Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, so this guy in my gaming group, who claims to be a 40K "Guru" keeps insisting that for every HQ unit you add onto your force it doubles the slots you can take. I know that this is completely ridiculous but he keeps saying that no books say you CAN'T do that. Can somebody help me by directing me to the page that explicitly states this?

Unfortunately, I have to walk away after arguing for a certain while, because a rule I live by is "You can't argue with stupid people."

Thanks a lot in advance?

Does the rulebook explicitly say you can do it?

Then no, you can't.

What you can't do is unimportant. I could bring large rocks to all my games and start crushing my opponents' models with them, but just because the rulebook doesn't say it's not within the rules of the game doesn't mean it is.

There's rules lawyering, and then there's just plain stupid.

Tell him to shove it.

WTF has this guy been smoking?....Seriously. It says right in the force organisation chart that you can take up to 3 HS, 3 FA, 6 Troops and an OPTIONAL 2 HQ. They are all included on the same chart and so 2 HQ's cannot double the other slots

I would suggest going over the force org chart page in the BRB again as this is pretty clear.

Also, 40K is permissive as already pointed out (ie it tells you want you are allowed too do). So just because it does not say you can't does not mean you can.

You can argue with stupid people, though - as pointless as it is.

It just brings you down to their level where they beat you with experience.

Just walk away. You did the right thing.

A normal 40k game uses 1 force org chart. You could easily increase the number of force orgs being used in a game by prior agreement, or even change the force org chart entirely by agreement. However the basic 40k rules aassume 1 force org each, so he's pretty wrong...

If he makes that claim again ask him to show you in the rules where it allows that. Certain units allow you to take other units without it counting on the FOC, but those are army specific .

I remember reading in the BRB about running 2 armies at the same time. Sorry I don't have it all memerized but i'm sure it said with both people agreeing on it. When I get off work i'll look up the page I read it on. (In about 6 and a half hours.) I am 100% sure I saw it in the book. I'm thinking this is what has the "Guru" mixed up.

@ortugus - I don't have my book in front of me but I know the section you are talking about. IIRC it's talking about after 2500 points, the standard force org becomes too crowded (by design) and it may be a appropriate to add a 2nd force.

Ah ok, thanks foolishmortal. I agree with everyone.

Be ready the next time. When he makes such a rediculous claim, make the counter claim that he is wrong...it allows you to TRIPLE the FOC slots while halfing the unit costs.
Proceed to then deploy (all borrowed from other players who are also tired of the douchebaggery) 9 Meltavets, 3 full up Platoons, 6 Hellhounds (2 squadrons of 3), 6 Vendettas (3 squadrons of 2), 6 manticores, 3 Colossus, 3 psyker battle squads, and 2 ogryn Squads (1 with Yarrick...HQ #1).
Then just stare at him blankly while he searches the rulebook in vain for for the rule that says you CANT do that.

Then, when the DB proceeds to purchase huge amounts of goodies from the FLGS to counter your own brand of self-iinflicted DB-gery, everyone refuse to play him (but thank him for supporting the FLGS with his recent money drop).

With the extra armies your talking about Detachments. It is advised that once you reach a certain point limit you not only choose the points but choose the maximum number of detachments in your army, which are essentially another Force Organisation Chart

Sabet wrote:With the extra armies your talking about Detachments. It is advised that once you reach a certain point limit you not only choose the points but choose the maximum number of detachments in your army, which are essentially another Force Organisation Chart

This must be a joke? Or is this what the "over 2500 points" rule is called?

no. the brb suggests to use detachments. not a requirement. it talks about detachements in the same area as the (paraphrasing) "over 2500 points the FOC becomes a fairly limiting factor"

So do these HQ slots add more HQ slots and begin a never ending flow of Independant characters... Think of it, you could bring out every hero in your codex... Grimnar backed by an entire squad of Wolf Lords!

Your friend is nuts, the book is clear and it shows the org charts, what is required and what is optional.

Would that also mean that for each HQ choice you buy you must have an additional 2 troops?

Happyjew wrote:Would that also mean that for each HQ choice you buy you must have an additional 2 troops?

If you agree to have 2 Force Org charts, yes.

With one force org you must have 1 HQ and 2 troops.

With two force org's you must have 2 HQ and 4 troops.

With three force org's you must have 3 HQ and 6 troops.

With four force org's you must have 4 HQ and 8 troops.

Etc.

JonST wrote:So do these HQ slots add more HQ slots and begin a never ending flow of Independant characters... Think of it, you could bring out every hero in your codex... Grimnar backed by an entire squad of Wolf Lords!

Your friend is nuts, the book is clear and it shows the org charts, what is required and what is optional.

Based on his post, this dude isn't his friend... He's tfg. I love the suggestions so far the 2 troops per hq, half point cost suggestions are phenomenal... How about you take hqs from different armies to throw it back in his face? Make him show you the page for it. Make up bs rules for everything and make him find the page. Eventually he'll tell you you can't because its not in the rules then throw his whole original argument in his face.

Rephistorch wrote:

Sabet wrote:With the extra armies your talking about Detachments. It is advised that once you reach a certain point limit you not only choose the points but choose the maximum number of detachments in your army, which are essentially another Force Organisation Chart

This must be a joke? Or is this what the "over 2500 points" rule is called?

Rulebook p87, "Multiple detachment games."

The guy should be forced to drink scalding water from russels teapot.

I don't get why some people try to cheat at this game.

Sometimes it's completely unintentional. For example, the other day playing against IG, my buddy kept giving multiple orders to units (i.e. 2 orders to unit A, 2 orders to unit B, etc.) Found out the next day he was doing it wrong.
Was he cheating? Technically yes. Did he realize it at the time? No. Did I care? No, because I had fun (especially when his Deathstrike Missile went off perfectly in round 2).

What a crock of ******* ****!
look the force org chart is the way thingare supoosed to be you can think of it this way you have a force commander and an advisor/specialist.

for example i run Belial and an Interrogator chaplain.

There actually did used to be a rule similar to what is suggested above. In the old Space Wolves codex, they were required to field one HQ choice per 750 points of their army, which meant most of their army followed the standard chart (IE no more than 3 Elites/Heavies/Fast, Etc....) but they could take more than two HQ's based on how many points the game was. A 1,500 point game required 2 HQ's, no more, no less. In the new codex, this is represented by the ability to field two HQ's in a single slot, but you are not REQUIRED to field more than 1 in an army.

That said, what this guy is saying is complete BS. The chart is the chart, and in 5th edition it doesn't change. Some armies are capable of fielding multiple units as a single slot (Imperial Guard Platoons, Sanguinary Priests, Etc...) but the number of HQ's in your army do nothing to increase the number of Force Organization Charts being used.

Honestly, it baffles me how badly some people read the rules, and how little comprehension they take away from doing so. I make it a point to re-read the entire rules set at least once every few months, just to refresh my memory on what's there and to compare it to the current FAQ. I think everyone should do the same, because if they did this forum would be MUCH cleaner. A little reading from time to time won't kill you. Hell, it's probably good for you

Dose he also play SW. The army with upto 4 HQ. Next time just smile and find a different player.

Or DE, with a 6 HQ possibility (6 Haemies..)

People make mistakes, but that's a pretty glaring one, given that every codex i've read has the FOC chart in it

For multiple "detachments" of force org charts, you must fill the required 2 troops and 1 HQ. This will give you an entire second force org chart. It is also an optional/non-standard rule, and only applies at 2500p and above.

It's pretty cut and dry, 2 HQ 3 Elites 6 troops 3 Fast attack and 3 heavy support. That's it! That's the max force FOC.

@ ph34r

The detachment rule does not only apply to games above 2500 points. Before any game you may ask your opponent whether they would like to use the rule, and if so, the maximum attachments.

The BRB just suggests it for games over 2500 points...