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Say it's a gunwagon with a Kilkannon; why do people say you should take big shootas to mitigate weapon destroyed since the shooter picks what's taken off?

Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Henners91 wrote:Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Yes

Doesn't seem worth it... I guess I should check how much Big Shootas actually are; if they're 5-10 points then maybe.

But if you're taking a minimal-cost Battlewagon (if such a thing exists?) and it loses its Kilkannon, then there's not much of a point in keeping it surely?

I suppose you could give it a Death Rolla and have it go on a mowing spree if it loses its armament. I might try two Shootas and a Kilkannon if others agree?

Big shootas are cheap, from memory - 5pts seems about right

I dont usually see kannon used on BW, just see them used as transports with deffrollas

Yeah I am building two... one will be a minimalist transport, but the first that I am working on atm is based on a KV-2 with that fabulous turret... so it has to have something dead flash 'n' killy mounted on it, no?

Big shootas are 5 points, the extra insurance is usually worth it.

The primary purpose of the wagon is to get a bunch of Boyz into close combat (the primary purpose of a bunch of Boyz is to keep the Power Klaw in Combat for as long as possible).
The Big Shootas give you several ablative weapons that you can remove. Without them, any Weapon Destroyed result immobilizes the Wagon (and any subsequent Immobilization OR Weapon Destroyed kills it).
This forces the Boyz to either sit tight (effectively removing them from the game) or get out and start walking...whereupon they get flamered and shot to pieces before getting the Klaw into action.

That is the entire purpose of big Shootas...to keep the wagon alive long enough to get Boyz into combat.

But I imagine I'll be running it with Tankbustaz or Flash Gitz... So I really am not sure just how to make it all work. I am probably going to magnetise some spare Leman Russ sponsons onto the turret.

Those Big Shootas ahve saved by Wagon several times. Most often I've seen people recommend one big shoota for this purpouse, though I personally run two. Or one and a Kannon.

I'd generally recommend against using the Killkanon, though - in theory and practice it's proven to me to be far too expensive for what it provides.

Tank-Bustas or flashGitz? Put em in a Trukk, move them asap into a fire base position, then shoot every up.
Wagons are to get a bunch of boyz or Gazzy and Nobs into Combat ASAP (and you ALWAYS take a KFF-Mech in one wagon for the cover-save bubble).
If you want to be tricksies, set a bunch of Burna-Boyz in the wagon. Nothing worse than having 15+ flamer templates roll up for 50+ auto-hits and 30+ wounds (or insta-deaths if your not MEQ)...AFTER the death-rolla just dropped a S10 smack on whatever unit it just rammed.

Always worth it. I always take 2 weapons, either dual BS or BS + Kannon as it is nice to be able to shoot blasts on the go as defensive weapons.

Also, not only protecting against immobilized results, but it forces your opponent to not ignore your BW. 6 str 5 shots is enough to harass and usually harm any AV10 object. Having options on a cheapwagon is always nice.

#1 What rules are you having a tough time understanding? (Wrong forum maybe?)

Da Boss wrote:Big shootas are 5 points, the extra insurance is usually worth it.

#2: The above is probably why.

Henners91 wrote:Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Essentially, Yes.
What hasn't been mentioned for you, OP, is that battlewagons do not come with a weapon.

So If you're using a barebones battlewagon, your damage chart looks a bit like-
1-stunned (your open topped!)
2 or 3- immobilized! (your open topped makes a 2 go to a 3, a weapon destroyed. You are already without a weapon, so you become immobilized)
4- wrecked (+1 to the chart!)
5 or 6- destroyed.

So a 1/6 chance you can't move or shoot
a 2/3 chance of immobilized
and a 3/6 or 1/2 chance of being blown.

The other things is multiple hits from a single unit, like a rifleman dread against side armor. Against a barebones battlewagon, all i need to roll is a pair of 2's.
The first will immobilize you (its a weap destroyed result, not weaps means it becomes immobilized.)
The second will wreck you (weap destroyed upgraded to immobilized, already immobilized means wrecked)

Without any weapons/upgrades, All I need to do is not roll snake eyes on 2 penetrating hits against your thin and long AV12 side armoured tank and it will be destroyed.

Jihallah wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Essentially, Yes.
What hasn't been mentioned for you, OP, is that battlewagons do not come with a weapon.

So If you're using a barebones battlewagon, your damage chart looks a bit like-
1-stunned (your open topped!)
2 or 3- immobilized! (your open topped makes a 2 go to a 3, a weapon destroyed. You are already without a weapon, so you become immobilized)
4- wrecked (+1 to the chart!)
5 or 6- destroyed.

So a 1/6 chance you can't move or shoot
a 2/3 chance of immobilized
and a 3/6 or 1/2 chance of being blown.

The other things is multiple hits from a single unit, like a rifleman dread against side armor. Against a barebones battlewagon, all i need to roll is a pair of 2's.
The first will immobilize you (its a weap destroyed result, not weaps means it becomes immobilized.)
The second will wreck you (weap destroyed upgraded to immobilized, already immobilized means wrecked)

Without any weapons/upgrades, All I need to do is not roll snake eyes on 2 penetrating hits against your thin and long AV12 side armoured tank and it will be destroyed.

I'm pretty sure you only take the highest result from multiple hits

Rejn wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Essentially, Yes.
What hasn't been mentioned for you, OP, is that battlewagons do not come with a weapon.

So If you're using a barebones battlewagon, your damage chart looks a bit like-
1-stunned (your open topped!)
2 or 3- immobilized! (your open topped makes a 2 go to a 3, a weapon destroyed. You are already without a weapon, so you become immobilized)
4- wrecked (+1 to the chart!)
5 or 6- destroyed.

So a 1/6 chance you can't move or shoot
a 2/3 chance of immobilized
and a 3/6 or 1/2 chance of being blown.

The other things is multiple hits from a single unit, like a rifleman dread against side armor. Against a barebones battlewagon, all i need to roll is a pair of 2's.
The first will immobilize you (its a weap destroyed result, not weaps means it becomes immobilized.)
The second will wreck you (weap destroyed upgraded to immobilized, already immobilized means wrecked)

Without any weapons/upgrades, All I need to do is not roll snake eyes on 2 penetrating hits against your thin and long AV12 side armoured tank and it will be destroyed.

I'm pretty sure you only take the highest result from multiple hits

And Im very sure that you are wrong. (With the only exception being multiple "Explodes" results

dkellyj wrote:Tank-Bustas or flashGitz? Put em in a Trukk, move them asap into a fire base position, then shoot every up.
Wagons are to get a bunch of boyz or Gazzy and Nobs into Combat ASAP (and you ALWAYS take a KFF-Mech in one wagon for the cover-save bubble).
If you want to be tricksies, set a bunch of Burna-Boyz in the wagon. Nothing worse than having 15+ flamer templates roll up for 50+ auto-hits and 30+ wounds (or insta-deaths if your not MEQ)...AFTER the death-rolla just dropped a S10 smack on whatever unit it just rammed.

Neither flash gits, nor tank bustas can take a trukk. If you buy boyz to get that trukk, you could just as well get a battlewagon and a unit of gretchin for the same price.
Burnaz don't instant death anything besides gretchin.

nkelsch wrote:Always worth it. I always take 2 weapons, either dual BS or BS + Kannon as it is nice to be able to shoot blasts on the go as defensive weapons.

Also, not only protecting against immobilized results, but it forces your opponent to not ignore your BW. 6 str 5 shots is enough to harass and usually harm any AV10 object. Having options on a cheapwagon is always nice.

You'd have to stay still to shoot both and the deff rolla is reason enough for most players to not ignore it. For shooting, the kannon is definitely the better option, as you can either take lucky shots at vehicles or fire shoota and small blast at infantry.

tedurur wrote:And Im very sure that you are wrong. (With the only exception being multiple "Explodes" results

This is correct. You are probably thinking of the ramshackle table, which only counts the highest result.

Jidmah wrote:

dkellyj wrote:Tank-Bustas or flashGitz? Put em in a Trukk, move them asap into a fire base position, then shoot every up.
Wagons are to get a bunch of boyz or Gazzy and Nobs into Combat ASAP (and you ALWAYS take a KFF-Mech in one wagon for the cover-save bubble).
If you want to be tricksies, set a bunch of Burna-Boyz in the wagon. Nothing worse than having 15+ flamer templates roll up for 50+ auto-hits and 30+ wounds (or insta-deaths if your not MEQ)...AFTER the death-rolla just dropped a S10 smack on whatever unit it just rammed.

Neither flash gits, nor tank bustas can take a trukk. If you buy boyz to get that trukk, you could just as well get a battlewagon and a unit of gretchin for the same price.
Burnaz don't instant death anything besides gretchin.

In regards to the instant death comment. He didn't mean instant death as in S >= Double toughness, he meant "The burnas will drop so much damage it will annihilate anything in the game"

I've seen burna wagons kill 10 man terminator squads in 1 volley. Wagon rolls up, flamer template covers 7 models.
Marine player; "7 terminators hit, lewl! That's less then 1 dead on average!"
Ork player "No, that's 105 automatic hits....and 52 wounds....make 52 saves"
Marine player "Oh god no! My terminators!"

Even clipping 3-4 models is enough to wipe out 30 man squads of boyz, termigants, blobs and 10 man squads of marines. It's extremely potent if you don't know what it can do.

I thought you could only have 1 or 2 models fire from inside vehicles though. Or do you mean they fire after they dissembark

wowsmash wrote:I thought you could only have 1 or 2 models fire from inside vehicles though. Or do you mean they fire after they dissembark

Rhinos only have 2 firing points.
Chimeras have 5?
Open topped vehicles have no limit.

Isn't the battle wagon enclosed though?

Nope, Open-topped unless you take 'ard case.

The Kannon is always worth taking on the Battlewagon. Being able to shoot 36" in Krak or Frag mode as a defensive weapon is quite useful. For 10 points, it's a bargain. If you want added insurance against Weapon Destroyed results, take 1 or 2 extra Big Shootas.

There sure is a lot of rules missinterpretation in this thread...

On topic, i'm not a fan of any weapons besides a single big shoota on my battlewagons. I take riggers on my wagons, so my shooting phase is used on repairs, not pot-shots. Personally, a feel like the chance to get your wagon on the move again is better then taking a pot-shot with a bs 2 missile launcher, or throwing a puny small blast at some infantry squad. It's also cheaper, no? Seems like a better deal to me. Also, killkannons? ehhhh... no thanks. Its got the profile of an autocannon at half range and a large blast. So look at what you're getting there. A gunwagon is 130 points with just the killkannon. Throw a regular old kannon on to stop yourself from being useless on a weapon destroyed, along with plating and ard case if it's going to be a gunwagon, you have 175 points. That's more then a demo-russ right, and what do you get? 1 less side armor, 1 less back armor, a gun with same range, but three less strength and 2 less AP, and less guns on the move. You do get a transport capacity, but if it's a gunwagon, you probably arn't using it. You can also move faster, but that's wasted because you're firing that red-headed stepchild of the demo cannon. Baaad trade, if you ask me.

+1 for Kannon and 1 Big Shoota. For 15 pts, you get good immobilization protection as well as a krak missile for anti-vehicle or HB + frag missile for anti-infantry. You're often going to be moving 12" so you won't always be shooting, but a measly 15 pts makes that shooting worthwhile when you use it.

Jidmah wrote:

tedurur wrote:And Im very sure that you are wrong. (With the only exception being multiple "Explodes" results

This is correct. You are probably thinking of the ramshackle table, which only counts the highest result.

your correct, thank you for respectfully clearifying

Jihallah wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Is it just to stop your tank getting immobilised/destroyed by a WD result?

Essentially, Yes.
What hasn't been mentioned for you, OP, is that battlewagons do not come with a weapon.

So If you're using a barebones battlewagon, your damage chart looks a bit like-
1-stunned (your open topped!)
2 or 3- immobilized! (your open topped makes a 2 go to a 3, a weapon destroyed. You are already without a weapon, so you become immobilized)
4- wrecked (+1 to the chart!)
5 or 6- destroyed.

So a 1/6 chance you can't move or shoot
a 2/3 chance of immobilized
and a 3/6 or 1/2 chance of being blown.

The other things is multiple hits from a single unit, like a rifleman dread against side armor. Against a barebones battlewagon, all i need to roll is a pair of 2's.
The first will immobilize you (its a weap destroyed result, not weaps means it becomes immobilized.)
The second will wreck you (weap destroyed upgraded to immobilized, already immobilized means wrecked)

Without any weapons/upgrades, All I need to do is not roll snake eyes on 2 penetrating hits against your thin and long AV12 side armoured tank and it will be destroyed.

There is also the threat of glancing hits.

Glancing hit
1-2 Shaken
3 Stunned
4-5 Immobilized if it's out of big shootas
6 wrecked

If an ork is going to buy a deffrolla, grot riggers, and a red paint job to keep the wagon moving may as well throw in a pair of heavy shootas to avoid being immobilized by a weapon destroyed result.

loota boy wrote:There sure is a lot of rules missinterpretation in this thread...

On topic, i'm not a fan of any weapons besides a single big shoota on my battlewagons. I take riggers on my wagons, so my shooting phase is used on repairs, not pot-shots. Personally, a feel like the chance to get your wagon on the move again is better then taking a pot-shot with a bs 2 missile launcher, or throwing a puny small blast at some infantry squad. It's also cheaper, no? Seems like a better deal to me. Also, killkannons? ehhhh... no thanks. Its got the profile of an autocannon at half range and a large blast. So look at what you're getting there. A gunwagon is 130 points with just the killkannon. Throw a regular old kannon on to stop yourself from being useless on a weapon destroyed, along with plating and ard case if it's going to be a gunwagon, you have 175 points. That's more then a demo-russ right, and what do you get? 1 less side armor, 1 less back armor, a gun with same range, but three less strength and 2 less AP, and less guns on the move. You do get a transport capacity, but if it's a gunwagon, you probably arn't using it. You can also move faster, but that's wasted because you're firing that red-headed stepchild of the demo cannon. Baaad trade, if you ask me.

Anyone who has talked up gunwagons to me has gotten the "are you sure you've thought this, allll the way through?"
then they keep trying to talk up its pro's, but blatantly ignore the con's...

And agreed on the misinterpretations. Some yank posters give me a serious case of facepalm

Carnage43 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

dkellyj wrote:Tank-Bustas or flashGitz? Put em in a Trukk, move them asap into a fire base position, then shoot every up.
Wagons are to get a bunch of boyz or Gazzy and Nobs into Combat ASAP (and you ALWAYS take a KFF-Mech in one wagon for the cover-save bubble).
If you want to be tricksies, set a bunch of Burna-Boyz in the wagon. Nothing worse than having 15+ flamer templates roll up for 50+ auto-hits and 30+ wounds (or insta-deaths if your not MEQ)...AFTER the death-rolla just dropped a S10 smack on whatever unit it just rammed.

Neither flash gits, nor tank bustas can take a trukk. If you buy boyz to get that trukk, you could just as well get a battlewagon and a unit of gretchin for the same price.
Burnaz don't instant death anything besides gretchin.

In regards to the instant death comment. He didn't mean instant death as in S >= Double toughness, he meant "The burnas will drop so much damage it will annihilate anything in the game

He said its ID if your not MEQ. Yet its very very common knowledge that the burna wagon will vape TEQ's.
Also, he said dropping the templates after death rolling, but IIRC (probably not lol ) that's a ram/tank shock, and you cannot shoot after performing such an action...

You can't shoot after performing a Ram, but you still can after a tank shock provided you haven't gone more than 6" (7" w/ red paint)

The Kill Kannon is AP3 which is about the only thing in it's favour.

I'd keep battlewagons cheap w/ a single big shoota, red paint and a deffrolla. it's worked out well for me

Since this is the model I am building the Wagon from, anything less than a Kilkannon just strikes me as a crime against such an awesome turret

Buuut I am probably going to make the front plate removable so I can switch between the model's vanilla gun (Kannon-sized? Judge from the pic) and a Kilkannon.


But the arguments in here are ever-persuading me that it's just not competitive to use a gunwagon, but since I plan on either buying Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz next, I feel like it wouldn't be a massive crime. I'm going to get my hands on some kind of German SPG/Tank Destroyer to be my other Battlewagon. I just want to run a 'fun' treadhead list.

Carnage43 wrote:In regards to the instant death comment. He didn't mean instant death as in S >= Double toughness, he meant "The burnas will drop so much damage it will annihilate anything in the game"

Paladins, MANz, BA terminators with a priest, seer council, biker nobz and similar units tend to at least have some models left standing, if they don't shrug of the entire thing completely (paladins). High toughness units with few models also tend to be unimpressed by burna wagons.

Even clipping 3-4 models is enough to wipe out 30 man squads of boyz, termigants, blobs and 10 man squads of marines. It's extremely potent if you don't know what it can do.

It's even more potent if the opponent knows what it can do. You battlewagons are then safe from any close combat units whatsoever

Jihallah wrote:Anyone who has talked up gunwagons to me has gotten the "are you sure you've thought this, allll the way through?"
then they keep trying to talk up its pro's, but blatantly ignore the con's...

Well, it is good at killing infantry. But so is the entire ork codex, so you don't really need it.

He said its ID if your not MEQ. Yet its very very common knowledge that the burna wagon will vape TEQ's.
Also, he said dropping the templates after death rolling, but IIRC (probably not lol ) that's a ram/tank shock, and you cannot shoot after performing such an action...

The vehicle may not shoot after ramming, but there is no such limitation for the passengers. Actually, there are no special rules at all for tank-transports.