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I thought in spirit of the games day model (and my introduction to 40k), it would be fun to reminisce about "the good(?) old days".

I'm going to kick it off with a few choice points:

Grenades!
Back then they actually worked like, well, grenades. When a Space Marine squad was faced with a mob of Orks closing in for the charge they would throw frag grenades! Imagine 10 short range frag missiles hitting an Ork mob... Come to think of it, I can see why they changed it.

Blight grenades made an area of ground do damage to any unit that moved there. So cool.

Lets not forget the fabled... VORTEX GRENADE!!! It insta-killed anything it touched and the small warp rift it created (1"radius) moved around randomly every turn (sometimes consuming its thrower). It cost 50 points IMS. The problem was you could give it to any model allowed wargear cards, even a cheap suicide mission Imperial Guard fella, IE: broken!

Wargear cards.
I was cool how there was a heap of generic wargear cards (such as the one above) that any race could use. And White Dwarf would come with new ones now and then.

Super characters of death!
My main army was Chaos, and in a 1500 point battle, it wasn't uncommon to see it lead by a 350 point super death pointy stick guy. WHO NEVER DIED! Probably due to a liberal helping of Chaos gifts.

Speaking of pointy stick guys, who ever used a Bloodthirster back then? He caused "terror" and if anyone came within 12" of him they had to take a break test. Bad news for Guard, Orks, etc.. To make things worse, he flies! You had to build up "Khorne summoning points" by causing wounds in CC, but once you had him, it. was. over!

Yea it was slow, and full of brokenness. But those were some good times! Share your thoughts.

The Eldar minis look pretty cool too.

Cyclone missile launchers were cool with the variable blast radius, Allies were fun and Biological warfare!
Virus Outbreak anyone?

Ah yes the good old days.

Commisar Yarrick was the nuts, if I remember rightly any IG unit with in 12" would auto pass any and all lerdership rolls. He could take on any thing and stood a good chance of comming out on top.

The aformentioned votex grenade, loved those things.
"I don't care how many wounds you got or what your save is where your going there an't no comming back."

Teleport jammers, really usefull bit of wargear card. Stoped those deadly termmies from deep striking into the heart of you squishy army. And if any one was mad enouth to use deep strike they would find that 300+ pts squad inside a wall or 20 feet in the air.

The Eldars D-Cannon, funny bit of kit that thing was. 8 times out of ten if it hit the target it would be dead, but some times it would move the target, some times making it reapare high above the ground or deep under it. Really funny to see that happen to a tank as it could land on troops and damage them as well.

Buyable targeters for tanks and the like, I really miss them.

Hallucinogen grenades, some of the funnyst bits of wargear there was..that is unless it happend to you...

The Missile Launher had more than Frag and Krak rounds, it also had Melta and Plasma missiles both very expensive upgrades but both very worth it.

The lascannon, rightly known as the "Buster" for a reason. With an AP of 3D6+9 and a armour modifier of -6 nothing was safe except the Eldar Avatar being immune to all energy based weapons.

Plasma guns (all types) didn't blow up in your face. they had to recharge a turn after firing.

Swords could parry in close combat, making a one on one fight like legendery as you sort of had to narate the fight.

Heavy weapons could target independantly of the rest of the squad.

Overwatch! Oh by the Gods I miss that, at the very lest it should be a IG order. They should bring that back into 6th edition. it would let shoty armys have a chance against them frothing nut jobs running more than 24" away. And what the hell is that all about? Bring back 2nds charge rules. Declare charge (no pre mesuring), move twice your movement then see if you make it into combat. If you don't make it beprepared to get some rappid fire in your face.

I have no redeeming memories of 2nd edition other than that was the last time the original Eldar existed.

The game itself was terrible.

Aw c'mon. It wasn't that bad.

I forgot about parry! You could make them re-roll 1 of their attack dice IMS. And the whole choose your highest attack dice and add it to your WS (no. of hits is how much you beat them by) was a great sytem. 1's were a fumble (add it to your opponents total), and 6's were criticals (get an extra +1). It took too long when wading through Gretchin and such, but it works great for small battles. Do they still use that system in the new Space Hulk?

I liked how Imperial Plasma guns had to recharge, but Chaos ones didn't, but at the risk of blowing up (older model without safety mechanism).

Holocaust or Vortex psychic power. Saved my skin a number of times. Nothing like casting gate, moving your terminator armoured librarian with force axe close to someone you want to nuke and then unleash an ultimate force powered vortex or holocaust blast next to your target!

Vehicle rules as well - vehicle ramming and individual vehicle damage charts. Assault cannons being able to shred MBT's. Also the fact the anymore than two AFV's in a 1500pts game would raise a few eyebrows as being unusual.

Armour save modifiers, to hit modifiers, movement rates.

All good stuff. I love 2nd edition and would play it in a heartbeat.

The group I play with has actually started playing 2nd edition again. Breaking out the 2nd edition rules for the great unclean one felt great, and then watching my friend try to remember how to use the old rules for the shokk attack gun. This was followed by seeing the look of horror on his opponents face as his hive tyrant gets shot in the face with it. It's nice to use the old rules once in a while.

ENERGY DRAIN!

What our group remembers most about 2nd edition is the poker game of a psychic phase in every1`s turn.
Me personally it was the night the saved strategy card got ripped up. I`ll never forget the look on my mates face that night.

I also saw a harlequin army (using the old citadel journal list) disappear in 1 shot ( iirc it was a SM librarian with a warp spider jump generator and the old holocaust psychic power). 24 harlies died. All that was left was a deathjester and a great harlequin. This was also the last time i ever saw a harlequin army :-(

Ahh the memories are flooding back :-)

The vehicle rules.

One of the primary if not the primary reason I don't play 5th (and didn't play 4th) is due to the terrible vehicle rules. I tollerated the changes in 3rd, but I was mentally screaming for my 2nd Ed vehicles.

I did so love tank wars in 2nd Ed. After Necromunda (which was a better platform for the 2nd Ed rules than 2nd Ed was), 2nd Ed vehicles are my fav thing in 40K.

The cj harlie list was for third edition. It was possible to run a full harlequin army from the eldar list though. And how did an sm Libby get a spider jumper?
I do remember the avatar - 300pts of fiery death, ws and I 10 made him untouchable in combat, t8, 7 wounds, terror, not immune to las but a 2+|4++ against anything, immune to melta plasma flame gas poison virus and blinding - one of the few things around that could go toe to toe with a bloodthirster. The wailing doom was pretty badass too.
In fact eldar in general were ott: hawk exarch with brightlance, jumping around 3 feet a turn busting everything up, pop-up attacks by skimmers, wraithcannon, webspinners etc able to destroy anything regardless of wounds or save, witchblades superior to already awesome force weapons (+1s per psyker level, auto wound daemons and negate daemonic saves for a start) and who could forget the hilarious shrieker cannon? I could go on...
Good times, I miss being the broken army.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:The vehicle rules.

One of the primary if not the primary reason I don't play 5th (and didn't play 4th) is due to the terrible vehicle rules. I tollerated the changes in 3rd, but I was mentally screaming for my 2nd Ed vehicles.

I did so love tank wars in 2nd Ed. After Necromunda (which was a better platform for the 2nd Ed rules than 2nd Ed was), 2nd Ed vehicles are my fav thing in 40K.

Vehicles were crazy. So damn complex, there's a reason they changed the rules. Fun though; what was the front armour on a Russ, 27? And the battlewagon could transport as many models as you could fit on it - if they fell off when you moved it they counted as such - kickass!

2nd Edition was the height of 40K. It was all downhill after 3rd. That was where the game transitioned from a wargame by wargamers to a wargame by a company that sells miniatures in bulk.

Overcomplicated at times? Yes. Time consuming? Yep. Full of little problems that need to be house ruled? Yep. Lots of broken equipment that most gamers had to agree not to use? Sure. But it had a good balance of complexity and options. Plus a much higher fun factor and a better overall ruleset than any other edition.

Or, put another way, it went from a wargame by people making up random rules in their basement to a wargame made by game designers.

I never played 2nd ed, and I'm glad I don't have that taint clinging to me. Having units and game rules change every month that you had to buy white dwarf for. Every unit having their own set of special rules that made no sense compared to everything else, and with little in the way of standardized equipment. Games with a few dozen models on each side that took 5 hours to play because you could never remember such a convoluted, ever-shifting rules set.

From what I've heard, 2nd edition wasn't a wargame, it was an over-complicated role-playing experience loosely tied to miniatures. I can see how in the right circumstances with the right people it might be fun.

For every other time I want to play a real game, well...

I was going to dismiss your opinion out of hand since you admit you never actually played the game Ailaros but thats a bit harsh so I'll respond to your points:

Or, put another way, it went from a wargame by people making up random rules in their basement to a wargame made by game designers.

No, it went from a semi indie style game system to a mainstream one, which now has a ruleset that is easy to get into and a lot of the aspects of the game simplified.
Is that a good or bad thing? That is entirely dependant on what you consider fun. I loved 2nd ed despite its glaring flaws. It was indepth, tactical and engaging. However, I also like 5th because it is that bit simpler/faster and easier to manage.

To dismiss the original design team as people making up random rules is both condescening and frankly simply false. Some of the rules were exceptionally thought out and easily trump later editions. The problem was that, as an overall system it had flaws. Its almost like they took each rule subset in isolation and didnt look at the big picture which affected gameplay overall. However, those subsets in some cases were excellent: Mission cards, psychic powers, vehicle rules (up to a point), psychology rules, individual army rules etc.
I personally loved the "to hit minus" modifiers and its very interesting that in the recently leaked ruleset, whether true or false, they are mentioned again.

I never played 2nd ed, and I'm glad I don't have that taint clinging to me.

What taint might that be? The experience of having played a different ruleset and examining its strenghts/weaknesses. Adapting tactics and strategy to meet those needs and having a bucket load of fun whilst doing it? A puerile comment to be honest.

Having units and game rules change every month that you had to buy white dwarf for. Every unit having their own set of special rules that made no sense compared to everything else,

I will acknowledge this point, however its exaggerated, new rules did not get relased every issue of white dwarf and you didnt need to pick up every copy.
As mentioned above, yes certain special rules didnt fit with the overall game dynamic but it didnt break the game. Personnally I loathed overwatch, I thought it was broken but you adapted to it or modified it as a house rule. The now uttely infamous virus grenade was so poorly thought out it was criminal but it simply got banned in my gaming group.
Having a mid level character with suped up wargear tear though 3 or 4 of your squads (simply because of said wargear)was infuriating but a wargear limit cap just got slapped on them. 2nd ed was beautiful because it allowed you the flexibility to adapt and change here and there within the ruleset because of its complexity. With 5th for example you just cant do that.

and with little in the way of standardized equipment. Games with a few dozen models on each side that took 5 hours to play because you could never remember such a convoluted, ever-shifting rules set.

Where you see a need for standardised equipment to speed up and simplify a game I see a tedius one dimensionality. I absolutely adored the vast range of equipment, wargear, weapons, powers and tweaks one could make to things. You mentioned it was almost like an RPG in some respects, thats very true and that was one of its strenghts imho.

It certainly did take longer to play then more recent editions but not because one couldnt remember the rules or because the ruleset had shifted. I had an encyclopedic knowledge of 2nd back in the day, scarily so but the games still took longer due to the complexity of things. However, that for many people was part of the fun, there were so many combos one could use, especially in the psychic phase.

From what I've heard, 2nd edition wasn't a wargame, it was an over-complicated role-playing experience loosely tied to miniatures. I can see how in the right circumstances with the right people it might be fun.

Exactly, at least you can acknowledge that.

For every other time I want to play a real game, well...

A real game? What a strangely broad definition. Chess maybe? Axis and Allies? tiddlywinks?

5th edition is much better than the one before, but I really want (simple) grenade, crew and special missles rules back.

Always liked the strategy cards ,too.

I'll second everything Ratius stated above except the overwatch statement. I can't count how many times I needed overwatch in 5th edition.

Yes, I really miss the good old days.

1. Overwatch that made games static drawn-out boring affairs. Anybody that wants Overwatch back didn't play in 2ed, or plays IG now.

2. Allies rules that allowed armies to plug up any perceived "faults" in your codex.

3. Smoke markers that persisted and had to be rolled for every turn.

4. The crazy amount of modifiers.

5. Virus grenade/attack that wiped entire armies.

6. Ablative Armour vehicle wargear card...that was obligatory.

7. Unnecessary complex vehicle rules.

Yeah, those were the days.

/sarcasm

I do get nostalgic about strategy/wargear cards, the Genestealer Cult having its own army list, Blood Angels being mostly or at least more of a codex chapter, having a whole book of wargear, covering things from crossbows to anti-plant grenades to conversion beamers. And of course what feels like a perverse game of hot potato with vortex grenades. The list goes on but I think 5th edition is, despite its flaws, a vastly superior game.

Individual vehicle charts may have been good in some respects. However, i prefer not having to study data sheets for every single target i may want to fire at and I mostly remember bikes as being deathtraps. Oh, so you penetrated AV 10? Okay, a tire comes off and the Space Marine Hero dies.


cheers

Meh minor flaws to me Steelmage, but to each their own

I got some old IG codex's from a friend, and feth were they horrible.

Suffice to say, I love 5th edition compared to these.....monstrosities. Atleast it's an actual game, rather than a bunch of people who said "LOL WOULDNLT THIS BE COOL BRAH", and than made it a rule. I don't get how people say Matt Ward is bad, these old codex's were full or stupid ridiculous stuff.

Horrible how so?

Did you play a full game of 2nd ed? If so care to expand on above?

If not, are you taking a single 2nd ed codex in isolation of the main ruleset and trying to evaluate it?

Genuinely open to your views here, bearing in mind sweeping statements are sweeping.


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My bad, you said old Codexes, could have been 3/4th.

I never played 2nd Ed much at all. I started modelling when it existed, but really only played actual 40K when 3rd came out. I do however, have Necromunda and Gorkamorka from the years they were released, and absolutely love them!

I've really been thinking of getting enough 2nd Edition stuff to be able to play small games. I have several codex's and all the vehicle "datafax cards" I would ever need for the races I own, so I'd mostly need a couple of others and the rules that came with the boxed game. I priced it out on Amazon once and it would cost me about 50 bucks.

From what I know from 2nd Ed rules, it seemed they were geared more towards games just bigger than a skirmish, not the gigantor apocolypse games GW is pushing now. In games with 2/3 squads, a bike squad or a land speeder and a character, the modifiers never seemed to get overwhelming. People that really hate 2nd probably were trying to shoehorn in games that were too large for what the rules could "handle".

Hell, I have thought many times about dropping unit cohesion from the Rogue Trader rulebook I have and playing some good 'ole Necromunda style games of about 2-300 points. That's about ten guys and a character, give or take based on race. You can even get new races like Kroot Mercs because RT let you build and price figures based on stats.

Of course.......you take unit cohesion from 2nd ed rules, and a small points limit, and you basically have Necromunda with Space marines and Eldar and Orks.......hmmm, that sounds fun!

AegisGrimm wrote:I never played 2nd Ed much at all. I started modelling when it existed, but really only played actual 40K when 3rd came out. I do however, have Necromunda and Gorkamorka from the years they were released, and absolutely love them!

I've really been thinking of getting enough 2nd Edition stuff to be able to play small games. I have several codex's and all the vehicle "datafax cards" I would ever need for the races I own, so I'd mostly need a couple of others and the rules that came with the boxed game. I priced it out on Amazon once and it would cost me about 50 bucks.

From what I know from 2nd Ed rules, it seemed they were geared more towards games just bigger than a skirmish, not the gigantor apocolypse games GW is pushing now. In games with 2/3 squads, a bike squad or a land speeder and a character, the modifiers never seemed to get overwhelming. People that really hate 2nd probably were trying to shoehorn in games that were too large for what the rules could "handle".

Hell, I have thought many times about dropping unit cohesion from the Rogue Trader rulebook I have and playing some good 'ole Necromunda style games of about 2-300 points. That's about ten guys and a character, give or take based on race. You can even get new races like Kroot Mercs because RT let you build and price figures based on stats.

Of course.......you take unit cohesion from 2nd ed rules, and a small points limit, and you basically have Necromunda with Space marines and Eldar and Orks.......hmmm, that sounds fun!

This intrigues me this idea.
Mind you 2nd was ment to be played at the comfortably points of 1000. Remember the cost of Gray Knights and the cost to deep strike them? 400+! And yet...mmmmm... I might and try to give this a go if I can at some point

With all this talk about 2nd Ed , look what I found at the bottom of one of my bitz boxs today

You know you have to build it and have it in every battle just becouse it willl anoy the younger pllayers

*salutes Abolson*


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LOL

"But you can;t use that... that's not an official model. Look- it looks totally different from the real version!

The mark of age, heard over GW game tables the world over.

The only modern tank I own is a friggin' Land Raider Crusader, and it's from when it first came out and all the guns are metal! I own 8 tanks that are some version of the original "both sides can be the top" rhino.

^^ love

In second even Eldar could have a power fist in a close combat squad although it was callled a power glove.

Yeah I've still got a couple of stormies with the power glove/flamer combo. And I miss the old rhinos they were so wee... space marines pack well obviously.