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2013/10/18 17:31:08
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Oh, I don't think Raging Heroes is incompetent, quite the opposite. I just believe they are working at their own pace, because it is how they are doing things until now.
After all, they did things before the kickstarter. It's not like this company comes out from nothing (well...maybe in America, but here in Europa they're quite known for their distinctive models).
It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
After all, the trick is not really listening to all the ideas the backers/customers think they are so best for the company (for now, what I read is in fact more like a subjective point of view of "how I want MY models to be" but less caring about "how the style of the company can fit in those so that it can be really distinctive from others on the market"), but giving them the FEELING they are listening to them. ^^
Yeah, that's also communication. That's why I'd rather like a silent but honest one than a talkative but manipulative guy.
2013/10/18 20:57:42
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Sarouan wrote: It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
Nonsense. Communicating well is easy: each time you finish the sculpting on a kit, you post pictures of that kit. The only reason Raging Heroes is having trouble is because they're going out of their way to not communicate, and obfuscating when they could just be giving us the information we've been waiting for.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/10/18 21:27:50
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Sarouan wrote: It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
Nonsense. Communicating well is easy: each time you finish the sculpting on a kit, you post pictures of that kit. The only reason Raging Heroes is having trouble is because they're going out of their way to not communicate, and obfuscating when they could just be giving us the information we've been waiting for.
The flip token to that, of course, is that there is always going to be a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them.
Sarouan wrote: Oh, I don't think Raging Heroes is incompetent, quite the opposite. I just believe they are working at their own pace, because it is how they are doing things until now.
I have no issues with them working at their own pace. I don't think anyone wasn't expecting some delays with this KS.
Sarouan wrote: After all, they did things before the kickstarter. It's not like this company comes out from nothing (well...maybe in America, but here in Europa they're quite known for their distinctive models).
Though surely, the fact that they did so much work before the kickstarter means that, even working at their own pace, they can still meet their self imposed deadlines?
Sarouan wrote: It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
The problem with this is that saying nothing gives the impression that nothing is actually happening. This makes people impatient / frustrated and that comes out with more ease when it's not face to face communication. If they did put out regular updates then people would have more patience and be willing to wait if (when) there are delays. There's a number of examples of other KS projects posted throughout this thread where this is the case.
Sarouan wrote: After all, the trick is not really listening to all the ideas the backers/customers think they are so best for the company (for now, what I read is in fact more like a subjective point of view of "how I want MY models to be" but less caring about "how the style of the company can fit in those so that it can be really distinctive from others on the market"), but giving them the FEELING they are listening to them. ^^
That's a dangerous path to take though. You have to listen to your customers when they're talking about the product. Sure, a large part of it could be safely ignored, but if there's a vocal group of customers who aren't happy with the way something is being done or the way figure X has been sculpted then its something that does need listening to and at least a response being provided, even if the end result isn't a change from how things are.
Sarouan wrote: Yeah, that's also communication. That's why I'd rather like a silent but honest one than a talkative but manipulative guy.
That may work for you, but I can see most people being annoyed / impatient with this. Having worked in customer service for a number of years, I've seen just how people react to a lack of communication on basic matters. The number of people who complain when they've not had an update on why their £10 a month broadband connection is still broken is surprisingly high. Whilst £10 a month ADSL isn't quite the same as $250+ pledges for a KS project the same basic principal of communication is there. Tell people what's happening on a regular basis and they're happier. Keep them in the dark, treat them like mushrooms, and they get angry and vote with their wallets. Open and honest communication should be something that every company strives for, whether it's a small one man company or a multi-million pound international.
I'd go so far as to say that in cases such as this communication and backer goodwill are even more important. We already know that RH have at least two more KS projects planned, potentially more, along with talk of a board game and tabletop rules. If they're looking to expand TGG / Dark Elves / Nuns into a full fledged game rather than just 'counts as' figures then they should start building a community now rather than having any existing good will eroded by poor communication and thinly veiled insults.
Sarouan wrote: Oh, I don't think Raging Heroes is incompetent, quite the opposite. I just believe they are working at their own pace, because it is how they are doing things until now.
After all, they did things before the kickstarter. It's not like this company comes out from nothing (well...maybe in America, but here in Europa they're quite known for their distinctive models).
It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
After all, the trick is not really listening to all the ideas the backers/customers think they are so best for the company (for now, what I read is in fact more like a subjective point of view of "how I want MY models to be" but less caring about "how the style of the company can fit in those so that it can be really distinctive from others on the market"), but giving them the FEELING they are listening to them. ^^
Yeah, that's also communication. That's why I'd rather like a silent but honest one than a talkative but manipulative guy.
Yeah... I'm going to say you're just wrong here. I'll go so far as to say that "the trick is not really listening to all the ideas the backers/customers..." is a recipe for inevitable bankruptcy.
Now, I could put up well reasoned arguments underlying that idea or exploring the paramount importance of marketing in business, but I don't really need to, because they aren't doing what you are claiming they are doing.
Seriously, they aren't playing the Confident Artist, secure in their vision. Adam Poots is doing that. His updates have all the brash confidence of John Holmes walking up to a table of single women and asking if anyone ordered a foot-long. His vision is Grotesque. His vision is Beautiful. Most important, his vision is... his. You don't like his proportions, his monsters, his unsettling mixture of sexuality and violence? Then don't buy it, 'cause that isn't going to change. Yet because of this, because of precisely this confidence, he's not afraid to pull back the curtain and show us the process. But when people say "this doesn't live up to expectations"... he'll look at it honestly and say "we are going to make some adjustments... I personally felt that... it was fine, but I can see why some KD fans have some issues".
Raging Heroes seems more like a Flasher by contrast; they pull open the raincoat to show us the goods and then run. Seriously, it's been a full week since their magnum opus and they have gone full radio silence on Kickstarter, Facebook, email and forums. By the way, let's call attention to something: this thread was started by Raging Heroes! It's not so long ago that they saw fit to post and converse with their customers... until a few days into their campaign, when they left updating their own thread to the moderators to update. Where is their confidence? RH won't even let us see column headings.
Sarouan wrote: It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
Nonsense. Communicating well is easy: each time you finish the sculpting on a kit, you post pictures of that kit. The only reason Raging Heroes is having trouble is because they're going out of their way to not communicate, and obfuscating when they could just be giving us the information we've been waiting for.
The flip token to that, of course, is that there is always going to be a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them.
The problem with a hypothetical like that is it doesn't really say anything: might such people exist? Maybe, how about RH tries lots of communication and we see, hmmm? The biggest complaint isn't that they are missing weekly updates, but that they blow their own deadlines. That they say they want to drop their big update when they can respond to questions... and then disappear for a week.
No offense, but how exactly do you know there are "a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them"? Where are those people in the KD:M comments, complaining that Poots posting about every day in the comments just isn't enough?
To say nothing of how convenient it is to imagine you can't satisfy everyone... when you aren't trying.
Now, all of the above sounds a bit harsh, and maybe it is. But let us remember some wise words; “Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”
- Winston Churchill
No one here (as far as I know) is offering criticism that they think is destructive, they are not engaged in an act of sabotage. Everyone here is acting to try and get the best possible product and have the best relationship with a company that they see as having a great deal of promise. When people I like do things I think are self-destructive, I warn them and try to get them back on the right path, even if they don't like what I am saying.
When people I don't like do self-destructive things? I somehow manage to hold my tongue.
Yeah, that's also communication. That's why I'd rather like a silent but honest one than a talkative but manipulative guy.
They're so honest they'll tell you their deadlines for themselves, miss it totally and just pretend nothing happened. And then when you bug them about it, you're an over-entitled twitter brat
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
2013/10/21 06:40:01
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
No offense, but how exactly do you know there are "a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them"?
Seriously? You had me up until this point.
First, just to clarify, I'm not talking about you, Buzzsaw, nor anyone in specific who is still posting in this thread. (That I'm aware of.) Your points are all rational, well thought out, and with a few exceptions, I agree with what you want and why you think it should be provided. But anyone who has ever worked retail (or hell, customer service in any capacity) knows that there are people who just want to complain, no matter what. I guess the only real problem with my statement is that it's too specific. I should have just said there would always be a group of people who were never going to be happy, period.
Do I think this has been handled perfectly? Hell no. I'd like to see some communication, especially in regards to comments about the previous update. I'd like to see requests get answered, even if it's only telling people 'no,' and giving some kind of reason why they aren't going to make the boobs larger, make the boobs smaller, add spikes, remove spikes, or what have you.
By the same coin, though, I recognize that when communicating with the public, and trying to meet their demands, there is always going to come a point with a product line where you have to say enough is enough, and that people who aren't satisfied are just going to have to be disappointed. Because you cannot please everyone. Especially with a product line. Cannot be done. I'm a little surprised to see you scoff at such a notion, honestly. You seem to have a good head for numbers, and I would assume that there is always going to be a dissatisfied subset of your target client base. Or am I mistaken?
As to why there isn't any complainers in the KD:M kickstarter, I assume you mean Kingdom Death. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say that anyone who would be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' category for a Kingdom Death KS wouldn't have shown up in the first place, since they are probably a little too self-righteous to deign to put their money behind torture-porn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 06:41:02
As to why there isn't any complainers in the KD:M kickstarter, I assume you mean Kingdom Death. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say that anyone who would be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' category for a Kingdom Death KS wouldn't have shown up in the first place, since they are probably a little too self-righteous to deign to put their money behind torture-porn.
You couldn't be any more off base here. You really couldn't. The reason there aren't really "relentlessly insatiable complainers" in KD:M is because the updates Poots releases are everything Raging Heroes isn't: they're informative, they show progress through the process, they directly address any raised concerned from the backers, they're not even remotely rude or condescending, etc.....
And quite frankly, your casual dismissal of it as "torture porn" is insulting and ignorant, particularly in light of this KS containing an entire faction if "warriors" with their tits hanging out that employ child soldiers.
2013/10/21 14:33:48
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
cincydooley wrote: The reason there aren't really "relentlessly insatiable complainers" in KD:M is because the updates Poots releases are everything Raging Heroes isn't: they're informative, they show progress through the process, they directly address any raised concerned from the backers, they're not even remotely rude or condescending, etc.....
They're also not announced and then pushed back. That's a rather key difference as well and appears to be a lot of the angst around RH's updates; they say themselves they will do something and when they don't do what they said they would they blame their backers for being impatient... Also, every time I get the notice that KD:M has released an update I know I'm in for a treat, and to date I've not really seen an update that did not make me more excited for the project even if I didn't like every last thing that was shown. I'm not sure even RH's big update was an "ooo! yay!" moment, though that could be because of the "no really, this time we mean it!" dance on actually getting it out the door soured the experience.
I'm very glad I opted to wait for retail on this one. I'm sure the final product will be great and in the long-view that will trump any communications issues but if I had money tied up in it right now I'd be royally peeved.
2013/10/22 00:37:10
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
As to why there isn't any complainers in the KD:M kickstarter, I assume you mean Kingdom Death. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say that anyone who would be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' category for a Kingdom Death KS wouldn't have shown up in the first place, since they are probably a little too self-righteous to deign to put their money behind torture-porn.
You couldn't be any more off base here. You really couldn't. The reason there aren't really "relentlessly insatiable complainers" in KD:M is because the updates Poots releases are everything Raging Heroes isn't: they're informative, they show progress through the process, they directly address any raised concerned from the backers, they're not even remotely rude or condescending, etc.....
And quite frankly, your casual dismissal of it as "torture porn" is insulting and ignorant, particularly in light of this KS containing an entire faction if "warriors" with their tits hanging out that employ child soldiers.
It was a joke, brother. Sorry if you thought I was maligning the stuff you like. (That's why I put a laughy ork there, instead of just saying it. To indicate that it was a joke, and not a serious assertion. )
And for the record, I never said I thought Kingdom Death was nothing but torture porn. I said that the people who would have been likely to be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' group in a Kingdom Death kickstarter thought that. And I said it in jest. (Again: laughy ork! ) It was me trying to state that the people who would never have been satified with KDM no matter what they did are also the kind of people who wouldn't bother to give KDM a second look.
I never argued that Kingdom Death didn't have better communication. Or even a product with a broader appeal. (Two million dollars claims pretty strongly that they do.) But if anyone is trying to claim that there AREN'T people out there who looked at this Kickstarter, but didn't bid on it because they would never have been happy no matter what KD did, then that's ludicrous.
They're also not announced and then pushed back. That's a rather key difference as well and appears to be a lot of the angst around RH's updates; they say themselves they will do something and when they don't do what they said they would they blame their backers for being impatient... .
Just to add clarity: I'm not trying to assert that Raging Heroes is running things better than Kingdom Death. That would be silly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/22 00:51:32
No offense, but how exactly do you know there are "a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them"?
Seriously? You had me up until this point.
First, just to clarify, I'm not talking about you, Buzzsaw, nor anyone in specific who is still posting in this thread. (That I'm aware of.) Your points are all rational, well thought out, and with a few exceptions, I agree with what you want and why you think it should be provided. But anyone who has ever worked retail (or hell, customer service in any capacity) knows that there are people who just want to complain, no matter what. I guess the only real problem with my statement is that it's too specific. I should have just said there would always be a group of people who were never going to be happy, period.
Do I think this has been handled perfectly? Hell no. I'd like to see some communication, especially in regards to comments about the previous update. I'd like to see requests get answered, even if it's only telling people 'no,' and giving some kind of reason why they aren't going to make the boobs larger, make the boobs smaller, add spikes, remove spikes, or what have you.
By the same coin, though, I recognize that when communicating with the public, and trying to meet their demands, there is always going to come a point with a product line where you have to say enough is enough, and that people who aren't satisfied are just going to have to be disappointed. Because you cannot please everyone. Especially with a product line. Cannot be done. I'm a little surprised to see you scoff at such a notion, honestly. You seem to have a good head for numbers, and I would assume that there is always going to be a dissatisfied subset of your target client base. Or am I mistaken?
As to why there isn't any complainers in the KD:M kickstarter, I assume you mean Kingdom Death. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say that anyone who would be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' category for a Kingdom Death KS wouldn't have shown up in the first place, since they are probably a little too self-righteous to deign to put their money behind torture-porn.
Jim, the problem with quoting one sentence and then being shocked by it is that that idea I mention is completely explained by the surrounding sentences. Which, in the interest of repeating, I will now repeat for you;
Buzzsaw wrote: The problem with a hypothetical like that is it doesn't really say anything: might such people exist? Maybe, how about RH tries lots of communication and we see, hmmm? The biggest complaint isn't that they are missing weekly updates, but that they blow their own deadlines. That they say they want to drop their big update when they can respond to questions... and then disappear for a week.
No offense, but how exactly do you know there are "a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them"? Where are those people in the KD:M comments, complaining that Poots posting about every day in the comments just isn't enough?
To say nothing of how convenient it is to imagine you can't satisfy everyone... when you aren't trying.
The simple fact is that you're just making excuses right now Jim. You want to believe that Raging Heroes couldn't satisfy everyone, because "there are people who just want to complain, no matter what".
Ah, but if that is so, where are these people in the KD:M comments I ask? And your answer is... sex weirdos. Okaaaaay...
Oh, it was a "joke"... so the real reason KD:M is immune to your otherwise immutable law is... what?
As to why there isn't any complainers in the KD:M kickstarter, I assume you mean Kingdom Death. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say that anyone who would be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' category for a Kingdom Death KS wouldn't have shown up in the first place, since they are probably a little too self-righteous to deign to put their money behind torture-porn.
You couldn't be any more off base here. You really couldn't. The reason there aren't really "relentlessly insatiable complainers" in KD:M is because the updates Poots releases are everything Raging Heroes isn't: they're informative, they show progress through the process, they directly address any raised concerned from the backers, they're not even remotely rude or condescending, etc.....
And quite frankly, your casual dismissal of it as "torture porn" is insulting and ignorant, particularly in light of this KS containing an entire faction if "warriors" with their tits hanging out that employ child soldiers.
It was a joke, brother. Sorry if you thought I was maligning the stuff you like. (That's why I put a laughy ork there, instead of just saying it. To indicate that it was a joke, and not a serious assertion. )
And for the record, I never said I thought Kingdom Death was nothing but torture porn. I said that the people who would have been likely to be in the 'relentlessly insatiable complainer' group in a Kingdom Death kickstarter thought that. And I said it in jest. (Again: laughy ork! ) It was me trying to state that the people who would never have been satified with KDM no matter what they did are also the kind of people who wouldn't bother to give KDM a second look.
I never argued that Kingdom Death didn't have better communication. Or even a product with a broader appeal. (Two million dollars claims pretty strongly that they do.) But if anyone is trying to claim that there AREN'T people out there who looked at this Kickstarter, but didn't bid on it because they would never have been happy no matter what KD did, then that's ludicrous.
They're also not announced and then pushed back. That's a rather key difference as well and appears to be a lot of the angst around RH's updates; they say themselves they will do something and when they don't do what they said they would they blame their backers for being impatient... .
Just to add clarity: I'm not trying to assert that Raging Heroes is running things better than Kingdom Death. That would be silly.
So, just to be clear, "there are people who just want to complain, no matter what", these people are everywhere... except in KD:M because "the people who would never have been satified[sic] with KDM no matter what they did are also the kind of people who wouldn't bother to give KDM a second look."
Which, to translate that into something like English, is to say that KD:M is a niche product. But it's also "a product with a broader appeal" then TGG. Which, no offense, is why everything that you've said in the last two posts is just pointless.
Hey, you want to believe that a niche product like KD:M is able to avoid your otherwise immutable law of complainers, that's fine. But you don't seem to be even slightly interested in answering why TGG, which is an even more niche product, which is in every measurable way appealing to fewer people, which made much less money... why is it that TGG is afflicted with this unruly and fractious body of backers. Which, incidentally we should not is purely conjectural on your part: no one is pointing to any specific examples of "oh, it's that guy in the comments again hectoring RH...".
The simple truth is that the difference in attitudes derives not from the associated backers, but from the campaign creators. So if there is but a single sentence from this post that you ought to fixate on, it is the following;
The idea that you cannot please everyone is not an excuse to try to please no one.
I hold up KD:M because it is a sterling and undisputed (not even by Jim!) example of a campaign done right. But it isn't the only example; I could have held up Dreamforge's Isenkern campaign, Mantic's Dreadball or Dreadzone (perhaps not so much their first one...) or MYTH or others. Are any of these campaigns (even KD:M) perfect? No, but each stands head and shoulders above TGG in terms of the relationship between backers and creators.
Yet, if you were to tell us that the entire company had died in a freak bouillabaisse accident 10 days ago... there is nothing out there to contradict that.
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll go so far as to say that "the trick is not really listening to all the ideas the backers/customers..." is a recipe for inevitable bankruptcy.
Dunno. GW has been pretty successful at doing this for over 20 years now.
2013/10/22 22:34:38
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
Buzzsaw wrote: There is a phrase Jim "when you're in a hole, stop digging".
Who's in a hole? We're all friends here, at least to my knowledge.
I apologize for making a joke at the expense of KD:M. Apparently no one took it that way. I didn't HAVE a serious answer as to why no one complains in their Kickstarter comments. Since you are obviously following it closer than I, I was hoping you could provide a reasonable explanation. I only made the torture-porn remark since it seemed like caustic sarcasm is the go-to tone in this thread. (Or at least 80% it ) It wasn't supposed to be serious. I assume you aren't claiming that NO ONE is complaining in the KD:M comments because they're running a paragon-perfect campaign?
The idea that you cannot please everyone is not an excuse to try to please no one.
I agree. Have since the jump. This whole things stems from a point I made just to make conversation. (Here it is, just to clarify.)
Sarouan wrote: It is true that their communication is not at their best...but this isn't an easy thing and I must say many customers nowadays are very agressive (and very impatient). It's somewhat difficult to handle them while trying not to be seen as "the big bad company not caring for their backers". I know this very well from my work.
Nonsense. Communicating well is easy: each time you finish the sculpting on a kit, you post pictures of that kit. The only reason Raging Heroes is having trouble is because they're going out of their way to not communicate, and obfuscating when they could just be giving us the information we've been waiting for.
The flip token to that, of course, is that there is always going to be a group of people who are never going to be happy no matter how much the company communicates with them.
And I maintain that's an accurate statement. I didn't intend for anyone to interpret it to mean that Raging Heroes is doing a good job of communicating. (They aren't.) I didn't intend for anyone to take it to mean that they shouldn't want more communication. (That would be silly.)
But you can't please all the people all the time. All I was trying to say, seriously, all I was trying to say, is that there comes a point where you have to stop trying. (And I was NOT trying to say Raging Heroes is at that point. )
To put the KDM thing back on a reasonable footing, though, why do you think no one is relentlessly complaining about their product in the comments? Obviously there are people who don't want it, right? People who never would have bought it? Or would never have been interested? I've seen several comments (especially earlier in this thread) from people who had no intention of ever purchasing from Raging Heroes, who showed up here just to complain about how horribly sexist the models are. Does KDM not even have THOSE comments?
To put the KDM thing back on a reasonable footing, though, why do you think no one is relentlessly complaining about their product in the comments? Obviously there are people who don't want it, right? People who never would have bought it? Or would never have been interested? I've seen several comments (especially earlier in this thread) from people who had no intention of ever purchasing from Raging Heroes, who showed up here just to complain about how horribly sexist the models are. Does KDM not even have THOSE comments?
Oh KDM has it's non-supporters that show up in its threads, but they wander away when they realize there's not really anything to do. People who support KD have a clear idea of what they're getting and whatever your particular views on the aesthetic, it's hard to argue they're not working to a high standard for their customers. There's proof of this all over provided regularly by the creator. Most of their complaints delve into the realm of personal morality which then has to be deleted as OT and, generally, impolite. Read page 76 or so of the KD:M thread and realize there were many posts excised accusing Adam Poots of racism.
Those people will not be happy, because they hate the idea that KD:M exists. Poots doesn't care, because they aren't his customers. He provides his backers with what they want to see, that they gave him money a year in advance completely on faith that he will be a good steward. His updates are his way of showing the community that he is indeed that good steward, and if he continues through to completion in this manner, his next KS will be ridiculously huge.
RH, on the other hand, have allowed this doubt that they are also looking out for things creep into the community. They've been non-communicative, insular and seem to not appreciate the debt they owe their backers beyond the product. The product is what the money is for, sure, but the lack of interest and other concerns that come with traditional credit are not without value. When that gift is cast aside, it makes people less likely to offer it again. This in turn means everything else you do has to be done that much better just to generate the same goodwill that setting aside a couple hours every week or every other week to send out an update to those people.
That's not to say on the backend that anything is awry. Just that leaving a vacuum where people can invent stories rather than having information seems to be an odd strategy for going back to the same well two or three more times...
2013/10/23 02:00:30
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
To put the KDM thing back on a reasonable footing, though, why do you think no one is relentlessly complaining about their product in the comments? Obviously there are people who don't want it, right? People who never would have bought it? Or would never have been interested? I've seen several comments (especially earlier in this thread) from people who had no intention of ever purchasing from Raging Heroes, who showed up here just to complain about how horribly sexist the models are. Does KDM not even have THOSE comments?
Oh KDM has it's non-supporters that show up in its threads, but they wander away when they realize there's not really anything to do. People who support KD have a clear idea of what they're getting and whatever your particular views on the aesthetic, it's hard to argue they're not working to a high standard for their customers. There's proof of this all over provided regularly by the creator. Most of their complaints delve into the realm of personal morality which then has to be deleted as OT and, generally, impolite. Read page 76 or so of the KD:M thread and realize there were many posts excised accusing Adam Poots of racism.
Those people will not be happy, because they hate the idea that KD:M exists. Poots doesn't care, because they aren't his customers. He provides his backers with what they want to see, that they gave him money a year in advance completely on faith that he will be a good steward. His updates are his way of showing the community that he is indeed that good steward, and if he continues through to completion in this manner, his next KS will be ridiculously huge.
RH, on the other hand, have allowed this doubt that they are also looking out for things creep into the community. They've been non-communicative, insular and seem to not appreciate the debt they owe their backers beyond the product. The product is what the money is for, sure, but the lack of interest and other concerns that come with traditional credit are not without value. When that gift is cast aside, it makes people less likely to offer it again. This in turn means everything else you do has to be done that much better just to generate the same goodwill that setting aside a couple hours every week or every other week to send out an update to those people.
That's not to say on the backend that anything is awry. Just that leaving a vacuum where people can invent stories rather than having information seems to be an odd strategy for going back to the same well two or three more times...
That seems reasonable. I think there is room to quibble over just how much the company "owes" the backers, but that seems like a reasonable assessment.
To put the KDM thing back on a reasonable footing, though, why do you think no one is relentlessly complaining about their product in the comments? Obviously there are people who don't want it, right? People who never would have bought it? Or would never have been interested? I've seen several comments (especially earlier in this thread) from people who had no intention of ever purchasing from Raging Heroes, who showed up here just to complain about how horribly sexist the models are. Does KDM not even have THOSE comments?
Oh KDM has it's non-supporters that show up in its threads, but they wander away when they realize there's not really anything to do. People who support KD have a clear idea of what they're getting and whatever your particular views on the aesthetic, it's hard to argue they're not working to a high standard for their customers. There's proof of this all over provided regularly by the creator. Most of their complaints delve into the realm of personal morality which then has to be deleted as OT and, generally, impolite. Read page 76 or so of the KD:M thread and realize there were many posts excised accusing Adam Poots of racism.
Those people will not be happy, because they hate the idea that KD:M exists. Poots doesn't care, because they aren't his customers. He provides his backers with what they want to see, that they gave him money a year in advance completely on faith that he will be a good steward. His updates are his way of showing the community that he is indeed that good steward, and if he continues through to completion in this manner, his next KS will be ridiculously huge.
RH, on the other hand, have allowed this doubt that they are also looking out for things creep into the community. They've been non-communicative, insular and seem to not appreciate the debt they owe their backers beyond the product. The product is what the money is for, sure, but the lack of interest and other concerns that come with traditional credit are not without value. When that gift is cast aside, it makes people less likely to offer it again. This in turn means everything else you do has to be done that much better just to generate the same goodwill that setting aside a couple hours every week or every other week to send out an update to those people.
That's not to say on the backend that anything is awry. Just that leaving a vacuum where people can invent stories rather than having information seems to be an odd strategy for going back to the same well two or three more times...
First, an excellent statement on what makes some campaigns flourish in the post-pledge period.
Second, was that the great nigredo eruption that you refer to? That really was a special thing.
As for Jim's... let's call them concerns, it seems that there are 4 things on which everyone now seems to agree;
1) That there are campaigns (KD:M is one, DFG is another, MYTH and no doubt others) that don't have any appreciable degree of vocal dissatisfaction among the backers,
2) One of the defining characteristics of those campaigns is the significant conversation and communication between the creators and the backer community,
3) Raging Heroes's TGG campaign can be fairly described as not featuring significant conversation and communication between the creators and the backer community,
4) Raging Heroes has a non-trivial amount of vocal dissatisfaction among the backers.
While I would not say that we can draw conclusions to a scientific degree of accuracy, a general idea may be drawn from the above points. So let's consider that matter foreclosed for the time being.
The real question it seems is... what in the world is RH thinking here? I don't mean that flippantly, but sincerely: they will never have such a chance to turn so many people into long term fans, and with such a small cost!
The benefits of having a good relationship with your backers may be difficult to quantify, but anecdotal they certainly seem hard to dismiss. I know that for my part, the post-pledge actions on the part of companies like KD, DFG, MERCS (the guys behind MYTH) and JunkRobot (I basically pledged their second campaign almost entirely on the strength of their personality) have converted me from a backer to a fan. Granted, a delivery of shockingly bad goods isn't something that would be overlooked... but that's a bit of a given. Each of those have had their ups and downs after the campaigns ended, but the relationship endured.
Contrariwise, the Sedition Wars campaign is a fine example of how the post-pledge period can go wrong. So very, very wrong...
As for Jim's... let's call them concerns, it seems that there are 4 things on which everyone now seems to agree;
1) That there are campaigns (KD:M is one, DFG is another, MYTH and no doubt others) that don't have any appreciable degree of vocal dissatisfaction among the backers,
2) One of the defining characteristics of those campaigns is the significant conversation and communication between the creators and the backer community,
3) Raging Heroes's TGG campaign can be fairly described as not featuring significant conversation and communication between the creators and the backer community,
4) Raging Heroes has a non-trivial amount of vocal dissatisfaction among the backers.
While I would not say that we can draw conclusions to a scientific degree of accuracy, a general idea may be drawn from the above points. So let's consider that matter foreclosed for the time being.
Seems like a reasonable set of conclusions.
The real question it seems is... what in the world is RH thinking here? I don't mean that flippantly, but sincerely: they will never have such a chance to turn so many people into long term fans, and with such a small cost!
The benefits of having a good relationship with your backers may be difficult to quantify, but anecdotal they certainly seem hard to dismiss. I know that for my part, the post-pledge actions on the part of companies like KD, DFG, MERCS (the guys behind MYTH) and JunkRobot (I basically pledged their second campaign almost entirely on the strength of their personality) have converted me from a backer to a fan. Granted, a delivery of shockingly bad goods isn't something that would be overlooked... but that's a bit of a given. Each of those have had their ups and downs after the campaigns ended, but the relationship endured.
Contrariwise, the Sedition Wars campaign is a fine example of how the post-pledge period can go wrong. So very, very wrong...
I too would like some communication. As I've said many times before, this is the first Kickstarter I've seen that showed a product of high enough quality that I was willing to put the asked amount of money down on it. So this entire experience is still my baseline.
Well as of 12 days ago they were still collating names of people who'd pledged for one, either directly or as an addon. Though I'm not sure what's taking so long, given there's only 36 pledges at a level to attend the seminar and anyone who added Connnoisseur on top of another pledge had to contact them first, so RH should already have the details.
They do answer emails it seems, according to the comments section..
"Loud'n Raging says:
Hello Alan,
First, I want to apologise for taking so long to get back to you. We are normally much better at replying to emails quickly.
Regarding your question on the Snipers, it's a tough one to answer. At this point, I'd be inclined to say that they won't be in the First Wave, but things are always in a flux, so this is not set in stone.
You will be able to specify which minis you want with the Pledge Manager, which should be released in a few weeks, once we know what is in the First Wave.
At that time, we may be able to offer some sort of staggered shipping option for a lesser additional fee than the original 20$, but we're still sorting out the details for that to see if it's even feasible...
I'm sorry I can't be more definite about it :(
Regarding what's coming, we'll have a quick in-between update in a few days, and after that, I think we'll be able to show more Heroines.
I want to take this opportunity to thank you very much for supporting our TGG project!
If you have other questions, just let me know!
Best regards,
Mireille
Raging Heroes Team"
This silence is rather.. discomforting. But, if all goes well, pledge manager hopefully soon.
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Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2013/10/25 19:36:53
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!
You had me up until this point.
But anyone who has ever worked retail (or hell, customer service in any capacity) knows that there are people who just want to complain, no matter what. I guess the only real problem with my statement is that it's too specific. I should have just said there would always be a group of people who were never going to be happy, period.
) It wasn't supposed to be serious. I assume you aren't claiming that NO ONE is complaining in the 
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