Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Having bought and painted (then forgotten for a year) the model is there anyway to play him well in say a 3k game?

Yeah. You spend 500 points on him, and run him up a flank.
He's actually a fairly small model for his stat line, making him a lot easier to hid behind buildings then a lot of the newer monsters.

If you are going to run him, bring at least 1 Abom to draw off some of the warmachine fire.

-Matt

Just beware of massed poison (like most monsters should). S'how I lost mine :(

I've ran him with an A-bomb and a Furnace, and was delighted. No cannons in the enemy line, but plenty of Witch Elves. The 'Lord is fast enough and small enough to only fight those battles he wants to, and even if all he does is jump from one building to another casting Plague, the Curse, or both, that's 500pts your opponent isn't getting.

He is alot of points for something that can not be your general

Why not Johnny?

Him not being general is an advantage.
He's not that tough to kill, and I wouldn't want to lose the generals leadership and give up +100 vp for the loss of him.
As it stands, if they are gunning for the vermin lord, then he his pulling fire away from the general.

Furnace + Vermin Lord + Abom is awesome. You've over-saturated the cannons.

-Matt

DakkaOrk007 wrote:Why not Johnny?

Cause his rules specifically say so.

Cool, a bomb vermin lord and furnace it is thanks guys

I just looked at him again cuz I know his stats are good. But I forgot he's FIVE HUNDRED points. That is a crazy amount for a non-general.

He isn't vastly different than a Bloodthirster. Yeah, some of his stats are less, but WS 8 or 10 isn't going to matter and such. Attacks do and the fact he has no armor. But he's also a lvl 4 caster.

But my opinion is I think it's best to have your Wizards as Wizards and your fighter Lords and fighters. Cuz you're either going to be stuck in melee or casting, it's often hard to do both. So in that regards, he reminds me of a Daemon Prince who you purchased spell levels for--which IMHO is a bad idea.

If he was lvl 0 and 300-350 pts he'd be solid. As it is, I'd say he's kind of risky.

Ok, take a daemon prince.
Add +1 S, +1W, +3 Init, and a much better lore. Then add no armor saves and D3 wounds per hit.
The lore options are really good for the vermin lord.
13 spells, and only 1 magic missile. That gives you 12 spells you can cast while in combat, and only 1 spell that is "wasted". Simply swap warp lightning for the 13th spell if you're worried about it.

Vermin Lord is a pretty good buy, but has the same problem all monsters have; few ways to survive concentrated cannon fire. At least with skaven you can show up with the storm banner and target saturations with other monsters and unique choices.

He does have something none of the other greater daemons have, a weapon that does multiple wounds.


-Matt

Balesword does D6 for 75 on a Greater Unclean One. Which would make him cost 525. And while most of his base stats are less, W10 is quite a bit more.

Vermin Lord still only gets 4 spells. He can just roll from a potential 13. It specifically says rolling on their tables and that you can substitute the dreaded thirteenth.

I can't see it being a "good buy." A simple test would be to fight a non-Vermin Lord Skaven army of the same point value. I'm guessing the VL army would get smushed because of all those points tied in one unit.

DukeRustfield wrote:Balesword does D6 for 75 on a Greater Unclean One. Which would make him cost 525. And while most of his base stats are less, W10 is quite a bit more.

Vermin Lord still only gets 4 spells. He can just roll from a potential 13. It specifically says rolling on their tables and that you can substitute the dreaded thirteenth.

I can't see it being a "good buy." A simple test would be to fight a non-Vermin Lord Skaven army of the same point value. I'm guessing the VL army would get smushed because of all those points tied in one unit.

I've run both with and without the lord, and it's different armies.
The vemin lord is a force multiplier with the abomb(s) and furnace. It's a non-shooty skaven.
Yeah, the vermin lord "Only" gets 4 spells. But of his 13 possible, only a single spell cannot be cast if he is in combat.
Cloud of Corruption is game winning on a highly mobile model like the Vermin Lord.

Here's the 2400 list I ran to try it out.
Vermin Lord.
Warlord, heavy armor, charmed shield, dragonbane gem
Plague Furnace + Plague Priest, plague censor, opal amulet, scrying stone, Ironcurse icon, level 1
41 Storm Vermin, Storm Banner, full command (6,7 or 10 wide depending on opponent).
60 slaves
3x20 slaves
52 Plague Monks, standard, musician, Razor Banner (pushing the furnace)
2 Aboms

Abombs, Furnace and Vermin Lord powered up a flank. Slaves muddied up the middle. Storm vermin provided shooting protection, and performed surprisingly well in combat.
Ran the list in a 'restricted' format league. Took the must broken things I could take to try and show the league judges that the restrictions were not doing what was intended.
Swept whole units at a time off the table.

-Matt

Where did the warlord go?

Going to guess he went in with the Storm Vermin.

I ran my vermin lord for over a year at the end of 7th, but 8th saw me run him ~3 times and then retire him. It wasn't more accurate artillery that was killing him, and 8th meant fewer small arms overall, which was probably the second easiest way to have him die in 7th. What changed was the reform-after-combat, making it harder to keep my VL out of combats he didn't want to be in.* Because even with the addition of t-stomp, I found Vermy kept losing combats and getting broken and run down due to CR. Like demon princes, vermin lords continue to amaze me with how impotent they are at actually fighting. Or in other words: my kingdom for some rerolls!

*This because I ran him all PLAGUE all the time, with the intent of using his maneuverability to get templates, withers and clouds into play where needed. (Much as Matt infers he does as well.) Unfortunately my list hadn't quite changed to account for free reforms at the time - as in, you can't just rush in and assassinate and expect the VL swooping along the enemy's flank is safe from reprisal ... Not sure that I would have that problem now, don't really run things that are under 30 models

At this point, I still have little desire to bring the VL back, as my grey seer is far better at magic than he is, and I've just spent all my toy points on bringing back the fellblade

What really gets me though is if you look at the rules for the Exalted Vermin Lord from FW. I mean seriously, look at them! 275 more points buys you an amazing monster, I mean astoundingly better than the standard VL! It's managed to surpass the 500 point version in every possible way, with the exception of still only having a 5+ ward save. Really mindblowing, and I would much rather the 500 were a cut down of the 775, then the sorry shadow that it is. (I understand why the VL is costed as it is - take monster, add ward, add doomglaive, add four levels of magic - but time and again I've felt like it's around 100 points too much, for how it constricts your general choices at the very least.)

- Salvage

What do you like about the Exalted version versus the regular one? That he's a true-blooded Unbreakable/Unstable Daemon, or his shooting attack, or what? He basically seems like a bigger version in all respects otherwise.

He can be your General also

Yeah, I didn't see him as being exceptionally better. T7 and W7 is really nice. But 775 points might as well be a "million bajillion" points. It's kind of hard to grasp.

ASF gives you re-rolls to hit, meaning instead of 3.3 hits on average, the Greater Version gets 6.2 hits. Offensive power before T-Stomp is practically doubled, before factoring in that it's +1 Strength (so more likely to wound T5-buffed units). I also do not have the Skaven book on me, but does the Verminlord count as Loremaster for both Lores, or merely take four spells?

Meanwhile, the combination of T7 and W7 gives vastly increased durability against the riff-raff. S4 now needs 6's to wound (heck, S5 also needs 6's to wound), and W7 means that now instead of 20 Handgunners causing 2-4 wounds a turn (when hitting on 4's, anyways), they cause 0-2 on average, combined with the extra two wounds slapped onto the Greater Verminlord. Add in that he's a Large-Target LD9 General option (and so any unit with at least one rank within 18" is Leadership 10), and you really do have to wonder why they're giving so much for so few additional points.

He's scroll of binding, so I don't think general is an option for him, but I could be wrong.

He is a character

You can take the exalted lord Either as a scroll of binding in a SoM game, or as a character in a skaven army in a regular game.

InnerLight wrote:You can take the exalted lord Either as a scroll of binding in a SoM game, or as a character in a skaven army in a regular game.

Nope, Scroll of Binding only.

Both versions of the PDF:

"The Skaven Exalted Verminlord may be used as a monster
controlled through a Storm of Magic Binding Scroll."

Compare to the Brood Horror:

"The Skaven Brood Horror may be used as a monster
controlled through a Storm of Magic Binding Scroll, or
taken as a mount for a Skaven Warlord for +195 points."

Nowhere in the EVL's rules is it allowed as a Lord or Hero choice for a Skaven Army.

Except it is typed under character

Johnny-Crass wrote:Except it is typed under character

Truthsayer is a character too. Can I take him in normal games as a hero choice?
No.

-Matt

Maybe what is throwing me for a loop is how army specific he is. Oh well back to the Grey Seer

Johnny-Crass wrote:Maybe what is throwing me for a loop is how army specific he is. Oh well back to the Grey Seer

Probably. Character is a Troop type(not a unit entry type, which would be Lord or Hero) and means absolutely nothing in an entry beyond telling you that it's one and thus follows the rules in the BRB for Characters.