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If a space marine hero has, for example, combi weapon, bolt pistol, and power sword, can they claim the bonus attack in close combat from having two single-handed weapons by saying they will use the sword and pistol in combat, or aren't they allowed to do this as they also have a two handed weapon in their wargear?

Let me leave This here and you can decide for yourself/ Talk with your gaming group about it.

DR I think you misread. The 2 handed weapon involved is not a special CC weapon - its just a combi weapon.

I got that rig, but its the same situation, since the rules only sort of cover someone with 3+ weapons.

The best piece of advice I have is something Yakface wrote:

Yakface wrote:The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

What are you talking about DR? He has a CC weapon and a pistol, he gets a bonus attack. Not sure how this can be disputed. Yakface is talking about having multiple special CC weapons.

Cone man none of those weapons he has are two handed weapons.

VoxDei, the Combi-weapon is a 2-handed weapon, as it is not specified to be a 1-handed CCW.
However, since the model in question has 1 SCCW (which he has to use) and 1 CCW (the pistol) he gets the +1 attack.

The bolter doesn't count in CC. The codex says they can take BP and chainsword for free, so its generally assumed that they just use the bolter on a sling and swing it back when they get into CC or something.

I agree, the notion of two handed weapon only applies to close combat weapons, some of which are nominated as two handed.

A two handed close combat weapon precludes the use of two single handed weapons.

As a side note the bolter isn't necessarily a two handed weapon, alot of the fluff pictures show it in one hand. A good example if the Grey Knight Storm Bolter, mounted on the arm

It may seem a bit silly but you can be toting a whacking great Lascannon and still, if you have a bolt pistol and a sword, make 2 CC attacks. I've not seen an army list that allows this tho'

Ok fair enough
Thanks for the replies, guys

A rifle butt is a 2h weapon. (BRB P.42)

So how do you decide what weapons he uses. the rules only kind of cover models with 3+ CCW's

I think the two handed rifle butt thing is a bit of an abstraction in that any unit not equipped with a specific CCW can still attack in CC as they find something to hit the other guy with.

I guess this is to make it clear that once they do have a specific CCW the other weapon isn't in use.

Which weapon he uses is decided when you nominate the attack.

Whether he uses the rifle butt or the pistol doesn't really matter, it is only when you have other special weapons that the choices are made, as per BRB 42

I see a lot of misinformation in this thread. First, from page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand get an extra +1 attack.

There is no requirement that the weapon be a close combat weapon to provide the bonus attack.

Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)

A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules.

Likewise, no requirement that the weapon be a close combat weapon. Matter of fact, the addition of "... any weapons that are specifically stated..." definitively includes ranged weapons. However at present, there is no single-handed ranged weapon that is not also a pistol. The only one that I ever recall was the Neural Shredder in Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters.

As for the bolter being two-handed, while the FAQ never defines it as such it would either be two-handed or some third type that is never covered by the rules.

Not sure that anything in particular that anyone has said could be classified as misinformation.

Again it is another example of the inconsistencies in the rule book.

While the bonus attack is linked to the requirement to have two single handed weapons, the later rule regarding using two single handed weapons does make the stipulation that they must be weapons they can use in close combat and later in the same rule "two normal close combat weapons."

The rules for pistols also say "counts as a close combat weapon"

Thing is at the end of the day as there are presently no single handed ranged weapons other than pistols the point is fairly irrelevant.

I wonder if the Aniums Speculium adds a close combat attack, given that it is on his head? Again irrelevant as he has nothing else to attack with.

Cone Man wrote:If a space marine hero has, for example, combi weapon, bolt pistol, and power sword, can they claim the bonus attack in close combat from having two single-handed weapons by saying they will use the sword and pistol in combat, or aren't they allowed to do this as they also have a two handed weapon in their wargear?

If this were the case, chaos marines wouldn't get an extra attack. The bolster means nothing in assault unless it was fired, then the unit may initiate an assault.

In short, the described character would get the bonus attack.

More misinformation. The section you see referring to never states that you only get the bonus attack in close combat.

Additionally, you've not explained what the FAQ means when it states "... any weapons that are specifically stated..." when they've already covered close combat weapons and pistols. They must be referring to ranged weapons because that's the only type of weapons left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT; Make that "The section you see referring to never states that you only get the bonus attack in close combat.when you're using a close combat weapon or a pistol."

All I have done is quoted the rule book and posed some questions so just get over yourself with the whole misinformation thing mate. There is doubt as to the rules as evidenced by the fellows above discussing it.

It actually does state that typically the way to get an extra attack in CC is with a close combat weapon and/or a pistol in each hand and as by your own admission no other ""weapons that specifically state" actually exist the premise that you need to single handed close combat weapons is quite valid.

Weapons that are specifically stated is probably an allowance for later special rules.

What will those weapons specifically state? My guess is that they will specifically state they are a single handed weapon that counts as a close combat weapon, just the same as a pistol is defined.

All of which is pretty much irrelevant to the OP as we have pointed out that if a unit has two single handed CCW then they get the bonus attack, firing the Bolter doesn't preclude that.
The only effect it has is as Solofalcon has said that once you fire the bolter your target for an assault is fixed. Pretty sure he didn't mean you have to fire the bolter to be able to assault, which could be how you might read the post.

Magpie wrote:All I have done is quoted the rule book...

You haven't quoted the rulebook once. Get over yourself and actually provide rules instead of passing off the same misinformation.

Magpie wrote:All of which is pretty much irrelevant to the OP as we have pointed out that if a unit has two single handed CCW then they get the bonus attack, firing the Bolter doesn't preclude that.

His question has nothing to do with firing the bolter.

He has three CCW.
One is 2-handed.
One is a one handed special weapon.
One is a pistol.

The rules are silent on how to resolve this combination. The best way to manage it is yakface's quote above.

Actually, the OPs stated dilemma has a combiweapon, pistol, and power sword. The combi is not a two handed ccw. Power weapon + pistol = extra attack in close combat. And I can't really think of a situation where a two handed weapon, like a relic blade, doesn't have a special rule related to it that not only makes it advantageous and obvious its being used, but also specifically States it negates the extra attack bonus.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Actually, the OPs stated dilemma has a combiweapon, pistol, and power sword. The combi is not a two handed ccw.

The Combi Weapon is used as a rifle butt, the BRB defines rifle butts as a 2H.

And the FAQ I quoted above makes it "not single-handed" anyway.

The space marine is definately able to get the +1 attack.

The same exact situation is in the unit entry for Imperial Guard Stormtrooper models. Their wargear includes a hot shot lasgun, a hot shot laspistol, and a close combat weapon. It is not even a debate when someone asks if they get the bonus in close combat. Am I missing something?

If I'm not, then look at it this way, Page 37 of the condensed rulebook (under assault phase-->number of attacks-->second bullet states "Engaged models with two singlehanded
weapons (typically a close combat weapon
and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack."

Note it does not say 'engaged models with only two singlehanded weapons', it just says models with two single handed weapons. So they could have four other ranged weapons. It doesn't matter. So long as their wargear states they have two singlehanded weapons, they get the +1 attack.

If I missed the point of the debate then that's my bad by the way.

Fortunately the paragraph on page 37 that talks about getting an extra attack for two single close combat weapons, then goes onto say that 'Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit'.

I do have a related question though. If my model is equipped with a bolter, a boltgun, and a power fist (or other special weapon); can I opt to use the bolter (which is designated as a 2-handed CCW, and not get the bonuses from the special weapon?

The same page states that if you have a special weapon, you must use it. If you have more than one special weapon, you choose between them.

Mannahnin wrote:The same page states that if you have a special weapon, you must use it. If you have more than one special weapon, you choose between them.

To be fair, P.37 does not mention special weapons at all.

Happyjew wrote:I do have a related question though. If my model is equipped with a bolter, a boltgun, and a power fist (or other special weapon); can I opt to use the bolter (which is designated as a 2-handed CCW, and not get the bonuses from the special weapon?

See what Yakface wrote above.

DR, the first part of my post dealt with page 37. The second part, which Mannahein was referring to, is from a different page. As always, context is everything.

Ah found it ! Page 35

Page 35 does not say anything about Special Close Combat Weapons either.

Mannahnin wrote:The same page states that if you have a special weapon, you must use it. If you have more than one special weapon, you choose between them.

All depends on how you define "equipped weapons." If you define it as "the model has it" then the model is forced to use it.

Most people who play any form of RPG will tend to define "equipped weapons" as the weapons the model actually has in hand at that point in time. By that definition the model could choose to have the bolter "equipped" and will then be using a two-handed close combat weapon in combat.

For what it's worth I play the former as I believe that is what is intended, but I'll let my opponent play the latter interpretation because I believe it a good enough interpretation that I couldn't be bothered to argue against it.

BRB page 35 wrote: All unengaged models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attack they have

(Emphasis mine)