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So in my adventures into my new Blood Angels army, I've realized that there are few things it can't tackle. I play a pretty standard Jumper/Devastator list (found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/425590.page), and It's served me well, tackling space marines of all types, necrons, and IG very handily. However, it's not all rainbows and sunshine. Hard targets like TH/SS terminators (especially with FNP), Nobz, Wolfstars, and Paladins are seriously hard to get rid of. Bringing them down requires well timed assaults with multiple squads of assault marines, all with the support of librarians and sanguinary priests, only after you have either fed them a bait squad or carefully outmaneuvered them. It's possible, and I've done it, but on top of all this, beating these deathstars takes more than a little luck.

So now I've come to you, Dakka-ites, in the hope that we can solve this issue for the sons of Sanguinus. What we need to find doesn't have to be a hardcore deathstar unit, but one that can act as a hammer to add some offensive punch while maintaining durability and the required mobility to keep up with the rest of the army. Lets go over some options, shall we?

Assault Terminators- Identical to their SM counterparts, but TH/SS cost about 5 points. This is probably fair, but pushes some of the cost efficiency out. In addition, they lack the mobility to keep up with a Jumper Army, and having them arrive via deep strike is dangerous without the Descent of Angels rule.

Sanguinary Guard- Offensively, these guys are pretty phenomenally powerful. 2A base, with access to a Chapter Banner, and master crafted power weapons are all pretty great. Throw in a Sanguinary Priest, and they're brutal. Small arms fire also bounces off of them like nothing in such a case, as 2+/FNP is hard to break. Their weakness? You're limited to 5 models, and have NO access to an invulnerable save.

Honor Guard- with a built in priest and the option for a chapter banner, HG are another very possible unit. Storm shields can provide the ever important 3++, while power weapons, fists, and lightning claws give the unit much needed punch. Hell, they can even take special weapons! The problem, however, is that all of these upgrades quickly add up to a hefty price tag, and like Sanguinary Guard, they are limited to 5 models.

Death Company- Ugh. I really don't like these guys. Regardless, they have a lot of what we're looking for. 3+/FNP, built in furious charge and WS5 with 2A base, options for jump packs and super stabby weapons, and a HUUUUUUGE benefit from the Chaplain/Reclusiarchs liturgies of blood... Other than an invulnerable save, these guys have it all! Well, not exactly. Rage means they are hard to control (especially with Jump Packs) and apparently strapping rockets to them for added mobility costs an arm and a leg. A possibility, but not one I'm too fond of.

Vanguard Veterans- Now here's the option I'm leaning to. A gigantic wargear selection, affordable jetpacks, storm shields, and combat implements, along with a few pretty awesome special rules. We all know that Heroic Intervention combined with Descent of Angels makes these guys the ultimate ninjas, but what about using them as a close combat rock? Sure, such a thing (especially in a 10 man squad) would be expensive, but when combined with our sick azz reclusiarchs (for CC punch and fearlessness) and a Sanguinary priest (for obvious reasons), this unit would be big, expensive, durable, and hella scary in combat. Furthermore, due to the new FAQ on reserves, combat squadding such a unit would allow one half to deploy (with ICs attached) and the other half to drop from the sky and make something vanish. We might be on to something...

So here's my nominee for our big bad unit of doom.

-10x Vanguard Veterens
Jump Packs
Sgt. with Thunder Hammer
3x Power Weapon
4x Storm Shield
2x Power Fist

And attached...
-Reclusiarch
Infernus Pistol
Jump Pack

-Sanguinary Priest
Power Weapon
Jump Pack

Silly expensive, but no more so than Assault Termies+Land Raider, or a Wolfstar. Thoughts? Suggestions? Nominees?

I have found Assault Terminators in a Stormraven is a great deathstar. I have gotton off many a turn one assault with it.

Agree with assault termies in stormraven. I always run one. They are fun to play and pretty effective. I put a sang priest in with them and will sometimes give it a combi-melta if I have points left over.

Another solid way to tackle those tough units is to use Mephiston. I run him with a 10 man squad surrounding him to give cover, with all of that behind a rhino/razorback. I then assault with both the jumpers and mephy, and it will wipe almost anything.

For the Wolves and Palladins, I suggest taking FOTD on your libby. -2 ld test will make those units break more than not with their lower leadership.

Another thing to consider are your Furioso Dreadnoughts. AV 13 and WS 6, if I'm recalling correctly.

Hits all those death star units (Paladins, TWC, Nobs) on 3's. Str 10 instagibs all of them, ignoring armor. And even str 8 PK's and TH's only glance on a 5+. All for about 1/3 the cost of a normal deathstar.

In theory, your unit is very powerful.

However, the delivery method of said unit is what makes it far too risky. If you want to assault right away, you're going to have to Heroic Intervention. Normally, I would have no qualms for Deep-Striking Blood Angels, due to the Descent of Angels rule. However, you have to Deep Strike within 6" to assault and you scatter D6"... God help you if you mishap and your 400+point unit bites the dust.

Again, if you deploy them and try and hop them over the table you face problems. A single Vindicator shot, even with 4 Storm Shields and the Reclusiarch's invuln, could decimate this squad and I know players who tend to run 3 of them. You'll be fine against single-shot weapons like Lascannons and missile however so I'd say deploy them all; you should have the speed to avoid rouge Vindicators.

Iranna.

Furioso Librarian Dread, end of. Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes.

Grab two of them for less than your crazy Vanguard unit, and they'll stomp it + anything else sans 2D6 in combat Armour pen into the ground. WS6, 12"move, loads of attacks, AV13; they're the daemon princes of the BA codex. Underpointed.

Death Company are the next cab off the rank. WS5 check. Can take more than one powerfist. I often use 5 Jump pack models with a Thunderhammer and 2 power weapons for 235 points, but you can run them just about any way, Drop Pods, Rhinos, etc. Bolters n Powerfists is strong, it's sort of like a Tactical Terminator squad with ablative wounds.

Assault Terminators + Unleash Rage = good. 6" Move, not so much. Still, great unit.

Honor Guard third, built in FNP and FC like the Death Company, but limited to 5 models, and the 5 JP Death Company get WS5 on everyone for just 10 points more. Great with the Champ, Banner, a couple of Shields, a thunderhammer and lightning claw, but that's ~300 points for 5 1w models. You really have to leverage the FNP bubble on other units and the bubble/+1 attack bonus on an HQ (like Astorath) to make them worth taking.

Sang Guard, not designed to go head to head with armor ignoring attacks in combat - which is everything you listed.

Pitch Vanguard against anything meant for combat and they'll fail, WS4 is just too hard of a burden to overcome, and you can't attach characters to them for all meaningful purposes. Vanguard will forever be a useful a unit to hunt things that don't want to be in assault.

Winner by a country mile is the Furioso.

2nd is Death Company/Assault Terms.

A distant third is Honour Guard.

Sang Guard and Vanguard need not apply.

In a Jump Infantry BA list, Honour Guard are among the worst things you can throw into combat. They're really your only legit mobile firepower unit since they can load up with 4 meltaguns. That means you want to keep them moving, opening tanks for your ASM squads.

I'd suggest the Sanguinor with Sanguinary guard and Sanguinary priest. A tad on the expensive side but extremely powerful!

Ruarinator2 wrote:I'd suggest the Sanguinor with Sanguinary guard and Sanguinary priest. A tad on the expensive side but extremely powerful!

Unfortunately, the Sanguinor is not an IC :(

Unless you meant he just runs along beside them?


The Furioso Librarian idea sounds pretty cool, but I don't like the idea of my super combat unit getting wrecked by a lucky lascannon shot 1st turn.

Dreadnaught Librarians are badass but pretty easy to kill. They essentially have 1 wound, after all, and no invulnerable save.
As an IG player though Honour Guard are terrifying. DC are just expensive assault troops.

Banner and sanguinor's bonus attacks dont stack.

th3maninblak wrote: We all know that Heroic Intervention combined with Descent of Angels makes these guys the ultimate ninjas, but what about using them as a close combat rock? Sure, such a thing (especially in a 10 man squad) would be expensive, but when combined with our sick azz reclusiarchs (for CC punch and fearlessness) and a Sanguinary priest (for obvious reasons), this unit would be big, expensive, durable, and hella scary in combat.

Because Sanguinary Priests and Reclusiarchs don't have Heroic Intervention, you can't use it if they're attached. You could, however, DS or drive up a Sang Priest to be in range of the Vanguard the turn they drop, and they'd be able to benefit from his aura.

th3maninblak wrote:Furthermore, due to the new FAQ on reserves, combat squadding such a unit would allow one half to deploy (with ICs attached) and the other half to drop from the sky and make something vanish. We might be on to something...

You have this wrong. You still can't split Combat Squads into one half in reserve, one half on the table. What you CAN do is Reserve them, then split them as they arrive, Deep Striking each half to a different location on the table.

Personally I think the best deathstar we've got is Death Company + Reclusiarch, coming out of a Land Raider or Storm Raven. You can pack in plenty of upgrade weapons, and WS5 S5 (or S9) re-rolling to hit and to wound can kill just about anything in the game. The exceptions, really, are paladins and death cult assassins. Death cults you need to shoot. Paladins you need to shoot, though multi-charging with a dreadnought or the sanguinor something can work as well, especially if by maneuver you can spread them out and force them to split/reduce their attacks while you get all of yours.

2 Vindi's. They have the advantage of being good against pretty much any type of army. THey are especially good against exceptionally powerful units like terminators, nobs, dragowing, wolfstars, etc. They also take a lot of the heat off of your jump marines and synergize well since they drive forward and provide cover.

Pop the landraider with the assault squad meltas, drop the two pieplates, then assault the remnants with the assault squad.

BronzeJon wrote:Banner and sanguinor's bonus attacks dont stack.

Sure they do.

I used to run an Epistolary (Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage) with Honor Guard - all with jump packs - in a Stormraven with a Furioso dreadnaught (Bloodfists). The HG were kitted as such:

2x lightning claw & stormshield
Pair of lightning claws
Thunderhammer & stormshield
Novitiate

I think having a Librarian is very useful just for the psychic hood.

Combined together this was a powerhouse unit and did well versus other deathstars such as Thunderwolves. The release of the Grey Knight codex put a real hurt on them though and is pretty much the reason why I don't play BA now. Before the release of the new GK codex this unit was pure gold though. Oh well.

Despite its fragility, I want to explore the furioso libby a bit. Obviously we'll want the wings of sanguinus power, but beyond that? Shield is good, but both of my other librarians have that. Unleash rage and migjt of heroes could also be pretty awesome.

He's got WS 6, unleash rage would be better if he were a regular librarian leading a squad. Sanguine sword would be lots of fun, as it'd be a highly powerful assault weapon with a force weapon, making him pretty dangerous.

I'd have to test out a furioso libby, they sound crazy but honestly, a regular furioso with dual blood talons is what I'd go for, although that could be comparing two different hings. Dual talons = anti-infantry powerhouse, librarian with sanguine sword is a highly difficult to penetrate assault unit with likely extremely high Strength attacks, that also happens to fly meaning it can essentially move 18 inches into an assault.....

Come to think of it, now I really want to give that a test-run XD


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wait.....actually, i'll check my codex, I'm probably wrong on the WS 6 part, that is likely only on the furioso..


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oh, nice, forgot it's just an upgraded furioso, WS6 indeed!


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I'd really mostly use sanguine sword if I were facing an army I knew to have high toughness or terminators or something..hmm.....

Titan Atlas wrote:He's got WS 6, unleash rage would be better if he were a regular librarian leading a squad. Sanguine sword would be lots of fun, as it'd be a highly powerful assault weapon with a force weapon, making him pretty dangerous.

I'd have to test out a furioso libby, they sound crazy but honestly, a regular furioso with dual blood talons is what I'd go for, although that could be comparing two different hings. Dual talons = anti-infantry powerhouse, librarian with sanguine sword is a highly difficult to penetrate assault unit with likely extremely high Strength attacks, that also happens to fly meaning it can essentially move 18 inches into an assault.....

Come to think of it, now I really want to give that a test-run XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wait.....actually, i'll check my codex, I'm probably wrong on the WS 6 part, that is likely only on the furioso..


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oh, nice, forgot it's just an upgraded furioso, WS6 indeed!


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I'd really mostly use sanguine sword if I were facing an army I knew to have high toughness or terminators or something..hmm.....

Sang Sword on the libby dread is not worth it. He can only use one power a turn, so if he wants Str 10 use the DCW, and use Rage to reroll attacks, or Blood Lance of Wings as the power.

aahhhhh yes, true, the DCW. Yeah, sword is a waste. Hmm.....rage would be good to compliment that, and I still think wings is a good choice, although I might consider alternating between lance and rage with wings depending on the likelihood of me facing razorbacks/other tanks and lots of infantry.

Fun things to do though, interesting possibilities.


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yeah, sanguine sword would be a complete waste, I mean..he comes with a blood fist anyways. Thanks for pointing that one out XD almost decided on trying that...oh well.

5x Termis w/ Sang Priest + Libby attached in a SR. GIve 3 termis claws, 2 TH/SS. 12 str 5 reroll hits/wounds LC's is awesome on the charge!

I will definitely give that a shot at some point.

Zid wrote:5x Termis w/ Sang Priest + Libby attached in a SR. GIve 3 termis claws, 2 TH/SS. 12 str 5 reroll hits/wounds LC's is awesome on the charge!

Actually, that seems MORE expensive than most of the other options on this list. Plus, the mobility of that unit depends entirely on an AV12 vehicle.

I saw an interesting option on some random blog, using Chaplains+HQs to make a multi wound complex unit. It would look something like this...

-Reclusarch
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Librarian
Sanguine Sword
???
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
Melta Bombs
-Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Weapons

This is pretty rediculous, and probably wouldn't actually work, but it would be fun to give it a shot! XD

Might of Heroes on the Librarian Dread.

Throwing more dice in the first place is always better than rerolling failed WS6 attacks (and affects vehicles)

Because he's vulnerable to Melta, you rock up with Wings first turn into combat for 4 attacks at str 6 or 10, then aim to win on your opponent's turn with a beatdown of 4 or 5 or 6 Str 10 attacks.

You can run them as is, in Drop Pods, or in the Stormraven, it really depends on how your list is built with the rest of it.

I saw an interesting option on some random blog, using Chaplains+HQs to make a multi wound complex unit. It would look something like this...

-Reclusarch
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Librarian
Sanguine Sword
???
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
Melta Bombs
-Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Weapons

This is pretty rediculous, and probably wouldn't actually work, but it would be fun to give it a shot! XD

I think it might work with Chap + HQ + pimped HG (different wargear + hidden priest)

Dante, Lemartes and JP death company in a Storm Raven.

In the games I've played them they smash everything.

Add in a DC Dread to the SR if you choose Death Company. If not, a Furioso dread. Either one makes this combo very dangerous.

I used two units of 5 assault terminators in redeemer. Duality helps here also. Not nearly all list can handle 2 identical rocks coming at them fast.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Dante, Lemartes and JP death company in a Storm Raven.

In the games I've played them they smash everything.

I don't even know how many points that is in a single AV12 model. If your opponent struggles to take it down, you need better opponants.

Joey wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Dante, Lemartes and JP death company in a Storm Raven.

In the games I've played them they smash everything.

I don't even know how many points that is in a single AV12 model. If your opponent struggles to take it down, you need better opponants.

Either 715 or 735 before weapon upgrades. Thats 4 DC w/Packs or 8 DC walking Either way a large chunk of your points.

th3maninblak wrote:

Zid wrote:5x Termis w/ Sang Priest + Libby attached in a SR. GIve 3 termis claws, 2 TH/SS. 12 str 5 reroll hits/wounds LC's is awesome on the charge!

Actually, that seems MORE expensive than most of the other options on this list. Plus, the mobility of that unit depends entirely on an AV12 vehicle.

I use it with a second raven with Mephy and a furioso inside; you'd be amazed how hard they are down

th3maninblak wrote:

Zid wrote:5x Termis w/ Sang Priest + Libby attached in a SR. GIve 3 termis claws, 2 TH/SS. 12 str 5 reroll hits/wounds LC's is awesome on the charge!

Actually, that seems MORE expensive than most of the other options on this list. Plus, the mobility of that unit depends entirely on an AV12 vehicle.

I saw an interesting option on some random blog, using Chaplains+HQs to make a multi wound complex unit. It would look something like this...

-Reclusarch
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Librarian
Sanguine Sword
???
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Infernus Pistol
Melta Bombs
-Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Weapons

This is pretty rediculous, and probably wouldn't actually work, but it would be fun to give it a shot! XD

Thats not a bad idea, what does that come to about 660 points. It's about the same price as a unit of TH/SS termines ina LRC with a priest in termie armour

Pros
9 total wounds
almost all pw attacks
easy to find cover
FNP

Cons
High cost
no higher S than 4
no higher T than 4

It might work but it's pretty vunlerable to ID, one plate from a vindicator will end this unit