TasadarTheMadBear wrote:I'm thinking of starting a new army and one idea I'm toying with is a SW drop pod assault army. So far my list is looking like this:
1-2 Blood Claw Packs
3-4 Grey Hunter Packs
2-3 Long Fang Packs
0-1 Wolf Guard Packs
Dreagdnought or Bjorn the Fell-Handed
Ragnar Blackmane or Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Everything in a Drop Pod
As someone said before, Bjorn can't take a pod. Logan and Njal have their uses, but Ragnar is the best for Drop Pods in my opinion. At most I would take him. He's relatively cheap compared to a Wolf Lord. Same kit for a normal Wolf Lord is ~200 points so you are paying 40 points for his Insane Bravado and Warhowl. Well worth it in my opinion.
I wouldn't bother spending too many points on
HQs or even elites. You want as large a first wave as possible, so depending on point size you have 5, 7, or 9 pods you probably want to bring.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:My plan is to put Bjorn, the Long Fangs, and one Grey Hunter squad (set up for long range) in the first wave. Between all of them I have some very powerful firepower, objective holders, and a very tough nut to crack in the form of Bjorn. Ragnar would lead my second wave of drop pods that would include everything else (all set up for close combat). I have never played SW so I have no idea how effective the units or characters are.
Bad idea. If you aren't just setting up your Long Fangs and using empty drop pods, they should definitely be in your first wave. But keep in mind that you cannot assault the turn they arrive. You will want Ragnar in the first wave in case you need his Furious Charge.
Also, you seem to misunderstand the difference between Grey Hunters and Blood Claws. Grey Hunters are excellent in close combat. With a Wolf Standard, they are amazing with Ragnar (far better than Blood Claws). While I'm not against a single squad of Blood Claws, it would probably be your 6th troop choice and not one of your core ones. Unless you are willing to weaken your army's flexibility on a want.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Do I need to start the with a unit on the table or can everything be part of the Drop Pod Assault?
Per the
FAQ for all Space Marines, you can deploy empty Drop Pods. So you could setup a Long Fang unit on the table and deploy their pod empty in order to game the number of pods coming in on Turn 1. At the same time, you don't have to deploy anything in any game that allows Reserves. I believe Drop Pods overrule that as well anyways, so even if the Mission doesn't allow for Reserves you still deploy as if from Reserve.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Does the list seem effective at what I want it to do?
Not sure. You didn't actually provide a army list, just a list of units. How many models and what options they are bringing is sort of important.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Have I devoted to many points on Characters (Bjorn and Ragnar together are over 500 points)?
I'd say you are spending too many points there. Drop Pod armies need numbers since half the army is reserved. Ragnar is spendy enough at 240 points. Maybe a Rune Priest at 100-125 but no more than that in
HQs. You need boots on the ground.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Will Bjorn get shot up immediately since he is the only vehicle?
Always. Even if you have other vehicles. He's Bjorn. Luckily he's tough to kill. Don't forget the Drop Pods are vehicles by the way. People often talk of how they are easy kill points, but in Objective based games people tend not to worry about them until later. Especially if you are putting pressure on them with your army. You'd be surprised how often you can contest objectives because of this. AV12, even open topped, is not an auto-kill. Also, don't glue the doors shut. You'd be surprised how much damage 5-9 Storm Bolters can do to infantry units. I can honestly say I've had two games where I needed the extra shots.
Heimer wrote:What a drop pod army does is get you where want - once. This means, that you have practically no redeployment possibilities later on in the game. That is worth keeping in mind while dropping your pods. For instance if you play capture and control, you should propably keep in mind that you need a squad on your own objective, and plan movement or dropping accordingly.
Definitely keep this in mind. But also remember that you have half your army in reserve. Fresh units of Grey Hunters coming in later in the game can easily claim your home objective and other objectives. Its an aggressive army build so you have to learn to use the Drop Pods as weapons. Block lanes of movement and fire. Don't be afraid to keep the Drop Pod between your squad and the enemy if needed. There are a lot of tactics available that aren't immediately apparent.
Heimer wrote:Combined with the "drop pod assault" rule forcing you to drop half your pods on turn 1, many opponents actually gets an advantage from the lack of redeployment abilities - they reserve everything, and then come on the board in a place where you can't really hurt them, while they can still hurt you.
The enemy reserving their army is a two edged sword. This works best for Dark Eldar, Mechdar, and Imperial Guard. Possibly new Necrons. If someone does this to you, don't fret too much. 2/3 games are Objective based, so land your pods around the objective closest to their board edge. Don't spread out too much unless cover is advantageous. The enemy will come on the board piecemeal. If they get some lucky rolls it could be annoying for you, but still not an auto-lose.
Heimer wrote:Blood claws are really not suited for a drop pod army, however much you (and I) would like them to be. They lack the things drop podding units need (the ability to shoot well and the redundancy to get shot at and take a charge in their faces), while their strengths are completely negated by the unability to assault after a deep strike.
Blood Claws, while not as amazing as Grey Hunters, do have their own role to play. I can see room for one unit in the first wave. The handy thing about them is that they can take casualties while still being effective and you generally won't mind throwing them at things you'd prefer to keep off your more important Grey Hunters. Yes, they can't assault when they come in but put them on the first wave. "Smart Generals" reserve their whole army right? So you don't really lose anything since you can really punish someone that didn't reserve their army. Especially if they didn't bubblewrap properly.
Heimer wrote:Long fangs is propably not the best of choices in a drop pod army. A pack or two might not be the worst of choices. They discourage some opponents from using the aforementioned reserve tricks, and you often need the heavy firepower to take down whatever the enemy brings on. The problem with long fangs, however, is their lack of abilities in the turn, on which you drop them - a drop pod pod army need to do some serious damage on arrival.
On the plus side it allows for you to bring Multi-Meltas on some of them. They'll be deployed more forward if you actually pod with them so it won't be as bad a setup as you usually would think. Even better, again most people think you have to reserve against a Drop Pod list so you aren't wasting a turn of shooting. Against the ones that stay on the table, same rules with Blood Claws apply. You can usually punish them with other units for not doing so.
Heimer wrote:This can be negated for a single squad by using Logan Grimnar with the squad, and making them relentless during the turn in which they arrive. Combine it with a wolf guard, with some combi- or heavy weapon, and you have a tank-killing unit, that is able to recieve a charge from a lot of enemies - even a full ork boy mob - and win.
And of course you can just put your long fangs on the table from the beginning, and let the drop pods come in empty.
Logan Grimnar is 275 points. That's a hefty amount for an army that already needs as many pods as possible. Even at 2k points you'll be hard pressed to actually make it work for you.
And saying they'd survive against a full mob of Ork Boyz is a bit of a stretch. Logan is a beast, and Wolf Guard aren't bad. But the Long Fangs themselves have less bodies and less attacks/model than the Grey Hunters. Orks can attack 3 deep. The Long Fangs at best have around 20 attacks, nearly half of which will miss. The Orks on the other hand will have anywhere from 90-120 attacks, of which half will miss. Even Power Armor can't help you against that many numbers.
Heimer wrote:Wolf guards are also very, very nice in a drop pod army. They are usually used in a role where most, if not all, of them tote some kind of combi-weapon - whether you use terminator armours or power armours (or a combination of the two) their combi-weapons is their defining factor in a drop pod army. 8 wolf guards with combi-plasmas, you say? Goodbye, monstrous creature, terminators, marines or any unit like that. Be careful about giving them too much close combat equipment however - they tend to climb in price rather rapidly if not held in check.
Again, too many points are being invested. Your example of 8 combi-plasma is 184 points without the Drop Pod, and they are just Grey Hunters after the Combi weapons are popped. There are better ways of dealing with the
MCs, especially when you will have multiple units coming in close.
Wolf Guard Pack Leaders may not be strictly necessary, at least for every squad. I wouldn't bother with them in any squad with an
IC for example. They'd just be redundant.
Heimer wrote:Dreadnoughts seem very well suited for a drop pod army. They are. You need to use them with care, however. Dont drop it in front of a chimera filled to the rim with melta-toting veterans (or anything equally as destructive against vehicles). Instead drop it close to something that really does not want to be assaulted by it, and which is preferably not able to damage it very easily - heavy infantry-like squads without too many power fists and the like is usually a good choice - that includes other marine squads, bloodcrushers and warwalkers. And, if possible, keep it out of sight or range of anything lethal to vehicles.
You also want to consider its weapons - you need long ranged autocannons on a dread coming down in the enemy's face. A multi-melta or assault cannon are fine choices for a dread like this. A heavy flamer instead of the storm bolter is also worth considering for versatility's sake. (If you are needing flamer templates, you might even consider a dread with 2 heavy flamers - troops in vehicle wil most definitely NOT like that).
I'd stick with the Assault Cannon or Multi-Melta for sure. And don't forget the Extra Armor. Sometimes on Turn 1 however, you'll want to disembark the Dreadnought to block line of sight to your troops or to block movement (set up a vehicle wall with the pods and Dreads) and just pop smoke. Depends what you are facing.
Heimer wrote:Ragnar Blackmane is the leader of the Claws of Russ, the Space Wolves' drop pod assaults made by his great company. You should think he was better in a drop pod army than he is in drop pod assaults, right? He isn't. If you absolutely want to use him, you should make sure that you get a LOT of close combat troops (grey hunters and wolf guards, that is) down in your enemy's face as soon as possible, to take advantage of his war howl ability.
Wow that's amazingly wrong. He only takes up one slot, and his unit gets Furious Charge every time he charges. If you aren't bringing Thunderwolves, Furious Charge is the only thing that will be scary in close combat outside of Dreadnoughts. Warhowl shares that ability once per game with any unit in 12", so you can setup a multi-unit charge with your army. Don't forget, your entire army is above average in close combat. Furious Charge makes them excellent assault troops with I5 and S5.
Heimer wrote:But, to be honest, I would rather take a rune priest in a drop pod army. Give him murderous hurricane and jaws of the world - those are two of his powers that has a nice synergy with the drop pods.
Ugh, miss use of the word synergy. its like a bad management meeting
Jests aside, Rune Priests would be good. Definitely with Murderous Hurricane. Your other power can basically be anything. Storm Caller would be useful, as would Living Lightning. Fury of the Wolf Spirits isn't always terrible (and is AP2 for anti-
MC and anti-Mephiston). I personally dislike
JotWW since its not as useful as the other abilities, but to each their own. I can see the appeal of removing a Tervigon from play. But its not very likely to remove anything with high initative, which is what really threatens Space Wolves in close combat.
Heimer wrote:If you want a named, powerful character, consider Logan Grimnar - he is one of the best space wolves named characters you can use in a drop pod army.
Disagree. You take Logan Grimnar because you want scoring Wolf Guard units. Giving a unit Tank Hunters or Relentless is secondary to that. You don't dump 275 points on a character that needs a Land Raider to transport (unless he hoofs it) unless you take full advantage of him. Plus he takes up 2 spaces in a Drop Pod, relegating him to one-trick ponyhood of putting him with the Long Fangs.
I'd take Ragnar over him any day.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Thanks alot for the info. A few more questions I have; can models in TDA ride in Drop Pods? Do they count as 2?
Yes and yes.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:If I don't take Long Fangs, the only guns big then assault weapons will be on my dreadnoughts, is this a problem and if so what Heavy Support choices would I even include?
One or two packs of Long Fangs is not an insane idea. People just really get locked in to the mindset of "this is a heavy weapon. It can't move and shoot unless on a vehicle. zomg i can't move". That isn't true. You
can move. Just remember the consequences of doing so. If they are in the first wave I do not think its a real problem. Just don't be overly aggressive.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote:I was thinking about adding a Land Speeder Squadron or 2, could these fill the Heavy Weapons gap?
They could. But if they Deep Strike to stick in theme you may not get them immediately. Either way, the Dreadnought is the only one shooting on Turn 1 (maybe a Wolf Guard) with a heavy weapon. With the Long Fangs you can use them on Turn 2. With the Land Speeders you might not get them until Turn 3 or later.
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NO PITY!