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Here are the hard(est) counter for certain units that I have learned so far:

TH/SS Terminators -> Null Zone + Plasma Rapid Fire
Mephiston -> Meltagun + Charge or Arjac
Stormraven -> AC Lascannon sponson Predator

Would you guys care to expand?

NOTE: Hard counter of a rock is a paper. There is little to nothing that one can do against a hard counter. The hard counter is usually units/wargear/abilities/build that is specific to counter a unit/wargear/abilities.

Why would someone leave Mephiston (18"+d6" threat range) within range of enemy melta guns? Anyway, rapid firing plasma guns does it better.
Not entirely sure what you mean by "hard counter" anyway tbh.

Your opponent might have him in a Stormraven that get popped. There are circumstances when this happen. Melta then charge Mephiston is always better than Plasma Rapid Fire then get creamed by him.

Joey wrote:Why would someone leave Mephiston (18"+d6" threat range) within range of enemy melta guns? Anyway, rapid firing plasma guns does it better.
Not entirely sure what you mean by "hard counter" anyway tbh.

A hard counter is something that counteracts something where that something has no chance to respond or get around the counter. Example: AV 14 vs S7 spam. AV 14 is hard counter vs auto-cannons.

Its slang from MtG IIRC. Counter spell straight out counters the target. Mana leak allows the enemy to avoid the counter at cost. Things that straight out negate something are hard, things you can still fight through or don't work every-time are soft.

His examples are soft counters, or just regular counters (due to randomness of 40k). Dreads are nearly a hard counter to infantry in CC, grenades and powerfists make them into soft counters. Melta guns are counters to armor, but they aren't a hard counter due to randomness and range.



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leohart wrote:Your opponent might have him in a Stormraven that get popped. There are circumstances when this happen. Melta then charge Mephiston is always better than Plasma Rapid Fire then get creamed by him.

Why do people take storm ravens for just one guy? Its not like he can join a squad...

The most inexpensive counter to Mephiston I've found is a 100pt Lone Wolf - TH/SS + 2 Fenrisian Wolves. It has some risk associated with it (the model itself only has 2 wounds, although the Wolves can make this effectively 6 before he dies), but if you have a Rune Priest nearby to nullify Unleash Rage then the Lone Wolf should be able to squash Mephiston with embarrassing ease.

Am I missing some special abilities that the LoneWolf has? It takes 4+ and 2+ to wound Mephiston.

@notabot187: Stomraven with Mephiston + Blood Talon dreadnought is a very big thing to worry about.

leohart wrote:Your opponent might have him in a Stormraven that get popped. There are circumstances when this happen. Melta then charge Mephiston is always better than Plasma Rapid Fire then get creamed by him.

Mind explaning why you think this is the case?


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leohart wrote:Am I missing some special abilities that the LoneWolf has? It takes 4+ and 2+ to wound Mephiston.

@notabot187: Stomraven with Mephiston + Blood Talon dreadnought is a very big thing to worry about.

At +600pts that comes as little surprise...

Isn't the hard counter to Mephiston simply assault terminators?

@tedurur: Mephiston has 5 attack base (already counted two weapons). At 3+, 2+, he most likely will kill 4 out of the 5 members of my squad. If he charges, he will wipe them out. So throwing a melta at his face (get 1 wound off him), then tarpit him for his turn is a better counter than (getting 2 wound off him), then he stucks somewhere else I do not want.

Granted, I am a new player so my analysis will probably be off. Hence this thread.

leohart wrote:Your opponent might have him in a Stormraven that get popped. There are circumstances when this happen. Melta then charge Mephiston is always better than Plasma Rapid Fire then get creamed by him.

Uhm no. 6 shots is more than 3, last time I checked. And charging Mephiston with veterans...go nuts.


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Polonius wrote:Isn't the hard counter to Mephiston simply assault terminators?

For the same cost as Mephiston you can get two squads of plasma vets shooting 12 shots at <12". That's 8 hits, ~6 wounds. Plasma vets pretty much make Mephiston redundant as I discovered yesterday when I managed to kill a (covered) Mephiston relatively easily in my first turn.

I know one you missed:

Any tau army -> Assault them

For 250 pts I can get two squad of plasma vets? DA? or C:SM?

Stormraven -> AC Lascannon sponson Predator
---------------------------
when the SR flat out
1 AC shot: 1*2/3*(1/6*1/6+1/6*1/2)*1/2=1/27
1 LC shot: 1*2/3*(1/6*1/6+1/2*1/2)*1/2=5/54

With 2AC and 2LC shots, you have 100%-(26/27*26/27*49/54*49/54)=23.65% chance to wreck a flat outed SR.

If the SR didn't flat out
1 AC shot: 1*2/3*1/6*1/3=1/27
1 LC shot: 1*2/3*1/2*1/3=1/9
With 2AC and 2LC shots, you have 100%-(26/27*26/27*8/9*8/9)=26.7% chance to wreck a SR.


"hard(est) counter " ?

Joey wrote:Why would someone leave Mephiston (18"+d6" threat range) within range of enemy melta guns? Anyway, rapid firing plasma guns does it better.
Not entirely sure what you mean by "hard counter" anyway tbh.

It's totally impossible for Meph to get lucky and wipe out a squad on your turn, leaving him vulnerable to getting shot on your opponents turn.

Just saying.

leohart wrote:For 250 pts I can get two squad of plasma vets? DA? or C:SM?

Plasma vets are 115 each, so enough points for two squads with a lascannon thrown in.

leohart wrote:@tedurur: Mephiston has 5 attack base (already counted two weapons). At 3+, 2+, he most likely will kill 4 out of the 5 members of my squad. If he charges, he will wipe them out. So throwing a melta at his face (get 1 wound off him), then tarpit him for his turn is a better counter than (getting 2 wound off him), then he stucks somewhere else I do not want.

Granted, I am a new player so my analysis will probably be off. Hence this thread.

I would not be banking on staying in CC with a ld of 5...

@apple1988218: I agree that predator is probably not the hard counter but your math is incorrect

1- When enemy's SR goes flat out, it doesn't get wrecked on your turn. The FAQ has answered this.
2- 100%-(26/27*26/27*51/54*51/54) is not correct. It should be 100%-(26/27*26/27*49/54*49/54) = 23.6%
3- Your calculation for SR without flat out is not consistent with SR going flat out. For SR flatting out, you accept a 4+ on the vehicle damage chart as an acceptable outcome while on SR not flatting out, you didn't.

@rigeld2: unlikely, but not impossible. He has 5 attacks and probability is a b****.

@Joey: :( Good for you IG getting plasma veterans. The only guys who can get 5 plasma guns in C:SM is Command Squad. And that clocks in at twice that cost.

@tedurur: Agree. One would need either Fearless or Stubborn.

leohart wrote:1- When enemy's SR goes flat out, it doesn't get wrecked on your turn. The FAQ has answered this.

Immobilized results on a vehicle that moved Flat Out become Wrecked.

What the FAQ covers is what happens to the passengers; if your vehicle moves Flat Out on your turn, the passengers aren't automatically destroyed if the vehicle is destroyed in your opponent's turn.

Here I am missing the rules up again :(. My apology.

Ranting

/Ranting

Ok people, so aside from plasma vets, what else can bring those damn Stormraven in line?

leohart wrote:@rigeld2: unlikely, but not impossible. He has 5 attacks and probability is a b****.

I didn't put the </sarcasm> on there because I felt it was pretty obvious. You can't control how well you roll vs. how well your opponent rolls. If you win combat and he fails his morale check... Mephy is all alone waiting to be shot.

I played a BA player this weekend at a local tourney. He brought the following
* Stormraven *3
* Mephiston
* 2 LR god-hammers
* Death company dread
* 3 Assault Squads in LRs or Raven

He won his first 2 games, tabling the second player. They just did not have the tools to handle his list's alpha strike and use.
I played mech'dar with 3 fire dragons squads and Yuriel esorting a seer council. I nearly tabled him. He got countered HARD.
Ill post a battle report when I have more time.

@labmouse42: That would be awesome.

Its subjective.

I have a landraider I am trying to counter. I can counter this easily with 10 sternguard in a pod with combimeltas. I can also counter this with say 2 (maybe even 3) MM/HF or why not since we're vacuuming it MM/MM speeders (that's vaguely in the area of the sternguard, pointswise (vaguely)). Both of these choices are hard counters. But which one is hard-est?

In other words- If rock beats scissors, do I take the big flat one or do I take the one that's nobbly and ridged but smaller?

labmouse42 wrote:I played a BA player this weekend at a local tourney. He brought the following
* Stormraven *3
* Mephiston
* 2 LR god-hammers
* Death company dread
* 3 Assault Squads in LRs or Raven

He won his first 2 games, tabling the second player. They just did not have the tools to handle his list's alpha strike and use.
I played mech'dar with 3 fire dragons squads and Yuriel esorting a seer council. I nearly tabled him. He got countered HARD.
Ill post a battle report when I have more time.

That list is illegal. A DC dread can only be taken per 5 DC troop models. You guys got cheated.

Everything in the game < Orbital Bombardment

Am I doing it right?

Project2501 wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I played a BA player this weekend at a local tourney. He brought the following
* Stormraven *3
* Mephiston
* 2 LR god-hammers
* Death company dread
* 3 Assault Squads in LRs or Raven

He won his first 2 games, tabling the second player. They just did not have the tools to handle his list's alpha strike and use.
I played mech'dar with 3 fire dragons squads and Yuriel esorting a seer council. I nearly tabled him. He got countered HARD.
Ill post a battle report when I have more time.

That list is illegal. A DC dread can only be taken per 5 DC troop models. You guys got cheated.

Or more likely I don't know the codex well enough to recite what kind of dread he used. Ill admit I don't know the BA codex that well. All I know is the dread had 2 claws and tore up some warlocks.

That's much more likely than him cheating.

labmouse42 wrote:I played a BA player this weekend at a local tourney. He brought the following
* Stormraven *3
* Mephiston
* 2 LR god-hammers
* Death company dread
* 3 Assault Squads in LRs or Raven

He won his first 2 games, tabling the second player. They just did not have the tools to handle his list's alpha strike

Where's the alpha strike in that army?

If it is not painted Black, probably Furioso.

DarknessEternal wrote:Where's the alpha strike in that army?

I was waiting for someone to bite.

I was actually quite surprised to see how much fire the stormchickens could put out in one round. He had each stormchicken move 6" and fire four STR 8 shots, one TL LC and one TL MM. As I moved up with serpents the MM was in range. When combined with the 4 LCs and 2 MMs on them, it was an unexpected first found of shooting. To summarize.
* 12 bloodstrike missiles
* 7 TL LC
* 5 MM (2 TL)
Does it match up to a guard army or GK shooting army? No. Was it considerably more than I expected? Yes.
The player tabled a DoA army in the 2nd round, and also won his first round.

labmouse42 wrote:Or more likely I don't know the codex well...

No worries. Just didn't want anyone to be cheated was all.


Edit: quoted wrong post :/