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ive read my grey knight codex over and over and had many heated discussions on the topic of paladins and their use of heavy weapons.
my local GW first stated that anything a paladin carries will automatically become a heavy option if available as they always take that option in terminator armor, now they have changed their mind on the topic, so im left dazed and confused on the matter and being only in the hobby for a few months one can see how i might be this way and why it would be best for me too get to the bottom of this ruling ASAP.

So if anyone can shed some light on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Ask your local GW red shirt to show you the rule in question. If he can't it's possible he's remembering something from a different codex. Unfortuantely that's all the advice I can give to you atm.

Check out page 58 of the Codex, models in terminator Armour always fire the Psycannon in the heavy mode, i.e. the can't use the Assault 2, it is always fired Heavy 4 Rending

I think he just misinterpreted the rule Magpie said, Terminators never count as moving for firing heavy weapons (and therefore can fire in heavy mode) but do not actually have the heavy variant of the weapon, so an incinerator does not become a heavy incinerator.

Moderas wrote:I think he just misinterpreted the rule Magpie said, Terminators never count as moving for firing heavy weapons (and therefore can fire in heavy mode) but do not actually have the heavy variant of the weapon, so an incinerator does not become a heavy incinerator.

This. Models in terminator armour are relentless and so can always shoot heavy weapons even if they moved.

Magpie wrote:Check out page 58 of the Codex, models in terminator Armour always fire the Psycannon in the heavy mode, i.e. the can't use the Assault 2, it is always fired Heavy 4 Rending

Does this mean Gray Knight Terminators are not allowed to assault after firing their Psycannons, since they are not allowed to fire them as assault weapons? I don't think that Relentless gives them the ability to Assault after firing a Heavy Weapon.

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I don't think that Relentless gives them the ability to Assault after firing a Heavy Weapon.

Actually that's exactly what relentless allows you to do (along with firing as if stationary)

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I don't think that Relentless gives them the ability to Assault after firing a Heavy Weapon.

Actually that's exactly what relentless allows you to do (along with firing as if stationary)

And, it does the same (both count as stationary and assault afterward) with rapid fire weapons.

Relentless essentially allows you to ignore all firing restrictions related to being a Heavy or Rapid Fire weapon.

Just don't attach an IC who isn't Relentless and you're golden. RF no assault is per model, Heavy is for the unit.

Except that if the models who fired heavy weapons are relentless they get to ignore the no assault, and if the IC did not fire the unit may still assault.

DeathReaper wrote:Except that if the models who fired heavy weapons are relentless they get to ignore the no assault, and if the IC did not fire the unit may still assault.

Nope, 'fraid not.

Have a look at the last sentences of the Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapon entries on pages 28 and 29.

Rapid Fire prohibits models that fired RF weapons from assaulting that turn. So if a unit has some models with RF weapons and Relentless in it, that over-rides this restriction, and everything's gravy.

However, the Heavy entry prohibits units that fire Heavy weapons from assaulting. So in the example given, the Terminators are specifically exempt from the 'no asault' restriction... but any models in the unit that don't have Relentless are not. Whether or not they themselves fire a heavy weapon makes no difference. The unit fired heavy weapons, not all models in the unit have a rule that over-rides the restriction on the unit assaulting after firing heavy weapons... and so the unit can not assault.


Whether or not that's just a silly loophole created by GW's typical loose rules-writing, or a deliberate balancer to counteract people putting IC's into Relentless units with heavy weapons is anyone's guess.

insaniak wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Except that if the models who fired heavy weapons are relentless they get to ignore the no assault, and if the IC did not fire the unit may still assault.

Nope, 'fraid not.

Have a look at the last sentences of the Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapon entries on pages 28 and 29.

Rapid Fire prohibits models that fired RF weapons from assaulting that turn. So if a unit has some models with RF weapons and Relentless in it, that over-rides this restriction, and everything's gravy.

However, the Heavy entry prohibits units that fire Heavy weapons from assaulting. So in the example given, the Terminators are specifically exempt from the 'no asault' restriction... but any models in the unit that don't have Relentless are not. Whether or not they themselves fire a heavy weapon makes no difference. The unit fired heavy weapons, not all models in the unit have a rule that over-rides the restriction on the unit assaulting after firing heavy weapons... and so the unit can not assault.

Agreed. It's one of the reasons (I think) that Gunnery Sergeant Harker's entry reminds you that only he is Relentless, not his unit.

Right, and its the same thing, the unit fired heavy weapons but they are allowed to assault due to relentless.

It also makes a provision for the opposite situation (Where Relentless IC's that have joined a non relentless would still have to abide by the units restrictions) and if the unit did not fire a heavy weapon they could still assault.

I guess that just spawns the question of how does a "Unit" fire a heavy weapon?

They don't, Models fire heavy weapons, so the rule is intrinsically broken and we have to find the most amicable solution to the issue.

DeathReaper wrote:
I guess that just spawns the question of how does a "Unit" fire a heavy weapon?

You're trying apply the actions of one model onto the description of every individual model, when instead it should be applied to the unit as a whole.

This is no different than 1 model moving through difficult terrain, when the other 9 did not. If 1 model moved through terrain, then the "unit" takes a DT test. The unit is defined by what the model did/does.

The "unit" fired a heavy weapon because it is defined by a restrictive action that one of its models took part in. Similarly, if 1 model has defensive grenades, then the "unit" is equipped with defensive grenades, whereas if 1 model has assault grenades, only 1 model has assault grenades.


What I'm getting at is when they're talking about the "unit" firing heavy weapons, they're not talking about every single model firing a heavy weapon. They're using descriptive language to convey a state that the unit is in, a "fired heavy weapon" state.


Edited for clarity.

DeathReaper wrote:Right, and its the same thing, the unit fired heavy weapons but they are allowed to assault due to relentless.

No, the unit fired heavy weapons, and specific models are allowed to assault due to Relentless.

Relentless allows models[ to ignore the Heavy restriction on assaulting. It does not have a blanket effect on the unit.

So the models with Heavy weapons fire.
The unit has fired Heavy weapons. It therefore can not assault.
Some models in the unit have Relentless. This over-rides the no-assault restriction for those specific models.
Some models in the unit do not have Relentless. So the restriction still applies to them. They didn't fire heavy weapons, but the unit did.

If some models in the unit can assault, and some can't, the unit can not assault.

I guess that just spawns the question of how does a "Unit" fire a heavy weapon?

They don't, Models fire heavy weapons, so the rule is intrinsically broken and we have to find the most amicable solution to the issue.

Models fire heavy weapons... which means heavy weapons were fired by the unit, because the models are in the unit.

Soooo then.... Which IC's do I need to look for in my opponents Pally unit so I can make him "Sad Panda"?

gregor_xenos wrote:Soooo then.... Which IC's do I need to look for in my opponents Pally unit so I can make him "Sad Panda"?

Any IC not in Terminator armour.

So assault moves are not restricted to the slowest model in the unit? Or is it that the model that cannot assault isn't slower?

I learned something today either way.

I don't think there is a "slowest model" situation in assaults, I think it is more a can/can't situation, if 1 model in the unit can't assault then none can assault.

Probably just me reading something sideways.

/shrug

Makes less sense the more I read it.

heh

Apart from an IC joined to beasts or cavalry I can't think of any situation with a slowest model in assaults. They probably exist, but I can't think of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I suppose because you move into assault everyone assaults at the speed of the slowest model, so even that situation doesn't apply.

Any model with S&P. I.e. Ghaz.

And the real reason they remind you with the harker thing is because otherwise you might try to have your heavy weapon team move and fire.