Am I cheesing with a movable wall of cover save?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**leohart**

Since a terminator base is 2-in, I am going to put the termies sandwiching with bikes, guaranteeing that they are in cohesion as long as their bases touch.

B T B T B T B T B T B

Moving phase, I move everyone up 6". Shooting phase, I shoot all weapons from bikes. Then I run Termies up 1", granting bikes 4+, termies already have 2+/3+.

Am I cheesing or is this on the line of "acceptable but you are a douche"?

UPDATE: The point being: if I can provide consistent cover for my squads, I might just run 10 TH/SS instead of 5 TH/SS and a LRR.

**th3maninblak**

I don't even think that's cheesy. I think it's smart. There are entire armies based off the same concept, called Thunderbubble. Assault Terminators are just big enough to grant cover to Rhino Chassis vehicles, and also provide a buffer/counter assault unit to anything that gets close.

**Lobokai**

If you're running a DA list, cheese is a tough accusation for an opponent to make.

**Spetulhu**

Seeing how you make the bikes crawl instead of hurtling for an objective I'd say it's a pretty fair trade. And you have the units bunched up for blasts as well... not sure the cover save is worth it TBH.

**Nemesor Dave**

th3maninblak wrote:I don't even think that's cheesy. I think it's smart. There are entire armies based off the same concept, called Thunderbubble. Assault Terminators are just big enough to grant cover to Rhino Chassis vehicles, and also provide a buffer/counter assault unit to anything that gets close.

I don't think infantry can grant a cover save to vehicles. To get a cover save a vehicle must have 50% of it completely covered. I.E. hidden by a building. Anyone else, thoughts?

**rigeld2**

Nemesor Dave wrote:
th3maninblak wrote:I don't even think that's cheesy. I think it's smart. There are entire armies based off the same concept, called Thunderbubble. Assault Terminators are just big enough to grant cover to Rhino Chassis vehicles, and also provide a buffer/counter assault unit to anything that gets close.

I don't think infantry can grant a cover save to vehicles. To get a cover save a vehicle must have 50% of it completely covered. I.E. hidden by a building. Anyone else, thoughts?

If Infantry are blocking LOS to more than 50% of the vehicle, it gets a cover save. There's no rule requiring it to be a building providing the cover save.

**Tye_Informer**

Don't the bikes have to be at least 1" away from the terminators? You could do it by having the bikes behind the terminators by 1" but then you are probably giving cover saves to your opponent (of course, their armor save may be better anyway, unless you have good AP weapons.)

**kirsanth**

Your own units can be as close together as you like.

**leohart**

Also bikes are not vehicles so the 50% obscure rule doesn't apply on them. Shooting through enemy models will grant cover save. Thus, units on the ground floor shooting through the termies will grant the bikes cover saves.

**azazel the cat**

leohart wrote:Since a terminator base is 2-in, I am going to put the termies sandwiching with bikes, guaranteeing that they are in cohesion as long as their bases touch.

B T B T B T B T B T B

Moving phase, I move everyone up 6". Shooting phase, I shoot all weapons from bikes. Then I run Termies up 1", granting bikes 4+, termies already have 2+/3+.

Am I cheesing or is this on the line of "acceptable but you are a douche"?

Sounds fine to me... but anything with an elevated position is going to light up your slow-moving bikes like a bonfire.

**DeathReaper**

The tactic is fine, use it if you want to.

azazel the cat wrote:...but anything with an elevated position is going to light up your slow-moving bikes like a bonfire.

Not really, they would have to be very high in the air to not be shooting through the terminator unit (By very high I mean almost directly above them).

Since he said the terminators would only be about an inch in front of the bikes, the bikes would have Cover from anything that came from the front or sides.

**azazel the cat**

Fair enough. I'm always in the mindset of using CoD ruins, of which anything on the third floor or high will definitely work.

**Joey**

Yes it's cheesy. It's also within the rules of the game. Don't expect your opponent not to "cheese" you back. If someone tried this on me I would spend the rest of the game trying to piss off my opponent as much as possible.

**kirsanth**

Joey wrote: If someone tried this on me I would spend the rest of the game trying to piss off my opponent as much as possible.

If I thought following the rules was more important than. . .following the rules and thought that spite was a valid means of self-expression*, me too.

Generally though, if I find someone who wants to play a rule differently than I do, it isn't a reason to change the way I play.
If that is not disagreeing with the quote, I apoligize.

* it will need to be expressed, but it is not a valid means to for expression other issues, especially ones as riduculous as displeasure.

**kronk**

leohart wrote:Since a terminator base is 2-in, I am going to put the termies sandwiching with bikes, guaranteeing that they are in cohesion as long as their bases touch.

B T B T B T B T B T B

Moving phase, I move everyone up 6". Shooting phase, I shoot all weapons from bikes. Then I run Termies up 1", granting bikes 4+, termies already have 2+/3+.

Am I cheesing or is this on the line of "acceptable but you are a douche"?

This is allowable, but only so long as you make sure the bikes are the farthest unit from the shooters. Note the following ruling from the FAQ:

Q: Who gets the 4+ cover save for intervening models
when two units are intermingled? (p21)
A: The unit with the model closest to the enemy that is
firing does not have a cover save.

**juraigamer**

It's called checkerboarding, and one of the faq's specifically states you cannot gain a cover save doing so, the main rulebook faq. It was an old trick people used a lot.

**DeathReaper**

juraigamer wrote:It's called checkerboarding, and one of the faq's specifically states you cannot gain a cover save doing so, the main rulebook faq. It was an old trick people used a lot.

Mostly correct.

the faq's specifically states you cannot gain a cover save for the unit closest to the firing models, the other units get a cover save as normal.

See Kronks post.

**kirsanth**

Claiming cover for both, simultaneously, is disallowed.

**leohart**

After realizing that Kirby has a post and an army list for Thunderbubble (doing this with LasPlas Razorbacks instead), I think it is an ok idea tactically.

The sentiment in this thread seems to be overwhelmingly: "Yeah I don't see why not. Now let me place that Plasma Cannon template right here".

**Spetulhu**

But... won't the termies also give enemies a cover save from the bikes? They are after all in between...

**DeathReaper**

Spetulhu wrote:But... won't the termies also give enemies a cover save from the bikes? They are after all in between...

in the OP's Post he puts the bikes at the same line as the terminators, then after shooting, he runs the terminators forward 1", so the enemy does not get a cover save.

In other situations it depends on how the bikes are set up, if the enemy benefits from having a 4+ cover save, and how many bikes are shooting.

E.G. Bikes =B, Terminators are T, Enemy unit is U

.........U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U

T..T..T...T...T...T
..B..B..B..B..B...B..B..B..B..B

If the enemy has a 3+ armor save, and the bikes fire bolters, then the 4+ cover does not matter, as they will use the 3+ armor save.

If the enemy has a 4+ armor save, same as above.

if the enemy has a 5+ armor save, then as long as you do not fire the bolter from the Bike on the far left of the line, they get no cover save, as over half of the firing models can clearly see more than half of the enemy unit.

**Joey**

kirsanth wrote:Claiming cover for both, simultaneously, is disallowed.

Read OP again.

**optimusprime14**

DeathReaper wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:But... won't the termies also give enemies a cover save from the bikes? They are after all in between...

in the OP's Post he puts the bikes at the same line as the terminators, then after shooting, he runs the terminators forward 1", so the enemy does not get a cover save.

In other situations it depends on how the bikes are set up, if the enemy benefits from having a 4+ cover save, and how many bikes are shooting.

E.G. Bikes =B, Terminators are T, Enemy unit is U

.........U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U...U

T..T..T...T...T...T
..B..B..B..B..B...B..B..B..B..B

If the enemy has a 3+ armor save, and the bikes fire bolters, then the 4+ cover does not matter, as they will use the 3+ armor save.

If the enemy has a 4+ armor save, same as above.

if the enemy has a 5+ armor save, then as long as you do not fire the bolter from the Bike on the far left of the line, they get no cover save, as over half of the firing models can clearly see more than half of the enemy unit.

Your own models do not grant cover saves to the opponent. I don't remember the exact page in the BRB but for the purpose of shooting you can shoot through your own guys as if they were not there.

BA's do this same techinque with Bikes and ASM, using the bike to turbo boost to gain the save and have the ASM behind them for the cover save

**Celtic Strike**

Parents, please talk to your kids about cheezing

**Happyjew**

optimusprime14 wrote:Your own models do not grant cover saves to the opponent. I don't remember the exact page in the BRB but for the purpose of shooting you can shoot through your own guys as if they were not there.

Not true, models are able to shoot through their own unit without granting a cover save. (Page 21, 22)

**Kairos**

leohart wrote:Since a terminator base is 2-in, I am going to put the termies sandwiching with bikes, guaranteeing that they are in cohesion as long as their bases touch.

B T B T B T B T B T B

Moving phase, I move everyone up 6". Shooting phase, I shoot all weapons from bikes. Then I run Termies up 1", granting bikes 4+, termies already have 2+/3+.

Am I cheesing or is this on the line of "acceptable but you are a douche"?

It is absolutely not cheesy. It is called using good tactics.

**mrwhoop**

Happyjew wrote:
optimusprime14 wrote:Your own models do not grant cover saves to the opponent. I don't remember the exact page in the BRB but for the purpose of shooting you can shoot through your own guys as if they were not there.

Not true, models are able to shoot through their own unit without granting a cover save. (Page 21, 22)

Bolded part mine. If you shoot through another unit it would grant a cover save to the enemy.

**Joey**

Kairos wrote:
leohart wrote:Since a terminator base is 2-in, I am going to put the termies sandwiching with bikes, guaranteeing that they are in cohesion as long as their bases touch.

B T B T B T B T B T B

Moving phase, I move everyone up 6". Shooting phase, I shoot all weapons from bikes. Then I run Termies up 1", granting bikes 4+, termies already have 2+/3+.

Am I cheesing or is this on the line of "acceptable but you are a douche"?

It is absolutely not cheesy. It is called using good tactics.

You use a list like this against me, I *will* take as many psker squads as I can and make your terminators/bikes simply fall back every turn until I get bored.

**Serder**

well, I see it as a kan wall DA style, not cheesy at all, specially if yout hinkt hat ech model is at least 40 points....

also a fast army can just go around and snipe the bike.

**kirsanth**

Joey wrote:
kirsanth wrote:Claiming cover for both, simultaneously, is disallowed.

Read OP again.

Unless it was changed in edits or I am entirely missing something, the question is basically "Can I grant grant cover with unit x for unit y in such a way that unit y is not penalized in its own shooting" and that is 100% fine.
Encouraged, one might say.