't need another Brotherhood Champion.
Elite: Techmarines could be an excellent supplement to a large squad of Purifiers in a Rhino. Venerable Dreads are nice, but a bit expensive for my tastes. I already own a Vindicare model, but I've had bad results with him due to cover saves. I am open to the thought of fielding him again.
Troops: I see no reason to field regular Strike Squads, especially after paying the Crowe tax.
Fast: I'm not interested in fielding any Interceptors or Storm Ravens. I'm just not fond of either, nor do I think they would particularly benefit the list.
Heavy:

Basically, I'm looking at spending the remaining 995 points on more Purifiers and those wonderful Elite slots.

Grey Knights
Crowe
Vindicare Assassin
Techmarine - Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
8 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1982

As you can see, I have 18 points to spare. This is a very rough draft and I'm doing the math in my head here. Please correct me if the total is wrong.

The list sports 16 Kill Points. It's less than the 24 I have with Dark Eldar, so that's good!

The larger squad with the Techmarine should be able to push enemies off their own objectives and deal with the tougher enemy squads. Ideally, the Techmarine will bolster a ruin in my area, which contains or is near an objective. This'll help the Vindicare as well.

I'm a bit dubious about the Vindicare and I don't know if the 6th Purifier in each squad is a good idea or not. Personally, I like it.

Thoughts?

For a second HQ, if you don't want anything in TDA, just take an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with PA, a power weapon and grenades. That way you can put it in another group of purifiers to give them a little more punch in CC.

I'd drop the vindicare. Any player worth his salt will shoot that thing to death first turn.

6 man purifiers are my unit of choice because you get that extra halberd in there.

Just a couple of ideas to throw around.

Have you considered slimming down the size to mount some assault cannons on your razorbacks w/ psybolts?

I don't really think the Assault Cannons are worth it. They're incredibly expensive.

I'm not sure what I would do with the points from the Vindicare.

I could do something like this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
8 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
8 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1989

Or this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
Techmarine - Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
Techmarine - Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
8 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
8 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1994

I think 8 purifier units are not that great.
Either go for 10 w/ 4 psycannons, or for 6 in a psyback.

As for the nade spammer, I tend to favor inquisitors over techmarines.

I can almost fit this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
10 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 4 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 2015

Gotta lose 15 points. I could switch each Razorback Hammer to a Halberd or drop 1 Purifier.

Well, its a lumbering army. IG will not have a hard time to stop your transports while they are advancing. Its too mono-dimensional.

Not a lot I can do about that. I generally outright refuse to play IG in casual games. If someone wants to be "that guy" at a tournament, they are more than welcome in my eyes. I'm aware I will probably get stomped. At best, I can close to 24" ASAP and do what I can.

How would you suggest tweaking the list? I think the latest rendition is pretty solid, except for being 15 points over.

In my experience, fast moving Dreadknights can make the difference. The enemy has to deal with them asap and so leaves you time to approach the enemy front ranks.

I would recommend switching one squad of purifiers and Psyback out for a dreadknight with a teleporter, this would give you a distraction/vehicle killer, that is basically a giant terminator. This would give drop you a few points so you have 10 ish points left, getting rid of those extra points, and benefiting you.(Do you NEED 6 scoring units??)

I am still a bit stuck on this list.

I don't think Dreadknights are worth the cost either.

Suggestions?

Wolf 11x wrote:Not a lot I can do about that. I generally outright refuse to play IG in casual games. If someone wants to be "that guy" at a tournament, they are more than welcome in my eyes.

Wait a second, you're posting here, asking for advice on making one of the strongest lists in the current metagame (purifier spam with razorbacks) and you refuse to play IG? This doesn't sound anything like reasonable behaviour to me. Either you're interested in making a competitive army, and play all comers, or you build yourself a nice fluffy list that doesn't need to spam the best units in the codex, and play casually among your friends.


That said, the biggest weakness in your list is a lack of ranged firepower. You've already identified this. So have a lot of other people. The key, here, is to find what you can tweak to get that ranged firepower, and the answer can be found on the top of your razorbacks.

Stick some lascannons on there, and you'll find that you beat IG more than you lose. Because a shot that doesn't kill his tank still stops it shooting back, whereas you have fortitude.

If you really wanna pewpew, then I'd go for this:

Crowe 150

Malleus Inquisitor, TDA+Psycannon 80

(7) Warrior henchmen 28

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo, searchlight 51

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo, searchlight 51

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 1x Hammer 145
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

(5) Purgation squad, 2x Psycannon 140
Razorback, TLHB, Psybolt ammo 50

= 2000

19 Psycannons. 9 Hulls. 45 marines, a couple of 2+ guys and some throwaway GEQ's you can use as bubblewrap.

Pewpew.

Redbeard wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote:Not a lot I can do about that. I generally outright refuse to play IG in casual games. If someone wants to be "that guy" at a tournament, they are more than welcome in my eyes.

Wait a second, you're posting here, asking for advice on making one of the strongest lists in the current metagame (purifier spam with razorbacks) and you refuse to play IG? This doesn't sound anything like reasonable behaviour to me. Either you're interested in making a competitive army, and play all comers, or you build yourself a nice fluffy list that doesn't need to spam the best units in the codex, and play casually among your friends.

Games against IG are never enjoyable. I must wonder if you play IG yourself or simply have a distaste for Purifier Spam. Either way, I don't enjoy playing IG and simply choose not to in non-tournament games.

That said, the biggest weakness in your list is a lack of ranged firepower. You've already identified this. So have a lot of other people. The key, here, is to find what you can tweak to get that ranged firepower, and the answer can be found on the top of your razorbacks.

Stick some lascannons on there, and you'll find that you beat IG more than you lose. Because a shot that doesn't kill his tank still stops it shooting back, whereas you have fortitude.

Interesting. So you don't feel that the three DakkaDreads and Psycannons are enough?

I believe I'm going to go with this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1995

I haven't quite decided on the last 5 points.

Wolf 11x wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote:Not a lot I can do about that. I generally outright refuse to play IG in casual games. If someone wants to be "that guy" at a tournament, they are more than welcome in my eyes.

Wait a second, you're posting here, asking for advice on making one of the strongest lists in the current metagame (purifier spam with razorbacks) and you refuse to play IG? This doesn't sound anything like reasonable behaviour to me. Either you're interested in making a competitive army, and play all comers, or you build yourself a nice fluffy list that doesn't need to spam the best units in the codex, and play casually among your friends.

Games against IG are never enjoyable. I must wonder if you play IG yourself or simply have a distaste for Purifier Spam. Either way, I don't enjoy playing IG and simply choose not to in non-tournament games.

I play Guard. I also play Grey Knights. And Orks, and Chaos Daemons and Chaos Marines and Sisters and Eldar, and probably a few others too.

Refusing to play against something is not a good way to learn to beat it. I don't particularly like any sort of spam army, whether it be chimeras, psybacks, purifiers, or what have you. I see little difference in playing against a guard army that's going to shoot me off the table or playing against a purifier army that is going to do the same. And that's kind of the point I'm trying to make here. You have so many psycannons and dakka dreads that an opponent is going to feel much the same playing against your firepower as you feel playing against a guard army. It's a little hypocritical to say you have no fun playing against guard, and yet ask for help designing your list that is just as unfun to play against. Hence the comment - if you want to play for fun, make a more fun list. And if you want to play competitively, then play against competitive guard armies as well. Of course it is your choice, but you're going to find that you're subjected to the same. People will simply refuse to play against your purifiers. Is that the sort of environment that is conducive to anything, fun or competitive?

Interesting. So you don't feel that the three DakkaDreads and Psycannons are enough?

Three dakka dreads are your ranged firepower. Psycannons are 24", and as such are not hard to outrange. They're enough for most armies, but maybe this is why you don't enjoy playing against guard - they can outrange you, and once your dreads are dead, then what?

Redbeard wrote:Refusing to play against something is not a good way to learn to beat it. I don't particularly like any sort of spam army, whether it be chimeras, psybacks, purifiers, or what have you. I see little difference in playing against a guard army that's going to shoot me off the table or playing against a purifier army that is going to do the same. And that's kind of the point I'm trying to make here. You have so many psycannons and dakka dreads that an opponent is going to feel much the same playing against your firepower as you feel playing against a guard army. It's a little hypocritical to say you have no fun playing against guard, and yet ask for help designing your list that is just as unfun to play against. Hence the comment - if you want to play for fun, make a more fun list. And if you want to play competitively, then play against competitive guard armies as well. Of course it is your choice, but you're going to find that you're subjected to the same. People will simply refuse to play against your purifiers. Is that the sort of environment that is conducive to anything, fun or competitive?

I take it as a compliment if an opponent thinks my army is too strong. I know which of my friends enjoy playing at top-level of play and which would rather have a casual game. I have multiple armies myself as well and I am well aware that many players can't stand Purifier spam. I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not particularly concerned with what my opponent thinks of my army in a tournament environment. In a non-tournament environment, I'm completely ok with an opponent refusing to face a particular army of mine. This has happened before and I'm sure it will in the future. In the same sense, I don't feel bad about declining a game against IG outside of a tournament environment.

Three dakka dreads are your ranged firepower. Psycannons are 24", and as such are not hard to outrange. They're enough for most armies, but maybe this is why you don't enjoy playing against guard - they can outrange you, and once your dreads are dead, then what?

My issue with Guard is they take an eternity per player turn and rarely actually move. I really can't explain why it bothers the heck out of me. Occasionally, I see a Chimera shuffle. Alternatively, I see 300 some odd infantry. It just seems to me that Guard take forever per turn and Guard players tend to wildly over-analyze their targets.

I don't mind cookie-cutter lists at all, as the game in and of itself leans towards spamming the best units available. It's been that way since I started playing in 3rd.

Do you have any particular thoughts on my latest list?

I have been playing both a Crowe Purifier List and a Mordrak Term list or Term/Purifiers. But this is the list I find myself using most often with Crowe.

Crowe
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
Venerable Pysrifle Dreadnought
Pysrifle Dreadnought
Psyrifle Dreadnought
Nemesis Dreadknight - Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator)

2000 on the nose!

A lot of people in this post seem to be stuck on the Razorbacks. I love Razors, but to me, to make them worth a crap you need the bigger guns on them, but by then you are too expensive. So I just don't use them, I will just shoot the Psycannons out of the top of the vehicle.

Others want the techmarine or the inquistors for the grenades. I like the -1 toughness ones, but the random affect, eh... its too hard to roll a 2 when I need it to make a difference so I just don't use them.

Crowe
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
6 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 1 MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
Venerable Pysrifle Dreadnought
Pysrifle Dreadnought
Psyrifle Dreadnought
Nemesis Dreadknight - Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator)

Those MSU lists generally struggle in KP missions. How about taking 10 men Purifier squads in Rhinos? You can split them in objective based games anyway.

Wolf 11x wrote:
Do you have any particular thoughts on my latest list?
...
Crowe
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1995

Not so much. My experience with small purifier units is that they die too fast. I haven't run them in these numbers, but you have 30 MEQ bodies. You may dish out punishment, but I don't know how easily you'll take it. How well can it handle other Grey Knight variants? Paladins? What about other terminator armies? Loganwing, or FAQed Deathwing? You appear to have a lack of AP2 stuff.

Roguejm11 wrote:A lot of people in this post seem to be stuck on the Razorbacks. I love Razors, but to me, to make them worth a crap you need the bigger guns on them, but by then you are too expensive. So I just don't use them, I will just shoot the Psycannons out of the top of the vehicle.

I think three twin-linked S6 shots on a Razorback for a mere 10 points more than a Rhino is great!

How well does your Dreadknight work? I think they're overcosted, so I have a hard time justifying using mine.

wuestenfux wrote:Those MSU lists generally struggle in KP missions. How about taking 10 men Purifier squads in Rhinos? You can split them in objective based games anyway.

I don't think taking a few 10-man squads is going to particularly help in KPs. Even though you'd have a few less KPs, you'd still be in trouble if you face Draigowing / what have you. If you face another MSU army, it doesn't matter.

Redbeard wrote:Not so much. My experience with small purifier units is that they die too fast. I haven't run them in these numbers, but you have 30 MEQ bodies. You may dish out punishment, but I don't know how easily you'll take it. How well can it handle other Grey Knight variants? Paladins? What about other terminator armies? Loganwing, or FAQed Deathwing? You appear to have a lack of AP2 stuff.

I don't really see how I could get AP2 into the list. The only real option is different RB turrets, which I don't think are worth it.

I think I'll do fine against Terminator-based armies. I have an extremely high volume of shots and everything, Storm Bolters included, is good against infantry. I can focus pressure on one unit at a time and multi-charge if necessary. The Ven Dreads are great for tying up scarier enemy units.

Here's a question. Why razorbacks, with 5 man purifier squads?

As I said before, you have 30 bodies, and it's not too hard to kill 30 men, especially at 2k. My inclination is to try and protect them in a transport, as you seem to do. But that means that they're not shooting. Either you're safe, and harmless, or you're vulnerable, but dangerous. Not so good.

Why not make them rhinos? You save 60 points across the board. You lose 3 S6 shots/turn, but gain the ability to employ those psycannons while still safe.

From what I've seen of GK lists, the ones that do well are using more expensive razorbacks with less expensive (and often inconsequential) henchmen units. It feels like a waste to drop purifiers in a vehicle they can't shoot out of.

Redbeard wrote: Either you're safe, and harmless, or you're vulnerable, but dangerous. Not so good.

That's actually the first very solid argument I've seen in favor of Rhinos.

Considering what you and wuestenfux have added, I'm thinking more like this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
10 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 4 Psycannons, Rhino
10 Purifiers - 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 4 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1981

19 points to spare. I have one less Venerable Dreadnought, but 10 more bodies. Additionally, this means I can split to 8 scoring units in objective games.

Redbeard wrote:

Three dakka dreads are your ranged firepower. Psycannons are 24", and as such are not hard to outrange. They're enough for most armies, but maybe this is why you don't enjoy playing against guard - they can outrange you, and once your dreads are dead, then what?

Once your Dreads are dead, you drive up to within 24" with your Purifiers and say hi?

Seriously, the argument that people always quote on why having only Psycannons in your army is bad (ie. Guard/BT/Loganwing/whatever will outrange you) is just stupid. Think about it for a second. You really think that the GK player is gonna sit 48" away scratching his head thinking "I wonder why my army is getting shot apart?" for the whole game?

Of course not.

He's gonna deploy centrally if going first (right across from you if going second) drive 12" on t1 and either:

a. Jump out right away and have an effective range of ~39" with his Psycannons of t1 (12" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range)

or

b. Stay inside, drive 12" again on t2 and have an effective range of 51" (24" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range).

Either way he'll be popping smoke on t1 after driving 12".

Pitched battle deployment, if the GK player went first, deploying centrally you can reach almost anywhere on the board with a 39" range. Even if your opponent castled up right in the corner, most of the GK units will be in range (especially against a huge IG parking lot, they take up quite a bit of space, you can't fit 12 Chimera hulls into a 5"x5" square in the corner).
Going second he'll have everything in range t1, as he can deploy everything straight across from you, and 12" deployment+39" range = oh hi, anywhere on the board right across from me.

Spearhead makes it a bit more hard, but with 49" range with 2 turns movement the GK player will be in range by t2 at the latest, meaning you get one shooting phase if going second, 2 if going first.

Of course though, you'll break some of those Razors carrying marines around, meaning those marines will take a while longer to get in range.

But what happens when there are 12 Razors driving at you, all either carrying guys with Psycannons or toting Psycannons on the Razor themselves? (ie. Assault cannon razor w/ Psybolt ammo). You really think you're gonna break 12 razors in one shooting phase, 2 tops?

Remember, stunning doesn't help, hi Fortitude.

Think outside the box, people. You don't even necessarily need Dreads if you build your list right. Grey Knights excel at 24". If you maximise your shooting at that range, and make sure you've got enough guys to get there, well, now we're talking

Also, on the topic of Rhinos over Razors, Razors > Rhinos ever time IMO.

Reason being, Grey Knights all carry Storm bolters, which are great torrent weapons. Every time you shoot you PAGK at an infantry squad and don't shoot your Storm bolters, you're wasting shots ie. not performing at maximum efficiency. Thus, you wan't to get those SB's firing too, and you gotta be outside your vehicle. So, why not pay 10pts extra and get an extremely handy gun for torrenting infantry, which also can suppress enemy Razors in a pinch, and when deployed en masse actually puts out a very respectable amount of firepower for very minimal cost.

Think about it this way. You've got 9 Rhinos. You pay 90pts, and gain 27 twin linked str6 shots. That's a bargain.

Also, even if you did want to keep your PAGK inside their vehicles, its inevitable that at least some will get shot out anyway, meaning that you'll offer targets for your opponents anti-infantry anyway at some point.

Its far more effective to just drive all your PAGK forward in their Razors, pop smoke, jump out and shoot. You're presenting around 30-35 MEQ bodies to your opponent, which not many armies can put down very quickly, especially considering that you should be able to kill/suppress key targets when you jump out and shoot, reducing return firepower. Next turn, you'll be firing your Psycannons in heavy profile, and all your Razors will add their shooting in too.

Sorry for the wall of text. Any of this make sense? =)

I appreciate the extensive reply. Factoring vehicle movement into effective range is something I had not considered up to this point.

Your thoughts on RBs vs. Rhinos favor why I initially wrote all RBs into the list.

I believe you would favor this list:

Grey Knights
Crowe
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1995

Do you have suggestions on how to tweak it?

Always take the max amount of Psycannons you can, those 3 Purifier squads should have 2 Psycannons each as well. You can get the points by downgrading one of the Ven Dreads to a regular.

If you like Dreads then that list is good, there's not really anything that can be done to make it better.

With my GK lists I personally like to maximise the firepower I can bring to bear at 24", as that's where Grey Knights are best at. So I'd take 3 Purgation squads w/ 2x Psycannon in Razors, to maximise your Psycannon count and the amount of shots you bring at 24", and the amount of hulls and MEQ bodies you bring into midfield.

Jabbdo wrote:Always take the max amount of Psycannons you can, those 3 Purifier squads should have 2 Psycannons each as well. You can get the points by downgrading one of the Ven Dreads to a regular.

If you like Dreads then that list is good, there's not really anything that can be done to make it better.

With my GK lists I personally like to maximise the firepower I can bring to bear at 24", as that's where Grey Knights are best at. So I'd take 3 Purgation squads w/ 2x Psycannon in Razors, to maximise your Psycannon count and the amount of shots you bring at 24", and the amount of hulls and MEQ bodies you bring into midfield.

Argh. That was a typo. I've edited the above list as well. Each squad was supposed to have 2 Psycannons.

I really do like the Dreads I'm just not sure that two Ven Dreads are worth it. With that said, I'm not sure what to do with the points I gain by dropping one to a Regular and losing the other entirely.

Something like this:

Grey Knights
Crowe
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1749

He's gonna deploy centrally if going first (right across from you if going second) drive 12" on t1 and either:

a. Jump out right away and have an effective range of ~39" with his Psycannons of t1 (12" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range)

or

b. Stay inside, drive 12" again on t2 and have an effective range of 51" (24" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range).

Well, part b needs explanation. The tank can move 6 inches only when the unit inside wants to fire.

wuestenfux wrote:

He's gonna deploy centrally if going first (right across from you if going second) drive 12" on t1 and either:

a. Jump out right away and have an effective range of ~39" with his Psycannons of t1 (12" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range)

or

b. Stay inside, drive 12" again on t2 and have an effective range of 51" (24" move + 2" disembark + 1" base + 24" Psycannon range).

Well, part b needs explanation. The tank can move 6 inches only when the unit inside wants to fire.

He's assuming you disembark, especially given that he uses Razorbacks. The math in parentheses explains it.

Wolf 11x wrote:
Grey Knights
Crowe
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1749

Going to use this as the example...

Scenerio is this: Pitched Batttle, Kill points game. we will keep it simple, the Grey Knight list above is going first and initiative is not stolen. What do you do?

Personally I would have tried to deploy myself with some cover for my rhinos but I would have tried to keep them as close to 12'' up the board as I can. On first turn, I would drive myself up the table 12'' which hopefully is putting me anywhere between 24'' and 30'' from the enemies table edge. Smoke every rhino I can to give myself my 6 up cover saves against any shooting. Then use the 3 dreads, I am not looking to blow 3 things up, honestly, I am looking at what models can affect my 6 rhinos the most? Predator Annilator, Leman Russ, etc. I am looking to keep you from shooting, a stunned result, or wrecked + is awesome there. Because if I can minimize your return fire.... I have 12 Psycannons that can hit virtually the ENTIRE board without having to move next round, which means I can shoot 8 str 7 rending shots from each rhino. And depending on my results from that, I have done what I needed to do to make this game start to turn bad for the guy I am playing against.

The reason I bring this up is because....YOU CANT DO THAT. You took Razorbacks with Heavy bolters.... and they cost more...
So instead of shooting 12 pyscannons... either 24 shots if they ALL move again, or 48 shots if you don't move that are str 7 rending. you have 18 str 6 shots.

Just saying... bad choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote:
Do you have any particular thoughts on my latest list?
...
Crowe
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 3 Halberds, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
5 Purifiers - 2 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Razorback with Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Dreadnought - 2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Total - 1995

Not so much. My experience with small purifier units is that they die too fast. I haven't run them in these numbers, but you have 30 MEQ bodies. You may dish out punishment, but I don't know how easily you'll take it. How well can it handle other Grey Knight variants? Paladins? What about other terminator armies? Loganwing, or FAQed Deathwing? You appear to have a lack of AP2 stuff.

Paladins would be difficult to kill im sure for anyone, but the fact remains they have a 5+ invuln like anyone else. And the standard Draigo wing doesn't have a psyic hood to stop me doing the same things to you, Hammerhand.

Loganwing... have never once seen anyone actually play that army in 3 years I have played this game.

Deathwing... Psyrifles priortize the predators or speeders in the back. And the terminators that drop I just saturate you with shooting that anyone would do against a terminator army. Force you to make armor and invunl saves. If we have to get in CC, I have power weapons and I go first every single time, which any player knows you cannot rely on at all, but it helps even any odds that might have been against me.

Personally I would have tried to deploy myself with some cover for my rhinos but I would have tried to keep them as close to 12'' up the board as I can. On first turn, I would drive myself up the table 12'' which hopefully is putting me anywhere between 24'' and 30'' from the enemies table edge. Smoke every rhino I can to give myself my 6 up cover saves against any shooting. Then use the 3 dreads, I am not looking to blow 3 things up, honestly, I am looking at what models can affect my 6 rhinos the most? Predator Annilator, Leman Russ, etc. I am looking to keep you from shooting, a stunned result, or wrecked + is awesome there. Because if I can minimize your return fire.... I have 12 Psycannons that can hit virtually the ENTIRE board without having to move next round, which means I can shoot 8 str 7 rending shots from each rhino. And depending on my results from that, I have done what I needed to do to make this game start to turn bad for the guy I am playing against.

Well, three Psyfleman Dreads targetting AV 13 - 14 vehicles. That's a gamble, it may work, but eventually will not work well.

Roguejm11 wrote:

Going to use this as the example...

Scenerio is this: Pitched Batttle, Kill points game. we will keep it simple, the Grey Knight list above is going first and initiative is not stolen. What do you do?

Personally I would have tried to deploy myself with some cover for my rhinos but I would have tried to keep them as close to 12'' up the board as I can. On first turn, I would drive myself up the table 12'' which hopefully is putting me anywhere between 24'' and 30'' from the enemies table edge. Smoke every rhino I can to give myself my 6 up cover saves against any shooting. Then use the 3 dreads, I am not looking to blow 3 things up, honestly, I am looking at what models can affect my 6 rhinos the most? Predator Annilator, Leman Russ, etc. I am looking to keep you from shooting, a stunned result, or wrecked + is awesome there. Because if I can minimize your return fire.... I have 12 Psycannons that can hit virtually the ENTIRE board without having to move next round, which means I can shoot 8 str 7 rending shots from each rhino. And depending on my results from that, I have done what I needed to do to make this game start to turn bad for the guy I am playing against.

The reason I bring this up is because....YOU CANT DO THAT. You took Razorbacks with Heavy bolters.... and they cost more...
So instead of shooting 12 pyscannons... either 24 shots if they ALL move again, or 48 shots if you don't move that are str 7 rending. you have 18 str 6 shots.

Just saying... bad choice.

Or...

You could have jumped out the turn you drove forward 12", and fired straight away, instead of having your guys sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a turn. And you can use the shooting from the guys who jumped out to minimize return fire, by suppressing/killing prime targets.

So that's 24 Psycannon shots on t1.

Then either 24/48 more on t2, depending on if your opponent moved away, AND 18 str6 shots.

You notice that's more shots than you're putting out?