Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Now assuming a list already has a solid number of troops (or has a HQ with grand strategy), is there any reason to take the GKSS over the Purifiers? Pretty much the same in shooting (same number of psycannons, the GKSSs have a few more stormbolter shots (4)). Purifiers are WAY better in CC, even if they don't seek out assault they will be less likely to be charged. The big difference is that there are 10 strikers for the 8 purifiers. But I don't know how much that matters. What do you guys think?
Only reason youd take strike is theyre a better objective sitter in a game like capture control. But I'd never take them above 5. I just want them preventing ds and holding the objective.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
Being an ork player... I am disgusted and will expect to see crowe lists... Purifiers that are troops where one surviving purifier can potentially kill an entire swarm of orks, tyrannids, kroot, etc (low AC troops in large numbers)
DAaddict wrote:Being an ork player... I am disgusted and will expect to see crowe lists... Purifiers that are troops where one surviving purifier can potentially kill an entire swarm of orks, tyrannids, kroot, etc (low AC troops in large numbers)
The Orks deserve it. As a MEQ player I am tired of the Orks autowinning everytime they reach my lines. The Greenskins should fear the power of the Imperium.
MrDrumMachine wrote:You're missing out on the ability to combat squad which is a big deal, but really the extra 2 bodies are worth it.
True about the combat squad option which I forgot to mention.
I was thinking of doing a hybrid henchmen list, with several smallish henchmen units and a couple of full GKSS squads. 6 Troops choices which fit into 1500 pretty well. But if I drop 1 or 2 of the GKSS squads, I'd have less MeQ but more CC ability... but of course less troops. Relying on the weenie henchmen to hold objectives may work out ok, if I can more easily kill opposing units with the purifiers.
Now assuming a list already has a solid number of troops (or has a HQ with grand strategy), is there any reason to take the GKSS over the Purifiers? Pretty much the same in shooting (same number of psycannons, the GKSSs have a few more stormbolter shots (4)). Purifiers are WAY better in CC, even if they don't seek out assault they will be less likely to be charged. The big difference is that there are 10 strikers for the 8 purifiers. But I don't know how much that matters. What do you guys think?
The above combinations for the Purifiers are some of the more common combinations I see/use. For the GKSS to match the same combinations the point savings are quite modest to the point of not being nearly as efficient. In every combination the effectiveness of the Purifiers whether shooting or in close combat is approximately double the GKSS.
But . . . bear in mind that the Purifiers have to absorb the cost of Crowe in order to truly weigh their efficiency. If there are 30 Purifiers in a list then EVERY Purifier effectively costs 5 more points per model. If 25 Purifier models, then the penalty is another 6 points per model. 50 Purifiers are 3 points per model. [Of course, Crowe has his uses so all of those points are not merely a penalty.]
The true cost for Purifiers is having to use a HQ unit that might not perfectly fit your army design. One cannot use Purifiers and play with only a single Grand Master, or with 2 Inquisitors, or 2 Librarians, etc...
Finally, while the point differential may be modest, it still means that Purifier lists have 10 - 20 fewer models/wounds. The dearth of wounds is huge (partially offset by fearless) because this is the central weakness of the GK codex and Purifiers exacerbate the situation (though not as much as Draigo wing).
In my experience . . . the win loss percentage of GK players is roughly the same whether Crowe is used or not. Thus, the skilled players win with all types of GK builds whether using Crowe or other lists while the less skilled struggle to win just the same whether using Crowe or not. Bear in mind that 70+ SW or shooty IG lists kill Purifiers just as easily as any other power armor marine of any flavor. If you want to play Purifiers become comfortable with being outnumbered 2 to 1 versus all the marine armies and even more badly outnumbered versus everything else in the 40K universe.
My point is that Purifiers, while admittedly good, certainly are not an auto-win build. I still rate IG and SW as stronger codexes and BA, Necron, CSM, etc... as equivalent to the GK codex.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/11 06:28:20
LONGWAR DOUBLES '18 in Temecula: Overall Champions
ADEPTICON '16 Team Tourney: Best Xenos
ADEPTICON '14 Team Tourney 4th/120
ADEPTICON '13: Best Team Tacticians
ADEPTICON '12: Team Tourney 6th/116
Comparing 10 GKSS to 8 purifiers is not a fair comparison--even if they cost a similiar amount. This is because of how you rate a unit. If you rate a unit by its shooting, then 5 purifiers shoot the same psycannons as 10 GKSS, and 10 purifiers shoot twice as many.
Also, 5 purifiers can buy the same transports as 8 or 10 models. Meaning if you want lots of transports then small units are king.
Likewise, buying 2 units of 5 GKSS costs identical, but you get 2 sarges and the ability to buy 2 transports. Since the transports are so amazing, and the sarge's extra attack benefit more from the close combat weapons, I wouldnt even consider 10 strong GKSS units without some other factor that has not been mentioned.
Anyway, GKSS have warpquake, which I think is a terrible power, but it must be said that it can and does win games. With about 4 units of 5 GKSS, you cover almost all of the board. By doing this, you save points over 4 purifier squads while losing 4 psycannons total. Now, since the core troops are also filled by doing this, you additionally save 150 on crowe. This means you still get 3 units of purifiers and 3 dreads and a great utility HQ like Coteaz or a inquisitor.
DevianID wrote:
Likewise, buying 2 units of 5 GKSS costs identical, but you get 2 sarges and the ability to buy 2 transports. Since the transports are so amazing, and the sarge's extra attack benefit more from the close combat weapons, I wouldnt even consider 10 strong GKSS units without some other factor that has not been mentioned.
Psybolt ammo? Annihilation missions?
Where it makes more sense to take strike squads over purifiers is if you want to do a pure GK psyback-spam.
Then again, if you want to do GK psyback-spam, better to get Coteaz and henchmen for troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/11 07:02:28
Jy2, psybolt ammo, while nice, is not the selling point of GKSS. For 20 points, you get the upgrade to s5 on 16 bolter shots, or for 50 points you get a second psyrazor, while keeping the 16 s4 stormbolter shots.
As for annilation missions, if you are concerned about kill points, the GK have the best KP denial build around, and its not running lots of GKSS.
DevianID wrote:As for annilation missions, if you are concerned about kill points, the GK have the best KP denial build around, and its not running lots of GKSS.
Aaaand there's also not spamming MSU + Psyback, which is what your previous post recommended.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/11 11:54:05
Right. So basicly, why take gkss in big blocks when other options provide more shooting, more combat, more bodies, or less kill points. Now, 5 man gkss with razors have a place. 2x5 gkss have a better profile and more vehicle options than 1x10 gkss. 10 man gkss offer less kill points, which is not a net advantage in 5th ed. They also give discounted psybolts compared to psybolts on 2x5 gkss, but again that is not a net positive.
By all means, if you are tailoring versus a specific opponent I can find a use for 10 man gkss. But in a take all comers with all normal missions considered, why bother?
2012/02/11 14:13:45
Subject: Re:Purifiers and GKSS, something I noticed
2x5SS in psybacks, one placed near each flank of your army renders pretty much any deep strike into a pretty silly idea. A daemon player meanwhile is forced to DS a minimum of 19" away from ANY warp-quake capable squad to avoid scattering into the quakezone. So that means you can use 5 strikes to effectively block off a roughly 38"-42" section of table depending on your spacing between your models.
Warp Quake also nulifies any type of DS beacons like tele homers and more worryingly, icons. If you *really* want to be a TFG, you can argue that chaos marines lose their relevent mark as well since it's tied into the icon itself. (and quake means any item that prevents DS scatter "ceases to function".)
Hence why I won't fight any GK player in a 'friendly' game unless they first agree to NOT use warp quake!
(I also promise not to flamer-bomb them in return because WQ means I should *never* be able to land within template range!)
On a 6'x4' table, you only need 30 warp quake capable models to lock-off the entire table when using the max 2" coherency between models. Warp Quake is broken in my book. Give it a range of only 6" and it would still do it's job fine... (note how all the Necrons similar powers only have a max 6" range! Clearly warp quake is OTT )
DevianID wrote:Jy2, psybolt ammo, while nice, is not the selling point of GKSS. For 20 points, you get the upgrade to s5 on 16 bolter shots, or for 50 points you get a second psyrazor, while keeping the 16 s4 stormbolter shots.
As for annilation missions, if you are concerned about kill points, the GK have the best KP denial build around, and its not running lots of GKSS.
It all really depends on what style of list you want to run. In this case, the OP is talking about 10-man SS, in which case Psybolt Ammo makes sense. Heck, I think 10-man SS is a viable build....especially if you want to spam infantry. I wouldn't mind using this type of list:
^ Sorta boring though... Seems like a chore to play.
grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
DAaddict wrote:Being an ork player... I am disgusted and will expect to see crowe lists... Purifiers that are troops where one surviving purifier can potentially kill an entire swarm of orks, tyrannids, kroot, etc (low AC troops in large numbers)
The Orks deserve it. As a MEQ player I am tired of the Orks autowinning everytime they reach my lines. The Greenskins should fear the power of the Imperium.
No... Just... No...
Also, that is another why I hate Purifiers.
40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies) KHADOR X-Wing (Empire Strong)
Ouze wrote: I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
Now assuming a list already has a solid number of troops (or has a HQ with grand strategy), is there any reason to take the GKSS over the Purifiers? Pretty much the same in shooting (same number of psycannons, the GKSSs have a few more stormbolter shots (4)). Purifiers are WAY better in CC, even if they don't seek out assault they will be less likely to be charged. The big difference is that there are 10 strikers for the 8 purifiers. But I don't know how much that matters. What do you guys think?
yeah purifiers are better, just plain better. if you can get them as a troop and have elite slots best to go for it.
its not the only list that has an elite that is just plain better than its troop. DE Trueborn>>>DE Warriors, but there is no way to make them troops hence you dont compare them. Let's say Vect made Trueborn into Troops, would anyone ever run warrior squads?
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Jy2, we have a player in our area that runs something similiar to that--its 50 GKSS, Coteaz, libby, and henchmen unit. It does well versus some armies, but folds to others. A walking mass of bodies with lots of stormbolters is not bad, but there are a few dedicated assault units that eat more or less the entire force. Also, it loses to real horde units, not that you see them too often. Finally, it has trouble versus reserves followed by tank shocking off objectives on turn 5 for the win.
2000
2000
WIP
3000
8000 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
)
KHADOR 
X-Wing (Empire Strong) 
