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I've always found them very interesting and wanted to get some feed back from the DA players out there on what it's like playing this chapter.

They are a marine army. Ravenwing/Deathwing are simply overload lists that take more bikes/termies. On the table they are a vanilla marine list with less options.

Fluff wise, on the other hand, they are very nice and have the full history of GW to fall back on for stories.

Fluff wise, really nice. If you're an experienced MEQ player, then you can do fun things with them on the table, but they are unfortunately vanilla with less options and couple shiny rules.

I love my dark angels, but I really can't play well with them at all.

I always have fun with my deathwing army, its all termies, dreads, and land raiders. Depending on the opponents it will go really well or really bad. Either way it is a lot of fun, also it is a great army if you don’t like moving around a lot of models. The only down side to deathwing is that our terminator squads are limited to 5 when all other SM armies can have up to 10. I also have a large army of regular DA. However as of late they have been played as just regular SM due to the fact that the rules for power armour DA are limiting and more points than SM. Regular SM have more options and are fewer points. Also SM are more flexible for any leftover points. DA can only have squads of 5 or 10. You buy the first 5 and pay to add 5 more. SM can have 6, 7, and 8 so there it is easy to fill out all of your points.

They are a Marine army that performs worse than other Marine armies, due to fewer options and higher points costs. Alternately, they're a Marine army with lots of Terminators that can be good in the hands of a somewhat skilled player. It feels very similar to playing Codex Marines in general.

Codex: Space Marines Hard Mode

They are badly in need of an update, to be on par with other Marine armies. They do have a great background. Dual wing can be fun.

We are overcosted in our Power Armour and Ravenwing sections.

Most Competitive DA players field multiple squads of Terminators along with our low cost typhoon speeders and predators

I run Greenwing personally, I always get stomped by pretty much everything. That said, I've seen decent results by people running DeathRaven in my FLGS.

Hummm I'm not really freat with them because they lack tanks but they can have great troops choices termys or bikers so yeah there cool

Their fluff seemed cool and the Lion was the first Primarch found. That's what drew my interest.

Volkov wrote:Codex: Space Marines Hard Mode

This, basically.
But, like hard difficulty, it feels more satisfying when you DO win.
They're also really cool.

My only experience with Dark Angels since 3rd ed was last week.

Guy playing Greenwing, had an Azrael deathstar in a landraider.
Admittedly he had a lot of bad rolls when it came to saves, but I tabled him in 2.5 turns, ending with a tiny veteran being eaten by my talos.

Oh, and it was a 1750pt game and due to an interesting deployment set up and me dedicating a percentage of my forces to taking that objective (5 flights up, nowhere to put my raiders) roughly 500pts of my army never engaged the enemy.

That said, they're apparently about to get a new codex, be in the 6th starter edition and you can always build / paint your marines as Dark Angels and keep both Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Dark Angels to hand depending on whether you want a fun game or to run a more competitive list.

SMC wrote:Their fluff seemed cool and the Lion was the first Primarch found. That's what drew my interest.

that was horus mate, DA were the first legion to be created.

As someone said earlier, we have higher points costs for the same or worse options than the vanilla codex, this is due the "less is more" game design that also nerfed the chaos dex and eldar to a
lesser degree, after the GD's found this idea sucked royally, we got the SM codex, the rest is history.

the theme and look of the DA are better than most of the other SM chapters (mostly due to not having been updated by poor fluff writers), good list include dual wing (ravenwing/deathwing) pure DW with TH/SS/Cyclone termies (also
Termy command sqaud with apoth and banner that gives +1 attack on profile to its unit, meaning killing the banner does not remove the bonus), pure ravenwing is very hard to master, and there is little point at the moment to going
greenwing as the vanilla dex does it all better for less (unless your stubborn like me and refuse to change lol)

Ah see I thought they numbered the Legions by when the Emperor reunited with them. My bad. I would have figured the Imperial Fist to be first. I do like the DA quite a bit but Sanguinius is my favorite so I'm to play his scions.

In all the fluff thru the years, the DA are the #1 chapter. Unfortunately GW has all but forgotten about them. The flag ship chapter has been deserted. They have the best fluff but not the best options. Thru the years GW has taken everything that they gave to the DA, after playtesting, and distributed them to all chapters, i.e. whirlwind incenderary rounds, plasma cannons in the tac squads, combat squads, etc. It is okay but it seems they have just quit caring about this chapter. I still have mine and dust them off every now and again but it is hard to win with them. They are fun to play with but not as competitive.

AzureDeath wrote:In all the fluff thru the years, the DA are the #1 chapter. Unfortunately GW has all but forgotten about them. The flag ship chapter has been deserted. They have the best fluff but not the best options. Thru the years GW has taken everything that they gave to the DA, after playtesting, and distributed them to all chapters, i.e. whirlwind incenderary rounds, plasma cannons in the tac squads, combat squads, etc. It is okay but it seems they have just quit caring about this chapter. I still have mine and dust them off every now and again but it is hard to win with them. They are fun to play with but not as competitive.

I prefer to think of Dark Angels as the new Mentor Legion. They beta test all the Imperium's finest stuff and train other Marines how to use it. It's the only answer that isn't groin-punchingly infuriating.

That sounds good, I like it. Agree Darkness

DarknessEternal wrote:I prefer to think of Dark Angels as the new Mentor Legion. They beta test all the Imperium's finest stuff and train other Marines how to use it. It's the only answer that isn't groin-punchingly infuriating.

It does helps you to sleep better thinking that way I just say a curse to Jervish Johnson everytime his name is brought up. "Curse you Jervis Johnson for ever touching our book" something like that really helps me

Does anyone have the white dwarf with Jervis Johnsons designer notes? I have it buried somewhere but I do remember vividly that he actually says he designed the codex after watching his 13 year old build armies.

Volkov wrote:Does anyone have the white dwarf with Jervis Johnsons designer notes? I have it buried somewhere but I do remember vividly that he actually says he designed the codex after watching his 13 year old build armies.

Yes he did and it shows. WD 326 p 29 he even goes on to say "My guiding overall principle when planning the book was that the miniatures range should come first, and the army list and rules should be driven by the models" just like a 13 year old, what a JACK A%#. The last codex he wrote before DA was SW 3rd being out of game development for that long he should have stayed buried in the black library and left it to real writers.

dont bash jervis for doing his job lol, it was the way the studio were going at the time, he was given limitations with the rules based on the model range (this is the REAL reason we got 5 man termy squads) and the rest of the GD team, same as matt wards awful codex's.

what im trying to say is, its not just his fault

Formosa wrote:dont bash jervis for doing his job lol, it was the way the studio were going at the time, he was given limitations with the rules based on the model range (this is the REAL reason we got 5 man termy squads) and the rest of the GD team, same as matt wards awful codex's.

what im trying to say is, its not just his fault

Jervis is the head writer and developer, he literally is the one who makes the limitations of the rules! It was his ruleset that he created for "Streamlined" Process, and the Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space marine split. He's on a team now (Thank god) But he's still a whiny considering the messenge he left for Ogre Kingdoms on their FAQ

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Formosa wrote:dont bash jervis for doing his job lol, it was the way the studio were going at the time, he was given limitations with the rules based on the model range (this is the REAL reason we got 5 man termy squads) and the rest of the GD team, same as matt wards awful codex's.

what im trying to say is, its not just his fault

Jervis is the head writer and developer, he literally is the one who makes the limitations of the rules! It was his ruleset that he created for "Streamlined" Process, and the Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space marine split. He's on a team now (Thank god) But he's still a whiny considering the messenge he left for Ogre Kingdoms on their FAQ

If anything it shows how narrow minded he and most of the other design studio are. With the exception of Ward (who is insane) those guys don't think in the contects of no holds bar tournament play. They design to "the spirit of the game". These guys work in an environment where all you have to do is walk over to the next cubicle and say “hey want to have a game”. It is a mostly casual beer and pretzels thing for them.
Most of us do not live in this world. We may have a few people that we can have a friendly game with, but otherwise we have to pick up games and tournaments for games. If you don’t want to get hammered in a tournament you have to come up with something that combats the forum surfers that endlessly burn up the net looking for the cheesiest list they can bring. In pickup games you have to be on guard for people practicing for tournaments or the obnoxious game store kid that takes every special character in the book. That is why these issues come up somebody in the studio has a really bad idea (i.e., Drago, Long Fangs, Death Co Dreads, Codex Eldar the list goes on) and they think “oh this is not underpowered” or “nobody would abuse this” it’s all for fun. Yes it is supposed to be for fun, unfortunately in many circumstances only one of the players may be out to have fun. The other mouth breather is out to pound somebody into the ground to fill the other voids in their life and the rest of us and the game suffer for it. The studio guys don’t see that side of the hobby and don’t want to.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:[\ The other mouth breather is out to pound somebody into the ground to fill the other voids in their life and the rest of us and the game suffer for it. The studio guys don’t see that side of the hobby and don’t want to.

I really wouldn't bash people who simply want to play the game differently than you. It's no different than any other game that has a casual or competitive scene. Bowling is known as a casual game but there is a subset of bowlers that are professionals.

The biggest issues are

A) No support from the design studio for multiple ways of playing the game.
B) No official venues for playing different types of games.

Contrast this with a game like magic the gathering. The designers specifically set out to design cards that appeal to different segments of their audience. You've got the low costed efficient search/draw/counter/etc cards aimed at competitive players and cards with wacky effects or cool big giant monsters that appeal to casual players. Furthermore they officially sanction and provide prize support for events that cater to all the differing play styles. From release events, to tournaments, drafting, multiplayer, etc. As well as magic online that has different rooms depending on the type of game you're looking for. There are also a lot of different game types for both casual and competitive players. You've got standard, block, vintage, legacy, etc for competitive players and pauper, two headed giant, emperor, cube drafts, etc for casual players.

So you have two game companies producing products both for roughly 20+ years but one is extremely successful with an ever expanding market.....and one that's the exact opposite.

Bottom line is if you make a good game people will buy your product.

Droma wrote: I really wouldn't bash people who simply want to play the game differently than you. It's no different than any other game that has a casual or competitive scene. Bowling is known as a casual game but there is a subset of bowlers that are professionals.

The biggest issues are

A) No support from the design studio for multiple ways of playing the game.
B) No official venues for playing different types of games.

Contrast this with a game like magic the gathering. The designers specifically set out to design cards that appeal to different segments of their audience. You've got the low costed efficient search/draw/counter/etc cards aimed at competitive players and cards with wacky effects or cool big giant monsters that appeal to casual players. Furthermore they officially sanction and provide prize support for events that cater to all the differing play styles. From release events, to tournaments, drafting, multiplayer, etc. As well as magic online that has different rooms depending on the type of game you're looking for. There are also a lot of different game types for both casual and competitive players. You've got standard, block, vintage, legacy, etc for competitive players and pauper, two headed giant, emperor, cube drafts, etc for casual players.

So you have two game companies producing products both for roughly 20+ years but one is extremely successful with an ever expanding market.....and one that's the exact opposite.

Bottom line is if you make a good game people will buy your product.

I don’t mean to bash players directly just distinguish that the studio is not writing for the kind of gamer that you run into on a regular basis. Apologies to anyone who I may have been offended, it was just to illustrate an extreme. Bottom line is the studio is just out of touch.
Droma you are 100% correct Wizards is much better at balance than GW. Every once in a while those big creature deck win, or the 10 cent common trumps $300 of combos. It just shows that wizards keeps in mind the tournament atmosphere in their development.

I think it would be more fun to field an army of Fallen.

What codex would be used, chaos, DA, or smurfs?

Kevlar wrote:I think it would be more fun to field an army of Fallen.

What codex would be used, chaos, DA, or smurfs?

I would say chaos, just take all undivided stuff. SM really isn't a good fit, becuase the fallen should not get "and they shall know no fear". I think there are still Cypher rules floating around somewhere for an HQ choice.

Dark Angels do play rather like a Marine army, no mistake, because they are one. Deathwing and Ravenwing are useful additions; slightly more expensive than their counterparts in the normal Codex, but they gain Fearless, Scouts and teleport homers in the case of the Ravenwing, and Deathwing Assault in the case of the Deathwing. They interact well with each other; Scouts and turbo-boosting allow the bikes to get into place for the Deathwing to take advantage of their teleport homers on the turn-one Deathwing Assault drop.

Fluff-wise, Fallen Angels don't usually congregate into armies because they'd be too easy for the Dark Angels to find; they tend to be old and powerful servants of Chaos who might gather a warband to protect them. Just build a Chaos army like you normally would, then declare the leader a Fallen Angel and give Dark Angels bonus points for killing him in any game.

AnomanderRake wrote:Dark Angels do play rather like a Marine army, no mistake, because they are one. Deathwing and Ravenwing are useful additions; slightly more expensive than their counterparts in the normal Codex, but they gain Fearless, Scouts and teleport homers in the case of the Ravenwing, and Deathwing Assault in the case of the Deathwing. They interact well with each other; Scouts and turbo-boosting allow the bikes to get into place for the Deathwing to take advantage of their teleport homers on the turn-one Deathwing Assault drop.
.

Not allowed to turbo boost scout ravenwing . Nice of GW to take away our scoring attack bike and land speeder and leave that clunker of a rule around.