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So, I was just going over my most recent battle report series, and I just realised something. All of those meltaguns that I was bringing all those games... they basically did nothing. Ever. I ripped off some weapons here, and caused some immobilized results there, but I did more damage with eviscerators than I did with meltaguns, despite spending way more points for much longer on the guns.

Sure, I may have been unusually unlucky with them (which I was), but I couldn't help but see bigger structural problems. S8, for example, really isn't all that great, especially for a 1-shot weapon. The +D6 was great, but I almost never got it. Vehicles either just backed up, or the unit with the meltaguns was killed or distracted in time to neutralize them before they got there. Even Ap1 isn't enough to guarantee a good result on the damage table. I've also seen it from the other side of the table. That single unit or two of fire dragons isn't THAT difficult to figure out how to handle before they get too close to the juicy stuff.

There was, of course, one huge exception to this, and that was when I used al'rahem to outflank right friggin' next to stuff and then fire twin-linked melta at point blank range. In this role, with special surprise deployment, I could counteract my opponent's ability to react to them before they were in range, and were able to pretty reliably get that +D6. Plus, I was also able to take up to 4 of them, and make them twin-linked.

I've been a big fan of melta for awhile now, but looking at some empirical data leaves me questioning. I can certainly remember a couple of times when melta did its job, and did it well, but a vast majority of the time, in most ways and configurations, they just did squat. Unless you've got a fancy way to put them on the board (like combat-squadding 10 combi-melta sternguard out of a drop pod), are meltaguns really just not all that worth taking?

I mean, I'm almost to the point where I see the lascannon's +1S and ability to start actually hitting stuff right away to be more of a benefit than Ap1, and a +D6 that feels like it never happens.

Where do you use them? Sticking them on veteran squads won't work, by the time they're close enough to use them they'll probably be dead.
The only troop choice that's feasible with meltaguns IMO is the blob. For 30 points you can have 3 twin-linked (vox casters are an awesome way of gaurenteeing twin-linked weapons) meltaguns, basically means you can handle Dreadnaughts and MCs, since they already keep away most infantry.
Other than that deep-striking kaskrins I have always found to be very effective. Cost effective or not is up for debate but having 2 BS4 Meltaguns arrive behind an enemy's rear armour is devestating.

Your typical list is foot-slogging, correct? Blob guard? Of course they wouldn't be effective in that sort of list. You have no ability to put the enemy in range to get the full benefit. No one is going to move their tanks into your blob unit.
You need some sort of mobility/deployment advantage to make full use of them. IE deep striking, fast vehicles, outflanking, scouting, etc.

Except lascannons are more expansive to buy, and they're heavy weapon. Meltaguns are more common in units such as blood angels assault squads and IG veterans. Lascannons just hit as much as a meltagun when we're talking about BS. The only except to the Lascannon vs meltagun is against the 3rd edition necron monolith, anything that denies the extra d6 for melta or the Avatar.

Really, its the dice that break or make the meltas, as other weapons. Your alternative option is either meltabombs or power fist/chain fist/thunder hammers (which only the chain fist can get 2d6).

As for me, since I play Blood Angels, I don't really have other options besides plasmaguns (can't assault if rapid-fired) and flamers (doesn't work against dreadnoughts/vehicles). Plus with 5th edition favoring mech armies, its the real reason why meltaguns are popular.

My particular experiences were with blobs, SWSs, and guard officer squads. While the data is in the context of foot guard, it seems to point to a bigger trend.

If you've got a squad with a bunch of meltas in it, it's going to be pretty easy to target just that squad and destroy it. Likewise, if the squad has lots of meltas in it, it's rather likely that that and another copy or two of it, will constitute most of that list's serious anti-tank. Eldar are likely to bring a couple of units of dragons, but the rest is likely going to be dumpy S6 stuff. Likewise guard will bring a few melta squads in a couple of vendettas, but when those are shut down, it's rather likely that the rest isn't going to be packing much S8+.

Meanwhile, on squads that don't have lots of melta, it's unlikely to get the concentration required to be sufficiently effective, once hitting, penning, rolling well on the damage table, and the occasional cover save are taken into account.

Being able to isolate, destroy, tarpit, distract, harass, out-maneuver, or in any other way neutralize meltaguns seems to me to be depressingly easy. Even trying to spam them everywhere didn't seem to work, but much more often saw most of the meltaguns shooting at targets that aren't designed to be melta'd, making for something that wound up being both inefficient AND ineffective at the same time.

All of which is why I'm starting to think that unless you KNOW that you can deliver several meltaguns into melta range (though outflanking or deepstriking or whatever), that they're just sort of not worth taking.

Myrrodin wrote:Except lascannons are more expansive to buy, and they're heavy weapon, hit as much as a meltagun when we're talking about BS.

Certainly they're usually like twice as expensive, but they also start shooting right away, and don't start with killing power handicap that can be exploited by your opponent.

It seems to me that taking a lascannon, sitting still to shoot it twice, and then just pretending like it's not there will provide more bang for buck than meltas in most games.

Myrrodin wrote:As for me, since I play Blood Angels, I don't really have other options

Sure, relatively speaking, melta still seem like a strong option, but I'm starting to question if they're even all that worth it on their own merits.

It's one of those things like krak grenades which I used to pay to upgrade my troops with until I realised that, however good they looked on paper, they just really never, ever got used, so were just dead weight most of the time.

It's because you don't use transports, Ailaros.

Meltaguns + transports = predictable, mobile bands of melta kill zone

Meltaguns on footsloggers is just hit or miss.

Welcome (finally) to 5th edition.

They're cheap. And 3 meltaguns in a blob aren't going to go anywhere anytime quickly.
Don't rely on them for your main Anti-Tank, though. They're more like an insurance, and expanding the threat of your blobs.


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Flavius Infernus wrote:It's because you don't use transports, Ailaros.

Meltaguns + transports = predictable, mobile bands of melta kill zone

Meltaguns on footsloggers is just hit or miss.

Welcome (finally) to 5th edition.

I've never seen how moving 6" then exposing AV 10 to the enemy is better than simply moving 6" and hugging cover, taking into account the cost of chimeras and the potential losses to an exposion.

Read the theory part of this army list blog post:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/05/imperial-guard-jargon/

A transport always moves 6" or 12"--unless it immobilizes in terrain. It's the consistency and predictability of vehicle movement, as opposed to the randomness of infantry in terrain, that makes it possible to create predictable kill zone bands around your transports.

gak that's actually really interesting

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's because you don't use transports, Ailaros.

Meltaguns + transports = predictable, mobile bands of melta kill zone

Transports only increase the melta range by 6" (or often less if you actually fire from the proper fire point on the model). That's still not a lot.

More importantly, transports do nothing about all the other stuff I was talking about. Your opponents can see a 3x melta vet squad in a chimera coming from a mile away and can to a lot (up to and including blowing up the transport and easily destroying the vets inside) well before they ever make it into useful range.

Flavius Infernus wrote: makes it possible to create predictable kill zone bands around your transports.

which is true about this as well. Transports may make it a little easier for you, but it does nothing to affect your opponent.

PREDICTABILITY.

I can't remember how long I've been saying this to you, Ailaros, but this is really the reason why meltaguns are disappointing you.

A transport always moves 6" and shoots.

An infantry unit, which is often hugging terrain for cover, moves 1-6", and there's no way to know until you move and no way to predict or set up your overlapping fire fields until *after* you move each unit.

It's factually incorrect to say that transports don't increase the range of infantry-carried weapons. They increase the range of infantry weapons by 0-5" when the infantry is moving in terrain. By taking the randomness out of movement, transports allow you to use your short range weapons to best effect.

Read Stelek's post.

I did read that post. As it wasn't written in reference to what I'm talking about, it unsurprisingly has little to say on the matter.

And I understand your point, but not how it relates to the subject at hand. Yes, being able to move a full 12" and still fire means that you move things closer faster than just moving 6" and shooting, but that doesn't change anything. I mean, I've already used the example of fire dragons in a serpent flying their 18" and disgorging a unit of only meltas, much less just mechvets.

The issue I'm dealing with isn't a question of if meltaguns are predictable, and how to improve the likelihood that they'll behave the same way every time. The issue is one of effectiveness, especially vis a vis an opponent who is capable of making intelligent choices in reaction to your movement and deployment.

melta guns are awesome, they actually KILL things. I would kill for an AP 1 weapon that virtually every unit in my army could take.

Chimeras with meltas in numbers can apply maneuver pressure in a way that infantry units can't. After moving to the center of the table without shooting (which takes one turn in a transport instead of 2-3 as it would on foot), you press the enemy against the table edge so that he can't escape your melta range. It's not a matter of opponents making an intelligent choice where there's no room to maneuver.

Fire dragons aren't a good analogy because you can only have 3 units in an army, and because they have to disembark to shoot. Chimera melta units should pretty much never disembark while the transport is still functioning.

So that puts your meltaguns into effective range in turns 2-3, just like a fancy deployment, except you don't need to be able to outlflank to do it. Just normal deployment plus predictable transport movement. If the opponent comes to you, then meltaguns are effective even sooner.

Meltaguns are designed to be used in close quarters. They're the OP shotgun of WH40k. They need to be used as such, meaning they need to be on units that can get close, and get close fast. Your example of outflanking your opponent then shooting the dickens out of him at point blank range is the exact way that melta weapons should be used. It isn't the only way, but it is a very good way to get Melta weapons in close without sacrificing some of the unit.

Exergy wrote:I would kill for an AP 1

The AP1 is, in theory nice. The meltagun still has to get in range, though, and still needs to hit, and still needs to pen, and and...

Flavius Infernus wrote:Chimeras with meltas in numbers can apply maneuver pressure in a way that infantry units can't. After moving to the center of the table without shooting (which takes one turn in a transport instead of 2-3 as it would on foot), you press the enemy against the table edge so that he can't escape your melta range. It's not a matter of opponents making an intelligent choice where there's no room to maneuver.

Firstly, foot list still do this (I have myself on more than one occasion), it just takes an extra turn, but that's not even the point here.

The main point is that maneuver is only ONE part of the game. As a person with a quote from The Prussian, I'd assume that you know that you don't win with maneuver alone. Chimeras are not invincible. The vets inside are not invincible. Mechvets with meltaguns are not good against all targets, meaning not only can your opponents present you with units that aren't all that useful to shoot melta against, but they can also attack you with units that are good against chimeras and veterans, but that said units aren't good against in return.

Even then, field position only does so much. In order to make sure that you have melta everywhere (so that there's no where to run), you have to dilute the melta that you have, making it less effective.

Plus, to say that your opponent has no mobility options isn't even true either. Your opponent gets to deploy in whatever way they want, and get at least a turn or two to move stuff in their back field to protect vulnerable units (much less shoot at the most offending units of yours). I mean, nobody is going to just drive a land raider straight into three vet squads with meltaguns here. It's a little strange to think that you, though your tactical genius, can literally make it so that your opponent has no options whatsoever.

I mean, the one case I can think of where this is somewhat true is with deepstrikers or outflankers. Precisely in those cases where you can attack without your opponent getting to defend first, they still seem useful, but if you're just running units straight up the field...

Just like every other gun in fact

Given that my orks have no melta beyond one random wierdboy power, no +d6 weapons vs armour, and no reliable guns above S 8, i'm not sure why you're complaining Our S8 guns have a pathetic range (though better than meltaguns), and are running on BS 2..

If foot melta doesn't work for you, don't take melta in your footblobs. I would love to give my ork mobs a BS 3 meltagun or two.

You are running a list that struggles in the current meta, and i respect you for it, as i'm basically doing the same with foot orks when i run them, but meltaguns are miles better than big shootas and rokkit launchas Just sayin'

Well speaking of Prussian generals, chimeras with meltas are textbook Moltke's defensive offense. You don't dilute by putting them everywhere. You put them where the enemy needs to go, forcing him to move into your killing fields.

Because of the way that the rules are written, vehicles interdict the movement of other vehicles in a way that infantry can't. A mechanized opponent can always roll away from or blow through your infantry screen, but an opposing mech force has to stand and shoot it out.

Chimeras actually allow for greater concentration of melta firepower than infantry, because of the predictable movement and small footprint of a chimera compared with an infantry unit. Infantry meltas are scattered and dispersed. But something moves up to my chimera wall or deepstrikes in my parking lot, and I can easily (and reliably) concentrate my chimeras in one turn and put 15 or 18 meltaguns on that one target.

Deepstriking terminator suicide squads with combi-melta and chainfist work pretty good. 100ish points for the unit. Use them to kill 200 point tanks, and maybe get lucky and survive to do some carnage with the fist next turn.

Other than deepstriking suicide squads, not too well. Obliterators are okay since they get multi-meltas, dreads too. Regular meltaguns only really work on raptors or in rhinos. A squad hoofing it around is never going to catch up to a vehicle.

They are mostly used as static defense against vehicle assaults or enemy deepstrikers.

I would expect that if you are running melta on foot, well, the opponent's tanks can move faster than your troops so they can stay away from you. That isn't a bad thing if you are forcing them to move in a way that you control. Just use this to your advantage.

Now imagine if you didn't have melta. Would they just charge right into you? Would they ignore your squads and focus on something else that is more tasty? I think this is the situation that you face.

On infantry, meltas can act as a way of interdicting vehicle movement. Blocking off places where your opponent would like to move/tank-schock through your unit.

Joey wrote:They're cheap. And 3 meltaguns in a blob aren't going to go anywhere anytime quickly.
Don't rely on them for your main Anti-Tank, though. They're more like an insurance, and expanding the threat of your blobs.


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Flavius Infernus wrote:It's because you don't use transports, Ailaros.

Meltaguns + transports = predictable, mobile bands of melta kill zone

Meltaguns on footsloggers is just hit or miss.

Welcome (finally) to 5th edition.

I've never seen how moving 6" then exposing AV 10 to the enemy is better than simply moving 6" and hugging cover, taking into account the cost of chimeras and the potential losses to an exposion.

12" move 2" from disembark=20"+ base size threat radius for melta guns. On one hand the squad advancing like that is doomed. On the other hand it can be used as very effective bait.

Usually I find most players try to get into IG's face as soon as possible, so people staying out of melta range usually isn't an issue.

I feel your pain, I've been noticing it with my blobs too. Meltas work great with my stormtroopers, but when my blobs take them, they're very hit and miss (literally and figuratively) My problem being that they feel useless, but when I drop them, I immediately regret it. Its one of those instances where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. They're good weapons, I think it just relies more on what they're on then other weapons do.

My problems I'm seeing with them is that most of the stuff that I would want to shoot a melta at, I don't want my blob shooting at. Mixing 3 one shot anti tank weapons with a blob that puts out 72 anti infantry shots a turn seems to be wasting one or the other unless you're unloading into heavy infantry at close range. The exception being unloading 3 melta into a transport, blowing it, and then charging the survivors, but this isn't as common as I wish it was.

I'm tempted to just take plasma or GL instead, so they at least have a larger threat radius, but I think I may just need to be more creative with my deployment. In situations where the blobs had increased mobility, they were absolute monsters, and took over half my opponent's army to kill. But trying to run them across the board like they're a bunch of orks has always ended up in them doing jack squat. They just back the tanks up and avoid the meltas like the plague.

I've considered piling my CCS and PCS's into Chimeras and spamming meltas with them, so they can close the distance and knock out heavy armor threats, but I don't think this is a good use of my command units. Instead, I think the best option might be to just take as much varied anti tank as possible. Instead of relying on only meltas, running lascannons with them as well (I think you suggested this actually) using vendettas or outflanking sentinels, deepstriking stormtroopers, Manticores, Medusas, etc. Make it where he may kill one form of antitank, but he's still got multiple other ones to worry about. Trying to rely on just one form of killing something is bound to end badly, which is why we have redundancy.

TL;DR: I'll be keeping them in my blobs, just because they're good insurance, but I'm always going to make sure I've got at least 2 different ways to kill armor at range. I don't think I'll ever rely on just melta to deal with armor.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Chimeras actually allow for greater concentration of melta firepower than infantry

Sure, a little bit. I mean, this is what you're really spending the points for, more than anything else on a chimera. Still, it's only a little bit, and it's still on a platform that's plenty destroyable, and your opponent will still see it coming.

Wildstorm wrote:Now imagine if you didn't have melta. Would they just charge right into you? Would they ignore your squads and focus on something else that is more tasty? I think this is the situation that you face.

Mannahnin wrote:On infantry, meltas can act as a way of interdicting vehicle movement. Blocking off places where your opponent would like to move/tank-schock through your unit.

So, it does this too, I suppose. This seems to be sort of an "on paper" thing, though. With the exception of a few particularly enterprising land raiders, my opponents are always keen to keep their vehicles out of 12" as much as possible, melta or not. I can think of only once in my entire playing career where someone just charged a non-LR-transport into the thick of my stuff.

Would it be more likely without melta? I'm having a hard time seeing it, actually. There are a lot of reasons to keep fragile transports with their fragile-er cargo away from scary stuff than just meltaguns. Conversely, the list of things that I really wish I had meltaguns for in non-deepstrike or non-outflanking squads seems pretty small, and getting smaller. Why chase after stuff with troops-choice meltaguns, transported or otherwise, when you can have other stuff like lascannons or deepstriking melta handle them for your troops choices themselves?

schadenfreude wrote:12" move 2" from disembark=20"+ base size threat radius for melta guns.

Yeah, but are you really voluntarily disembarking all that often? It's a death sentence for guard units, and for a whole lot of other units in most armies as well. You'd better do enough damage with those couple of meltaguns, because an ass-facing transport and a few guys out of cover aren't surviving the retaliation long.

schadenfreude wrote:Usually I find most players try to get into IG's face as soon as possible, so people staying out of melta range usually isn't an issue.

You know, this is actually really telling.

You have melta, which only works at close range, and your opponents don't fear getting close to you anyways most of the time? If meltaguns were really all that effective, wouldn't most of your opponents stay away from you (to keep out of melta range), rather than just charging in anyways?

It seems impotence of the weapon is failing to inspire fear, and that the lack of fear is a sign of the impotence of the weapon.

MrMoustaffa wrote:they're good insurance

... and I usually like insurance with my units. I've been noticing, though, that they insure against stuff that practically never happens. I'm starting to feel like meltaguns are more like sasquatch repellant than like bug spray.

Versatility drags down efficiency. Those meltaguns that are doing nothing are taking up points from something that could have been doing something. I guess I'm just starting to see melta as more and more dead weight than savvy policy.

Dunno about IG, but in Marine codices, they're more than alright. One, they're more likely to hit. Two, marines are more survivable so even exposed when disembarked, they can do well. This is specially true to BA Assault squads: they have the ability to be near the opponent fast enough (transports, jump packs, or DS), and when they blow up the tank (or fail to blow up the tank), they're gonna charge anyway.

Perhaps it's a symptom of the lists you play with and against combined with your particular play style. But that said I am a strong advocate for including some if you can. It's a deterrent in it's own right and gives some flexibility over just lascannons. You can move and shoot and can keep certain threats on their toes.

As an example a dreadnaught coming out of a drop pod right next to an IG blob may survive 3 lascannons. But throw 3 meltas into the mix as well and the situation becomes less favorable for the dread. People may avoid dropping next to them altogether and aim at a different target. At the very least it fulfills a psychological role and forces your opponent to make a tougher choice.

Mechanized IG can field tons of cheap sacrificial melta which when it has done it's job leaves heavy flamers in their opponents face. It's pretty effective. Getting them into position isn't all that hard either. Chimeras and Vendettas give you greater mobility over footslogging, as well as a protective screening if you get downed early.

Yes, BS4 helps meltaguns greatly, which is where they start to shine. However if you are able to twin-link those meltaguns in your blob they are just as good as a BS4 (possibly better?) at hitting. I agree though, I have had some crappy luck against armor with meltaguns, but at the end of the day that is honestly just up to luck which is what dice rolling happens to be about. Granted we are fortunately able to alter our chances of having good luck by giving meltaguns to either BS4 or TL them. As stated before that AP1 comes in real handy when you do get close which also augments your chances of doing some real damage. Then you have to consider your alternatives, sure you can take more lascannons, but where will you get the points? I don't know how many meltas you currently run, but maybe dropping them all would give you an extra lascannon squad. That's the nice thing about meltas, they are dirt cheap and compared to the alternative special weapons (barring flamers) far better in blobs at handling most things.
And I think that part of it is psychological. It just depends on the opponent and whether or not he is willing to risk losing a transport by getting close to you. I think this is even better when you decide to plop down on an objective that they need.

Are they my first line of anti-tank? No. But they can come in handy especially when you are running them with your HQ behind them shouting orders. It just depends on the situation. They aren't too terrible at throwing unsavable wounds on MCs and multi-wound units either, and they are assault weapons to boot. Not a bad deal for what they cost imho.

I find meltas work for me. Putting them on fast platforms helps- tranports for a 12+disembark shot, fast vehicles like speeders, bikes, pods etc. The change from 33% to 50% to destroy a vehicle on a pen is nice, and combined with the extra pen dice can make the opponent think twice about walking into them.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Yes, BS4 helps meltaguns greatly, which is where they start to shine. However if you are able to twin-link those meltaguns in your blob they are just as good as a BS4 (possibly better?) at hitting.

Aaand Vulkan makes BS4 melta twin-linked. Yay C:SM!

From my limited experience, melta IG is not as effective as the rarely used Devil Dogs.

For less points than the vet squad + transport, or the platoon command with transport you can get a fast tank with better armor, and a 24" range blast melta. You can even pick up another multimelta on the hull for some extra killing power.

I'd go lascannons on the infantry for the early threat, then combined fire of lascannons + meltas after turn 1. Add in a few small squads of melta storm troopers, and you've got it pretty well covered.

-Matt