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For me, not very, even when I'm playing minis, and less so when I do rpg, whether Dark Heresy, Inquisitor, or original Rogue Trader.

All of my campaigns have included non-canon elements, some made up by GW at various times, and later discarded, such as the Star Child, the Illuminati, and the Sensei. Others I made up out of whole cloth, like my minor chaos powers, the Wolf, the Serpent and the Spider, or the campaign that culminated in my characters helping to create a new Eldar God, to bolster that flagging race.

Why? Is my stuff better than the current canon?

No, but my stuff is unknown.

The 40k universe is supposed to be about dark secrets, but the problem is that the average player going into a 40K campaign knows what to expect. How many people in the 40K universe actually know about the ordo malleus, the names of the four chaos powers, or even what the emperor really is? However, every player knows all of these things, so where is the sense of mystery?

In my games, I have generally told the players to throw out everything they know about the 40K universe when they sit down at the table, and be prepared to learn as they go along.

I have gotten a mixed reception to this. The majority of players seem to accept that more fun can be garnered if they don't know the whole situation, but a surprising number seem to want to play canon and nothing else.

Understand that I don't really change much in the grand scheme of things. The imperium is still autocratic, the inquisition is still a terror, the space marines still fight the orks. What changes is the stuff behind the curtain. Such as:

What if the emperor is really a servant of chaos, and his plan of salvation if a sham? What if he really is chaos' plan to destroy humanity, and must be removed if the race is to regain its freedom?

What if the squats were destroyed by the imperium, who pinned it on the tyranids for some mysterious reason (this one is not original with me)?

What if the reason that the squats were destroyed is that they actually created the perfect tyranid "bug repellent", and the imperium wants the tyranids kept around to cull enemy races, and undesirable elements among humanity?

What if a rogue adeptus mechanicus found a way to accelerate human evolution, and it was possible to create a race of fully evolved humans who could throw off chaos?

etc.

I can deal with minor deviations to the fluff, but I'm not okay with major deviations like Chaos GK and female Space Marines.

^^ same.

had a freind who had both GK and Chaos units in a single Apoc batle and claimed "Oh their thouasand suns and my GK psyker dude is controling them".. and he also had plauge marines and obliderators in the mix too..... my only reaction along with everyone else's was..

Wtf? i really really wanted to be against him in the Apoc match so i could crush him with my IG. but i got the bad dice roll., but i did get to drop a Vortex missle on him to kill a ton of Blood Angels assaulting him.

There are limits on what you can do. You can stray only so far until it makes no sense at all and just couldn't happen.

I hate deviations from the established background, but I love exploring the gaps inbetween. There was a thread about Ecclesiarchal astartes a while ago, which illustrates what I mean. The background makes Ecclesiarchal marines unlikely, but not impossible, and I think it could make an interesting campaign. Where, say, some Imperial authority gets suspicious and starts poking around an Ecclesiarchal training facility, and provokes an all out war between the Ecclesiarchal armies and the local military. Of course the Church itself denies any and all knowledge, leaving their forces for dead, who perhaps turn to Chaos for aid in their time of need?

Stuff like that I like. Fiddling with the background, like saying the Emperor is really a bad guy, or whatever, I don't like so much

Very very big and very very loud.

BOOM!

No but seriously, I'm very interested in the 40K universe as it is and am happy with a lot of what's been established. Therefore I'm happy to play in GW's playground, and probably wouldn't be happy with any major deviations.

Having said that, however, I totally agree with your sentiment of "sometimes mystery is better", and of course, even with a millenia to play with, it's getting a bit full now and while those inside it may be ignorant about most things, I agree it's hard for the outside hobbyist to share a similar ignorance.

I dont mind something small as long as it is small.

Examples I do. I like to claim that the Imperial Guard won Kronus druing Dark Crusade (and won in Winter) and I simply interpret everything thing said in DoW 2 to mean somehting slightly different (not as hard as you think) and that Space Marine occurs but it occurs long after the Chapter Master died with the 1st and 2nd Company Captains moving leadership positions around with Titus simply becoming the next in line.


Small stuff like that that doesnt really have an effect on the great scheme of things. (Well Space Marine does but thats my own personal story so whatever, and its going to happen EVENTUALLY, its not like the 3 guys are immortal and invincible)

Galdos wrote:I dont mind something small as long as it is small.

Examples I do. I like to claim that the Imperial Guard won Kronus druing Dark Crusade (and won in Winter) and I simply interpret everything thing said in DoW 2 to mean somehting slightly different (not as hard as you think) and that Space Marine occurs but it occurs long after the Chapter Master died with the 1st and 2nd Company Captains moving leadership positions around with Titus simply becoming the next in line.


Small stuff like that that doesnt really have an effect on the great scheme of things. (Well Space Marine does but thats my own personal story so whatever, and its going to happen EVENTUALLY, its not like the 3 guys are immortal and invincible)

Lol, THQ said that it takes place in an alternate realithy of 40k
OT: I dont mind aslong as it make sense.
Not the GK and deamons working together to defeat chaos marines

I really don't care how canon it is or isn't. The fluff of the game just doesn't seem to interest me that much.

The cool thing about 40k is that you can fit tons and tons of mysteries just in the gaps, without really needing to bring everything back to Terra.

I was even thinking, the other day, about the possibility of Sera (from Gears of War) just being a lost planet somewhere in the Imperium, with some type of highly charged promethium deposits referred to by the locals as "Lightmass." And the locust are actually an Ordo Xenos project to train some extra badass Guardsmen.

I like to know what I'm getting into, but other than that I have no problem with any deviation as long as the setting stays recognizable. I would have no problem playing in a Dark Millenia of - say - female Space Marines, as long as they are still basically Space Marines.

In other words, I'm fine with minor deviations of the details, as long as the style remains the same.

Just to be contradictory, I also like to slightly de-grim (though not de-dark) my 40k. I like the setting pretty bleak, but not quite so totally hopeless. I like to think that Imperium could get its gak together, the Emperor could become the Starchild, the Eldar could stop being dicks. Maybe. If the right people were in the right place at the right time...

That's what RPGs are for, I guess. I wouldn't like to play in a setting that was a priori doomed.

Since it is a fictional universe and not a religion, I tend not to worry too much about canon, because you can generally explain it away some how. Also the universe has changed to varying degrees from edition to edition anyhow - sometimes dramatically - so you can't really expect things to stay the same.

I like to imagine Imperium like the good guys.
Space marines = Mediveal Knights who help everyone in trouble.
Imperial Guard = Solders ready to put their lives on the line for the sake of others.
Sisters of Battle = martyrs and holy sisters ready to protect us from the greatest of corruption and show us the way to salvation.
I also like to imagine Eldar and Tau being the good guys to and cooperating with the Imperium.

But that is just me, when explaining things to someone else I explain how they really are.

ElectricPaladin wrote:I like to know what I'm getting into, but other than that I have no problem with any deviation as long as the setting stays recognizable. I would have no problem playing in a Dark Millenia of - say - female Space Marines, as long as they are still basically Space Marines.

In other words, I'm fine with minor deviations of the details, as long as the style remains the same.

Just to be contradictory, I also like to slightly de-grim (though not de-dark) my 40k. I like the setting pretty bleak, but not quite so totally hopeless. I like to think that Imperium could get its gak together, the Emperor could become the Starchild, the Eldar could stop being dicks. Maybe. If the right people were in the right place at the right time...

That's what RPGs are for, I guess. I wouldn't like to play in a setting that was a priori doomed.

Exactly. An rpg that runs on canon (40k, LOTR, or anything else) is doomed to mediocrity, because all the cool stuff is already being done by the npcs. The pcs have to fit in at the edges, rather than being the central characters in their own story.

MHO.

Eh, my version of canon is closer to 3rd edition than 5th. The Imperium is an evil empire which is bad, but it's dying which is good, but when it dies all the innocent civilians who're just being bossed around will die which is bad. And there's more dark humor. It's hilariously horrible and grimdark.

LoneLictor wrote:Eh, my version of canon is closer to 3rd edition than 5th. The Imperium is an evil empire which is bad, but it's dying which is good, but when it dies all the innocent civilians who're just being bossed around will die which is bad. And there's more dark humor. It's hilariously horrible and grimdark.

One thing I have done with conflicts between the different edition fluff, the stories, etc., is just to say that who knows what is true? The imperium is so full of lies and BS, that the Inquisition itself doesn't know the truth anymore. Is the Star Child the Emperor's ghost? A Tzeentchian plot? A stupid story brought on by smoking too many lho sticks? Who knows?

As to stuff like robots or no robots, squats or no squats, zoats or no zoats, etc.? Again, there is probably nobody who knows the whole truth. In some areas, the squats may have been wiped out, while in others, they may thrive. In some parts of the imperium, robots may be valued mechanical guards and sidekicks, while in others the priesthood may teach that they are vile simulacra.

Again, who really knows?

I like it canon

But if you want Chaos Grey Knights, fair enough, but just recognise, that the truth behind it is that there are no Chaos Grey Knights because none have fallen to Chaos in established fluff.

Brother Coa wrote:I like to imagine Imperium like the good guys.
Space marines = Mediveal Knights who help everyone in trouble.
Imperial Guard = Solders ready to put their lives on the line for the sake of others.
Sisters of Battle = martyrs and holy sisters ready to protect us from the greatest of corruption and show us the way to salvation.
I also like to imagine Eldar and Tau being the good guys to and cooperating with the Imperium.

But that is just me, when explaining things to someone else I explain how they really are.

Pretty much how i play it in my rpgs. Except the space marines are dicks, like how they are in the canon. And the Eldar are like they are in the fluff as well, as likely to help you as to kill you. Now the Tau are usually bad guys, especially if its set on the eastern (space has no east fool) front. But its mostly the human infiltrators causing havok. And the Tau arent bad, i guess i should say their usually the antagonist.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

Galdos wrote:I dont mind something small as long as it is small.

Examples I do. I like to claim that the Imperial Guard won Kronus druing Dark Crusade (and won in Winter) and I simply interpret everything thing said in DoW 2 to mean somehting slightly different (not as hard as you think) and that Space Marine occurs but it occurs long after the Chapter Master died with the 1st and 2nd Company Captains moving leadership positions around with Titus simply becoming the next in line.


Small stuff like that that doesnt really have an effect on the great scheme of things. (Well Space Marine does but thats my own personal story so whatever, and its going to happen EVENTUALLY, its not like the 3 guys are immortal and invincible)

Lol, THQ said that it takes place in an alternate realithy of 40k
OT: I dont mind aslong as it make sense.
Not the GK and deamons working together to defeat chaos marines

Ya I know that. I just meant that I simply consider it the same universe because "why not" I like adding to the story and this is great addition I felt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:I like to imagine Imperium like the good guys.
Space marines = Mediveal Knights who help everyone in trouble.
Imperial Guard = Solders ready to put their lives on the line for the sake of others.
Sisters of Battle = martyrs and holy sisters ready to protect us from the greatest of corruption and show us the way to salvation.
I also like to imagine Eldar and Tau being the good guys to and cooperating with the Imperium.

But that is just me, when explaining things to someone else I explain how they really are.

Exactly how I like to look at it.

Except the Tau.... they are okay and if necessary one can cooperate with them but nothing binding and lasting.
And the Eldar are dicks but I they are good enough that you can work with them without too much of an issue.

Zinderneuf wrote:Exactly. An rpg that runs on canon (40k, LOTR, or anything else) is doomed to mediocrity, because all the cool stuff is already being done by the npcs. The pcs have to fit in at the edges, rather than being the central characters in their own story.

MHO.

In 40K, 'fitting in at the edges' can mean saving a hive-world of 500,000,000,000 people (more people than there have ever been, in real life, in the entirety of human history). Possibly, in effect, saving the rest of the subsector of 15 inhabited planets.

The 40K 'edges' are bigger in scope than most any other setting I can think of.

I understand what your getting at OP. The way I see it is knowing everything about the current universe, who the Emperor is, who the four chaos Gods are, etc, dosn't ruin the whole mystery. I like the mystery of what you make out of it. My favorite part of 40k is taking the universe and making of it what you like. Its an entire galaxy, who could possibly know all of the ongoings in it? (save the emperor of course :p)
I enjoy all the individual creativity that other players make of it, Chaos Grey knights, Female space marines, Cute and cuddly chaos, or necrons that like to trade. It could all be possible, and taking the universe and making it your own is what 40k is all about

There's no point in liking it too Canon.

Every time a new codex is written or a new BL book released they retcon everything anyway

I like my setting a bit more oldschool, to be frank. Back when Marines had just stopped being recruited mass-murdering psychopaths from the scum of the universe, and started being intolerant xenocidal asshats, who also happened to be mass-murdering psychpaths..

Back when, when the SM would gun down IG units that were in their way to get to battle faster, and drive LR's over the top of anything that didn't dodge fast enough

Also when the game didn't ake itself so fething seriously, and Ward had yet to be hired

Arturius wrote:

Zinderneuf wrote:Exactly. An rpg that runs on canon (40k, LOTR, or anything else) is doomed to mediocrity, because all the cool stuff is already being done by the npcs. The pcs have to fit in at the edges, rather than being the central characters in their own story.

MHO.

In 40K, 'fitting in at the edges' can mean saving a hive-world of 500,000,000,000 people (more people than there have ever been, in real life, in the entirety of human history). Possibly, in effect, saving the rest of the subsector of 15 inhabited planets.

The 40K 'edges' are bigger in scope than most any other setting I can think of.

Granted, but however many zeroes you put behind it, its still just a hiveworld. They get wiped out every day and the imperium barely bats an eye. I like rpgs where the pcs are at the real center of the action. Still, its all up to you.

darkcloud92 wrote:I understand what your getting at OP. The way I see it is knowing everything about the current universe, who the Emperor is, who the four chaos Gods are, etc, dosn't ruin the whole mystery. I like the mystery of what you make out of it. My favorite part of 40k is taking the universe and making of it what you like. Its an entire galaxy, who could possibly know all of the ongoings in it? (save the emperor of course :p)
I enjoy all the individual creativity that other players make of it, Chaos Grey knights, Female space marines, Cute and cuddly chaos, or necrons that like to trade. It could all be possible, and taking the universe and making it your own is what 40k is all about

It's a question of perspective, in the end, and there is no right answer. Still, cute and cuddly chaos?

Love and Friendship for the Cuddle God!!!

I prefer things to adhere to established background...
I think it's a bit lazy otherwise.
There are hundreds of gaps inbetween the established fluff and just making stuff that really doesn't belong is just gonna seem silly...
I also think some of them just miss the point of some armies or factions...
40k is always gonna be mysterious because i honestly can't think of a time where GW has explained anything big and mysterious...
It's their 'thing'

I like to keep it quite strict. I mean a few DIY things is fine but theres a limit to what is acceptable I think.

Thatguy91 wrote:I like to keep it quite strict. I mean a few DIY things is fine but theres a limit to what is acceptable I think.

Doom on you! doom on you! Doom on you!!!!

On me you say? Maybe I should clarify a little

Too far for me is when you get this kinda stuff on the table top;

A serious Female marine army (sometimes this is fine but hey, if your playing a tournament or whatever. No sir.)

The typical MAH MAHREEN CHAPTER IS SO GREAT AND DEY ARE LIKE THE EMPERORZ AND THEY IS INVINCIBLE! YA!

Or any other huge fluff contradictions really, it kinda bugs me a little.

Zinderneuf wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Eh, my version of canon is closer to 3rd edition than 5th. The Imperium is an evil empire which is bad, but it's dying which is good, but when it dies all the innocent civilians who're just being bossed around will die which is bad. And there's more dark humor. It's hilariously horrible and grimdark.

One thing I have done with conflicts between the different edition fluff, the stories, etc., is just to say that who knows what is true? The imperium is so full of lies and BS, that the Inquisition itself doesn't know the truth anymore. Is the Star Child the Emperor's ghost? A Tzeentchian plot? A stupid story brought on by smoking too many lho sticks? Who knows?

As to stuff like robots or no robots, squats or no squats, zoats or no zoats, etc.? Again, there is probably nobody who knows the whole truth. In some areas, the squats may have been wiped out, while in others, they may thrive. In some parts of the imperium, robots may be valued mechanical guards and sidekicks, while in others the priesthood may teach that they are vile simulacra.

Again, who really knows?

I did like the way 3rd edition fluff was set out, with a lot more loose threads to follow, and a much wider sense of scale. The more recent editions have been too scientific, almost... the Imperium of these editions has some kind of functional central management, while the 3rd Edition Imperium felt more like the Holy Roman Empire - much more of an abstraction, a name on a map, rather than anything that you'd notice on the ground. I really enjoyed the fluff section written by Sejanus, the aid of Solar Macharius, describing the strange things they encountered, far from the Imperium's borders.

Otherwise, I personally prefer to see Terra and the Emperor as inviolate pieces of fluff - discounting any plotlines that involve them too heavily, or provide too many 'answers,' as rumor or Chaos obfuscation. Once Terra becomes a setting, and the Emperor, a MacGuffin (excepting the HH series, of course), it just gets way too off-kilter. You can't up the ante any more after that.

My general rule is, how much extra stuff would I have to explain to someone who knows the general GW-published fluff, if I'm introducing them into the club?
If I have to spend a couple hours going, "Well, the Emperor is actually a Nurgle Daemon implanted into the Throne by Sebastian Thor, who's a Tzeentchi agent, while Slaanesh is a work of fiction made by the Dark Eldar to get rid of the other Eldar, who they found too annoying... and by the way, Guardsman Marbo is a woman" then I'm doing it wrong.

I like my fluff rather grim, as Lonelictor said, it is a grim world in a grim universe

It is easy to ignore boundaries and do whatever you want without regard to any rules.

It is harder to keep within the boundaries and play within the rules and setting. Hence canon is preferred. There is still plenty of leeway even within the canon as there are areas that are vague or where the outcome is not given and therefore multiple viewpoints are possible.

Example: The Sensei. Nothing said since the Realms of Chaos other than an in-universe Inquisitor's point of view and personal opinion. He can be completely wrong as he is fallible and could easily have been deceived by Tzeentch. What is more ironic than getting the Imperium to hunt down the Emperor's own descendants?

In a setting that still has mysteries, that seemingly ageless swashbuckler space pirate...in league with Chaos? Or perhaps a descendant of the Emperor? Or perhaps something else entirely as his source of power and seeming immortality? The characters within an RPG may never find out. Or even if they did find out for that one character, that explanation might not hold true for some other character elsewhere. That particular pirate might not be a Sensei, but could another be?