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Ok gents so i have a aircalv army so far i have played 4 games with it and its iffy on the true cheesey nature of it. I played orks i decimated them, i played Grey knights and it was a narrow victory for me, and a narrow victory for him. I have yet to play another set of games against other races but here is what i got so far.
Hq -
Dual Lord Comissars -180pts (both have power weps and plasma)

Troops - (860pt)
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt

Fast Attack - (1100pts)
6 Valkyires - 140pt - 840pt heavy bolter sponsons and MRP
3 Vendetta - 130pt -360pt

totals out to be about 2140pt (my 2k list i lose a plasma squad and take a upgrade on my commisars)
now i was wondering what should i do with the 360pts for a 2.5k list that would be competetive and still keep
in the theme of my my air guard. My buddy suggested stormies which i agree bring more firepower, but they
are costly. What do you guys think?

Maybe drop the lord commish and use priests so all your hits reroll when you assault? You can take all you want and save the points since your list is too mobile for a command squad.

I hate power weapons, the S3 of guard make it really hard to wound. (I love power fist and bolt pistol combo)

If I were you I would drop at least one commissar, they don't provide anything useful in your list. I'd go with either a CCS or a psyker. A psyker is cheap, raises LD and his powers are sort of useful. A CCS gives you access to astropath, and incentive to make a really cool command valkyrie with a shark mouth or something.

I'm going to agree. The first lord commissar should be a CCS with plasma and an astropath. Drop a plasma vet squad if you must to make this happen. The second one can be a lord commissar, but the best is a psyker (or not bothering with another HQ).

As for the rest of the points, if being fluffy is important to you, then take a bunch of stormies and make liberal use of airborne assault. If that's less of a concern, I'd look into more outflanking units, like al'rahem outflanking power blobs or something heavy-hitting with creed, followed by perhaps some HS choices (leaning towards the AV14 variety).

Or if you don't want stormies either, I'd turn a few more valkyries into vendettas. Demolitions is also an option.

Almarine wrote:Or if you don't want stormies either, I'd turn a few more valkyries into vendettas. Demolitions is also an option.

Stormies seem like a good option and are worth the pts if you play them right. Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

Ailaros wrote:I'm going to agree. The first lord commissar should be a CCS with plasma and an astropath. Drop a plasma vet squad if you must to make this happen. The second one can be a lord commissar, but the best is a psyker (or not bothering with another HQ).


As for the rest of the points, if being fluffy is important to you, then take a bunch of stormies and make liberal use of airborne assault. If that's less of a concern, I'd look into more outflanking units, like al'rahem outflanking power blobs or something heavy-hitting with creed, followed by perhaps some HS choices (leaning towards the AV14 variety).

i use to run CCS with creed for his good order, but found that boosted the list very little for the pts, and in fact a vet squad with plasma's will do more for me then a CCS although a CCS sounds like a good attachment, it just hasnt done much for me other then get wasted from guns i failed to take down.

My fluff is no ground, so if it doesn't fit in a valk it isn't worth taking :/ kinda limits the cheese you can do, like a out flank power blob.

Almarine wrote:If I were you I would drop at least one commissar, they don't provide anything useful in your list. I'd go with either a CCS or a psyker. A psyker is cheap, raises LD and his powers are sort of useful. A CCS gives you access to astropath, and incentive to make a really cool command valkyrie with a shark mouth or something.

Again, with this list you have to put everything down, even if your not going first because other wise your far to meal price for blood angels, orks and space wolves. I use to do this concept it isn't as tactical beneficial as it sounds at least from my trial games. I would normally get 2 valk squads in, and bomb the tips of the army and kill lots of things with vets, but the good juicy core of the army counter attacks and I suffer to many losses to come back from. (blood angels are like that) mind you i did get 7 kill pts that turn, and he only got 4 back so i guess its still a win?

sfshilo wrote:Maybe drop the lord commish and use priests so all your hits re roll when you assault? You can take all you want and save the points since your list is too mobile for a command squad.
Fun idea especially with Oygrans, but then i have to take shotguns over lasguns (not much difference, but the CCS loses even more potential effect unless I run creed.)
I hate power weapons, the S3 of guard make it really hard to wound. (I love power fist and bolt pistol combo)

(power wep commissar is a power fist just a fun fact i should of made clear).

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

Let's see here is 9 lascannons twin linked at one thing! An that is the problem. Sure I annihilate your rhino but now troops to deal with and meltas are not great anti infantry

Yes, but vendettas allow you to take plasma guns instead of meltas. In any case, valks are transports while vendettas are gunboats. Given that you're going to want your entire army mobile, having more than like 2 or 3 in an air cav list probably isn't a good idea.

Apparently the Ork player wasn't using a fair amount of Lootas? Because 3 squadrons of 3 Vendetta/Valkyries will just get their lunch money stolen by them. My friend has 9 vendettas and while you might think they would be scare it's really not. 9 TL Lascannon seem really awesome into you realize they all have to fire at the one rhino or trukk each turn not very point effective. It's not very competitive either because you get some really bad match up verses Long Fang Packs, Psy/Riflemen Dreads, Hydras, Lootas... there's a few more but you get the point, they just make your 3 man flying circus crash and burn.

If you looking to have some fun see if your friends will let you use the Elysians from IA8 now that's some fun

General_Chaos wrote:Apparently the Ork player wasn't using a fair amount of Lootas? Because 3 squadrons of 3 Vendetta/Valkyries will just get their lunch money stolen by them. My friend has 9 vendettas and while you might think they would be scare it's really not. 9 TL Lascannon seem really awesome into you realize they all have to fire at the one rhino or trukk each turn not very point effective. It's not very competitive either because you get some really bad match up verses Long Fang Packs, Psy/Riflemen Dreads, Hydras, Lootas... there's a few more but you get the point, they just make your 3 man flying circus crash and burn.

If you looking to have some fun see if your friends will let you use the Elysians from IA8 now that's some fun

A hahahaha not enough lootas? He fielded 45. I got first and combined with a scout I got there and my valks killed him to 3/4 after bubble saves and he failed leader of course I had no vendettas. I just dislike them and this list works just needs a tweak.

cormadepanda wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

Let's see here is 9 lascannons twin linked at one thing! An that is the problem. Sure I annihilate your rhino but now troops to deal with and meltas are not great anti infantry

sq. 1
valkyrie
valkyrie
valkyrie

sq. 2
vendetta
vendetta
valkyrie

sq. 3
vendetta
vendetta
valkyrie

6 TL lascannons isn't always overkill... Plus they're not all going to make it through the game, it's nice to have some backup guns. Like you said, if it doesn't fit in a valk you can't take it so there's not much to do apart from upgrading the valks or vets. That or a naked basic platoon to make the last 3 boats scoring.

Almarine wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

Let's see here is 9 lascannons twin linked at one thing! An that is the problem. Sure I annihilate your rhino but now troops to deal with and meltas are not great anti infantry

sq. 1
valkyrie
valkyrie
valkyrie

sq. 2
vendetta
vendetta
valkyrie

sq. 3
vendetta
vendetta
valkyrie

6 TL lascannons isn't always overkill... Plus they're not all going to make it through the game, it's nice to have some backup guns. Like you said, if it doesn't fit in a valk you can't take it so there's not much to do apart from upgrading the valks or vets. That or a naked basic platoon to make the last 3 boats scoring.

In a perfect world, I'd agree with you. But you can't mix-n-match the squadrons.

That's why(depending on points!) I suggest:

Vendetta x 2

Vendetta x 2

Valk x 2-3

If you have the points you can add/subtract what your points allow. If you know that the lascannons won't be as effective (orks, nids),
switch the Valks and Vendettas around.

cormadepanda wrote:A hahahaha not enough lootas? He fielded 45. I got first and combined with a scout I got there and my valks killed him to 3/4 after bubble saves and he failed leader of course I had no vendettas. I just dislike them and this list works just needs a tweak.

Well hells bells you don't need to tweak your list you just need to learn how to get first turn all the time and you'd be unstoppable!

an infantry platoon with a few heavy weapons thrown in for taking objectives on your side of the table. If you want to stay true to an air can army, model them as the pilot and crew of a downed plane.

General_Chaos wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:A hahahaha not enough lootas? He fielded 45. I got first and combined with a scout I got there and my valks killed him to 3/4 after bubble saves and he failed leader of course I had no vendettas. I just dislike them and this list works just needs a tweak.

Well hells bells you don't need to tweak your list you just need to learn how to get first turn all the time and you'd be unstoppable!

Har har now only if i can hold my oppent at gun point to insure i always get first... oh well but thats why i have a tactic thread open is, what can i do to avoid doom if i dont get turn 1.

quilava1 wrote:an infantry platoon with a few heavy weapons thrown in for taking objectives on your side of the table. If you want to stay true to an air can army, model them as the pilot and crew of a downed plane.

very fun and viable idea!

Can't believe I forgot valks and vends are different units.

Air cav is such a mess.

Almarine wrote:

Air cav is such a mess.

Agreed. In a story, it sounds cool as hell. But in the game, not so much.
I have all the models I'd need to do a smallish Aircav list, but won't even
try unless it's for fun only.

cormadepanda wrote:My fluff is no ground, so if it doesn't fit in a valk it isn't worth taking :/ kinda limits the cheese you can do, like a out flank power blob.

Infiltrators would fit your fluff. No matter what, you can't rely solely on satellite imaging. You need some guys on the ground, doing long ranged penetration. These guys would be behind enemy lines and light infantry. They're there to gather intel. Maybe stuff hit the fan and now they need a hot evac and your birds come in. Or possibly they've been following an enemy strike force and now you are ready to engage so they'll be giving you some support. Either way, they totally fit AirCav.

So Storm Troopers, Guardsman Marbo, a Veteran Squad with Gunnery Sergeant Harker... They all fit an AirCav theme. Given you are maxed out on Veteran Squads I'd be looking at those Elites options. Small 5 man squads of Storm Troopers would be excellent, especially with Pinning on Turn 1 (which can be surprisingly effective sometimes).

cormadepanda wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

Let's see here is 9 lascannons twin linked at one thing! An that is the problem. Sure I annihilate your rhino but now troops to deal with and meltas are not great anti infantry

You got that right. I had a rant about this on another post that I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428249.page#3894238). Essentially, Vendettas are great in traditional Guard lists. With AirCav you have different needs and Valkyries suit them better. Both fluff wise and gameplay wise.


For me, the AirCav list I'm planning uses two CCS. For some reason I didn't really consider Commissars seriously. Getting twin-linked weapons or denying a cover save however, that I did consider seriously which is why I'm even springing for voxes. With AirCav, you will be disembarked at some point. Its not "Air Mech". And usually you have one shot that you need to make sure is as punishing as possible.

As for your list, i'm not a fan of Plasma (except on my Space Wolves) but if its working for you I'd keep it. Honestly I wish I had the points in my normal list for a 5th Vet Squad with Sgt Bastonne since he can use the important orders. I also wish I had the points for Harker's squad with double Heavy Bolters for holding my home objective. Stealth and the firepower should keep them on the board for a bit. But for yours, you are crammed full with as much as you can take for the most part.

I would consider dropping the Vendettas for Valkyries with TLLC. Laughable usually, but you aren't taking them on their own and 3 TLLC should be able to devastate a single target anyways. Using the MRPs to scatter onto bubble units could be helpful.

cowmonaut wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:My fluff is no ground, so if it doesn't fit in a valk it isn't worth taking :/ kinda limits the cheese you can do, like a out flank power blob.

Infiltrators would fit your fluff. No matter what, you can't rely solely on satellite imaging. You need some guys on the ground, doing long ranged penetration. These guys would be behind enemy lines and light infantry. They're there to gather intel. Maybe stuff hit the fan and now they need a hot evac and your birds come in. Or possibly they've been following an enemy strike force and now you are ready to engage so they'll be giving you some support. Either way, they totally fit AirCav.

So Storm Troopers, Guardsman Marbo, a Veteran Squad with Gunnery Sergeant Harker... They all fit an AirCav theme. Given you are maxed out on Veteran Squads I'd be looking at those Elites options. Small 5 man squads of Storm Troopers would be excellent, especially with Pinning on Turn 1 (which can be surprisingly effective sometimes).

cormadepanda wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote: Vendettas are more or less crap compared to a valk, they bust armor, but i have 12 meltas for that.

I could've sworn you just said Vendettas are crap!?!?!?

Let's see here is 9 lascannons twin linked at one thing! An that is the problem. Sure I annihilate your rhino but now troops to deal with and meltas are not great anti infantry

You got that right. I had a rant about this on another post that I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428249.page#3894238). Essentially, Vendettas are great in traditional Guard lists. With AirCav you have different needs and Valkyries suit them better. Both fluff wise and gameplay wise.


For me, the AirCav list I'm planning uses two CCS. For some reason I didn't really consider Commissars seriously. Getting twin-linked weapons or denying a cover save however, that I did consider seriously which is why I'm even springing for voxes. With AirCav, you will be disembarked at some point. Its not "Air Mech". And usually you have one shot that you need to make sure is as punishing as possible.

As for your list, i'm not a fan of Plasma (except on my Space Wolves) but if its working for you I'd keep it. Honestly I wish I had the points in my normal list for a 5th Vet Squad with Sgt Bastonne since he can use the important orders. I also wish I had the points for Harker's squad with double Heavy Bolters for holding my home objective. Stealth and the firepower should keep them on the board for a bit. But for yours, you are crammed full with as much as you can take for the most part.

I would consider dropping the Vendettas for Valkyries with TLLC. Laughable usually, but you aren't taking them on their own and 3 TLLC should be able to devastate a single target anyways. Using the MRPs to scatter onto bubble units could be helpful.

Now see that advice worth reading! I iffy on the tllc because the points cause I take heavy bolters. I will fit storm troopers I like them and I will drop both lord commissars for one ccs.

The valkyrie's LC isn't TL though.

Yea... I just caught that last night when discussing with a friend. Still. Even at BS3, 3 Lascannons firing at one target? You aren't going to be too badly off. I'd probably still want to take 1 squadron with 1-2 Vendettas. The point range I play in is usually 1750/1850 and you are hard pressed to be taking more than 6 squads that are worth putting in Valkyries.

Not really Incan fit 6 valks and. 6 squads at that or value

cormadepanda wrote:Not really Incan fit 6 valks and. 6 squads at that or value

I almost feel you need the Vendettas to pull off a semi competative Aircav list. If you don't run any,
all of your AT is close range. If you have all of your Valkyries go down, then maybe no AT. If they survive
the crash, then those fragile IG are taking fire adavancing, or setting. If they're cowering in cover, they
aren't grabbing objectives. By using just Valks, you have to take them in closer to melta range. The Vendetta
doesn't have to get close to kill vehicles, keeping it out of at least melta range.

alarmingrick wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:Not really Incan fit 6 valks and. 6 squads at that or value

I almost feel you need the Vendettas to pull off a semi competative Aircav list. If you don't run any,
all of your AT is close range. If you have all of your Valkyries go down, then maybe no AT. If they survive
the crash, then those fragile IG are taking fire adavancing, or setting. If they're cowering in cover, they
aren't grabbing objectives. By using just Valks, you have to take them in closer to melta range. The Vendetta
doesn't have to get close to kill vehicles, keeping it out of at least melta range.

Well sir first move turbo scout with a additional foot movement get my squish guard in melta range and ur infantry and mrp and multi laser range plus set packs and plasma har har

Aircav is not competitive., sorry to say. Several armies you will just lose to, simply because you are on the same table:

1: Kanwall - you will not be able to scout over the kans and boys to get to the lootas. This leaves you in front of the kans, which you can't kill unless your melta-vets get out. However, if they get out, you lose them to the boys. If you don't get out, then the kans fire rokkits into your birds. All the while, the lootas are still free to gun your birds down. Also, most cmpetitive kanwalls also have either rokkit/buzzsaw koptas or rokkit buggies....too much MSU with cover saves for aircav to deal with effectively.

2: DE - They have FAR too many raiders/ravagers with lances that will simply anihilate you. You are stuck in squadrons, shooting at a few targets, while they MSU you to death.

3: Mechdar - See DE above, but replace raiders with WS, who not only drop your LCs to S8, but also only allow your meltas only 1d6 for pen...and they bring FDs.

4: GK - Their servo-skulls will not allow you to scout move up anywhere near them, and their Psyflemen dreads kill valks/vends dead. Throw in all their other psycannons and just forget about it.

5: SW - Longfang spam combined with just about anything else in the dex will put a serious, serious hurt on any aircav list, due to aircav being forced to squadron.

6: Deathwing - 30+ TH/SS Termies with CMLs, backed up by 3x Typhoons. Your vets have to get into the assault range of those termies to be effective, and then you have to hope they fail all those 2+, 3++ saves, or you die..even if only 1-2 termies from the squad survive. Not to mention you are staring at 12 S8 48" shots a turn from the Termies, plus the 6 Missile shots and 3 MMs on the Typhoons. (and this is only 1850 points; as you go up in points, you can end up facing up to 3 more termie squads). Bye-Bye-Birdies.

I can go on, but I hope you get the point. The lists I mentioned aren't even uncommon. In fact, they are some of the most popular builds at the moment, (so you will be seeing them often), and aircav fails to cut the mustard against any of them. In fact, it is almost a mathematical-autoloss against each of the aforementioned lists. Other builds are equally bad matchups for aircav, but I hope the examples that I have pointed out have given you an understanding of the inherent weaknesses of pure aircav. Any list that can bring multiple units capable of spamming S7+ shots just tear aircav apart, due to being stuck in squadrons; they only have to focus on 3 targets to strip your mobiltity and give them the win, where you have to deal with several targets, due to them making use of MSU.

It is sad, because I love IG, and I wish there was a way to use the codex to play aircav competitvely; sadly, at the moment it is not a competitive build. If valks/vends could be taken as dedicated transports, rather than being forced to squadron up, then aircav would be viable, since your opponent would have 9 targets to deal with, rather than 3; additionally, you would be able to target 9 of his units, rather than the 3 you are limited to, with the squadron rules.

cormadepanda wrote:Ok gents so i have a aircalv army so far i have played 4 games with it and its iffy on the true cheesey nature of it. I played orks i decimated them, i played Grey knights and it was a narrow victory for me, and a narrow victory for him. I have yet to play another set of games against other races but here is what i got so far.
Hq -
Dual Lord Comissars -180pts (both have power weps and plasma)

Troops - (860pt)
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt

Fast Attack - (1100pts)
6 Valkyires - 140pt - 840pt heavy bolter sponsons and MRP
3 Vendetta - 130pt -360pt

totals out to be about 2140pt (my 2k list i lose a plasma squad and take a upgrade on my commisars)
now i was wondering what should i do with the 360pts for a 2.5k list that would be competetive and still keep
in the theme of my my air guard. My buddy suggested stormies which i agree bring more firepower, but they
are costly. What do you guys think?

You played my necrons too! Don't forget.

Zid wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:Ok gents so i have a aircalv army so far i have played 4 games with it and its iffy on the true cheesey nature of it. I played orks i decimated them, i played Grey knights and it was a narrow victory for me, and a narrow victory for him. I have yet to play another set of games against other races but here is what i got so far.
Hq -
Dual Lord Comissars -180pts (both have power weps and plasma)

Troops - (860pt)
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt

Fast Attack - (1100pts)
6 Valkyires - 140pt - 840pt heavy bolter sponsons and MRP
3 Vendetta - 130pt -360pt

totals out to be about 2140pt (my 2k list i lose a plasma squad and take a upgrade on my commisars)
now i was wondering what should i do with the 360pts for a 2.5k list that would be competetive and still keep
in the theme of my my air guard. My buddy suggested stormies which i agree bring more firepower, but they
are costly. What do you guys think?

You played my necrons too! Don't forget.

Yes but that was my first game and I played wrong so very wrong. If I played you again and you had te same list I could a win perhaps even a massacre

cormadepanda wrote:

Zid wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:Ok gents so i have a aircalv army so far i have played 4 games with it and its iffy on the true cheesey nature of it. I played orks i decimated them, i played Grey knights and it was a narrow victory for me, and a narrow victory for him. I have yet to play another set of games against other races but here is what i got so far.
Hq -
Dual Lord Comissars -180pts (both have power weps and plasma)

Troops - (860pt)
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Delta (Melta Det) - 130pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt
Vet - Det plasma - 160pt

Fast Attack - (1100pts)
6 Valkyires - 140pt - 840pt heavy bolter sponsons and MRP
3 Vendetta - 130pt -360pt

totals out to be about 2140pt (my 2k list i lose a plasma squad and take a upgrade on my commisars)
now i was wondering what should i do with the 360pts for a 2.5k list that would be competetive and still keep
in the theme of my my air guard. My buddy suggested stormies which i agree bring more firepower, but they
are costly. What do you guys think?

You played my necrons too! Don't forget.

Yes but that was my first game and I played wrong so very wrong. If I played you again and you had te same list I could a win perhaps even a massacre

Thats what you say everytime! Same thing you said with your orks vs my ba and in the doubles tourney lol

Alerian wrote:Aircav is not competitive., sorry to say. Several armies you will just lose to, simply because you are on the same table:

1: Kanwall - you will not be able to scout over the kans and boys to get to the lootas. This leaves you in front of the kans, which you can't kill unless your melta-vets get out. However, if they get out, you lose them to the boys. If you don't get out, then the kans fire rokkits into your birds. All the while, the lootas are still free to gun your birds down. Also, most cmpetitive kanwalls also have either rokkit/buzzsaw koptas or rokkit buggies....too much MSU with cover saves for aircav to deal with effectively.

Not a good example. 6 units with BS4 and 3+ Twin-Linked Meltaguns plus (again Twin-Linked) Demo Charge can drop 3 units of Kans without too much trouble. Then you have 12 S4 AP5 Large Blast Templates and 18 S6 Multi-laser hits on the Boyz that are beyond the Kan Wall. That will melt the ranks that are close enough to hurt you.

Alerian wrote:
2: DE - They have FAR too many raiders/ravagers with lances that will simply anihilate you. You are stuck in squadrons, shooting at a few targets, while they MSU you to death.

This will be probably the hardest match up. To be frank, I'm not as familiar with the DE codex as others or the common army lists yet. I'll do some more research to see how to counter act these, but I don't see it as an insurmountable task.

Alerian wrote:
3: Mechdar - See DE above, but replace raiders with WS, who not only drop your LCs to S8, but also only allow your meltas only 1d6 for pen...and they bring FDs.

And if they are in range, you are in range and vice versa. Even better, their troops are about as tough as yours but probably fewer in number on a squad to squad basis. You aren't going to be losing birds right away. Your vets are your workhorse. That's going to be ~6 targets there, plus 2-3 more targets from your birds. 9 units hit a turn will thin them out quick and you have better deployment options so you can out maneuver them initially. Once you are on the table you are on even footing for maneuverability.

Alerian wrote:
4: GK - Their servo-skulls will not allow you to scout move up anywhere near them, and their Psyflemen dreads kill valks/vends dead. Throw in all their other psycannons and just forget about it.

So don't Scout move against a GK list with Servo-Skulls, Outflank/Reserve instead.

Also, your typical TLAC Dread has a 20% chance to blow a Valkyrie up if its in a Squadron and Turbo Boosted. With S8 its a bit better than that, but S7 weapons with less than 4 shots and none of them twin-linked will be even worse. Plus they have very short range so they won't be a threat until you are in range to drop your troops unless its a Razorback or Dreadnought.

Alerian wrote:5: SW - Longfang spam combined with just about anything else in the dex will put a serious, serious hurt on any aircav list, due to aircav being forced to squadron.

I play Space Wolves. I've also done the math on Long Fangs actually shooting at a Valkyrie Squadron and the odds of them taking out a single Valkryie is 33% on the turn after a Turbo Boost (28% chance to destroy via penetration, 5% via glancing; wasn't sure if you added them or not). That's with 5 Missile Launchers firing at the squadron. A TLLC Razorback is 12%. Again, not exactly scary.

I'll grant you its worse by far if you don't Turbo Boost but you are still at less than 50/50 chance of losing any bird to Long Fangs.

Alerian wrote:6: Deathwing - 30+ TH/SS Termies with CMLs, backed up by 3x Typhoons. Your vets have to get into the assault range of those termies to be effective, and then you have to hope they fail all those 2+, 3++ saves, or you die..even if only 1-2 termies from the squad survive. Not to mention you are staring at 12 S8 48" shots a turn from the Termies, plus the 6 Missile shots and 3 MMs on the Typhoons. (and this is only 1850 points; as you go up in points, you can end up facing up to 3 more termie squads). Bye-Bye-Birdies.

Long Fangs have more missiles being put out than most units of Dark Angels. Their missiles aren't going to be a major problem. Their assault capabilities will be. Hopefully those AP2 blast templates and AP1 shots come in handy...

Terminators are terrifying for anyone that isn't a space marine. Luckily, they are slow so you can pick your battles and limit how much contact the enemy can make with you in combat.

Alerian wrote:I can go on, but I hope you get the point.

Funnily enough, you don't seem to. The birds are support and transportation for your Veterans. They aren't the heavy lifters. They aren't what carries the day. The Veterans are the real workhorse and while they aren't Space Marines, their output in Shooting phase will hurt more than you seem to think.

Also, unless you get Seized, there is no reason for you to not be able to get the drop on the enemy without losing a bird. With AirCav, you have the initiative. You get to dictate the first few turns of play. Capitalize on that and you will do better than you are giving the list credit for.

Alerian wrote:The lists I mentioned aren't even uncommon. In fact, they are some of the most popular builds at the moment, (so you will be seeing them often), and aircav fails to cut the mustard against any of them. In fact, it is almost a mathematical-autoloss against each of the aforementioned lists. Other builds are equally bad matchups for aircav, but I hope the examples that I have pointed out have given you an understanding of the inherent weaknesses of pure aircav. Any list that can bring multiple units capable of spamming S7+ shots just tear aircav apart, due to being stuck in squadrons; they only have to focus on 3 targets to strip your mobiltity and give them the win, where you have to deal with several targets, due to them making use of MSU.

Sorry to say your "math" isn't factoring everything in. These are not auto-loss situations. Some of them are more uphill battles than others, while yet other lists aren't even a real tough match up like you seem to think.

Again, its a given that AirCav is not the most competitive IG list you can take. Its still capable. You just have to realize it plays completely different than other IG lists and look at what its fully capable of doing. AV12 isn't to be sneezed at on its own and there are very, very few circumstances where you won't be able to get your Veterans into Melta range in one turn. And once they are deployed, the amount of damage you are capable of inflicting when you factor in everything is a bit surprising.

I'm supposed to be playing a few practice games this weekend for a tournament in a few weeks but I'll see if I can squeeze in some games to BatRep it. Chances are it'd be against a competitive Blood Angels list rather than one of the ones you've listed but maybe if I demonstrate what I'm talking about you'll see what i mean. Words alone don't seem to be having an affect on everyone.