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I recently started playing a Dark Eldar Venom Spam build, and have had good success with it thus far.

I played a TAU gunline army last night, and lost pretty bad (still a fun game and cool opponent though). My normal tactics of pushing
for a heavy flank attack didn't work for 2 key reasons:
A - He outranged me with his broadsides and hammer head. He could also hit me with his missile pods.
B - He had a lot of marker lights, which completely took away the majority of my cover saves.

From reading tactics & strategy, the consensus is that most competitive IG builds are a bad matchup for DE. Does this also carry over for TAU?

Honestly, there seemed to be only 1 thing I could have done. Pushed everything forward to the center of the table, and
try to threaten multiple targets at the same time. Even with this strategy, it would have been really dicey. He had almost
everything meched up, and lot's of drones to absorb wounds on the suits.

Kinda like the Empire Gunline, some armies are just going to have a hard time. The only counter in 40k would be a DS but even then... Even worse for DE since your open topped.

The best way to deal with Tau has always been to go for the throat. You really need a few assault elements, that way as your mosquitos get shot down, at least you have a bigger threat incoming. Either way, DE venomspam can deal with tau pretty easily if played correctly. Pathfinders should always be priority no. 1!

Zid wrote:The best way to deal with Tau has always been to go for the throat. You really need a few assault elements, that way as your mosquitos get shot down, at least you have a bigger threat incoming. Either way, DE venomspam can deal with tau pretty easily if played correctly. Pathfinders should always be priority no. 1!

After re-thinking the situation, I would agree that some assault elements are necessary. I don't think that a pure, gun boat (non assault), venom spam army can easily take out a fully meched Tau gunline.
There is just not enough AT with 3 Ravagers, and with blasters you have to get within range of the entire gunline. Cover is relatively worthless against a good Tau player because of the marker lights. Marker lights
are very nasty, and are one of the reasons a good Tau army can often bend over Draigo Wing.

However, If you have a battle report, or anecdotal evidence, I would love to see it.

Shouldnt be too difficult if you have some wyches to tire up units.

a unit of wyches will kill just about anythign in the tau army it gets into combat. The trick is to get more than one unit into the assualt and let them grind. Even if they dont win it will take forever and while that is going on you can work over the rest of the army.

broadsides are nasty but really anything can take down paper planes. you just need to make sure each of your units does maximum damage before it dies.

I agree with Zid.

Though I'll note, versus Tau, regular Kabalite Warriors are a decent assault option.

And, yes, you should have pressed for the mid table. Tau are a long range army with some move-shoot-move capability. Dark Eldar are a mid range army with speed advantage. You want to cut out their mobility by utilizing your speed - the optimal place for a DE shooting army versus Tau is mid table for the shooting elements, because that way our larger numbers of units and overall greater amount of shooting can overcome their higher quality and longer range shooting. Just be careful about plopping next to Fire Warriors.

Also, FFs are an excellent defense versus Pathfinders removing your cover saves - they can't weaken an invulnerable save.

Thor665 wrote:

Also, FFs are an excellent defense versus Pathfinders removing your cover saves - they can't weaken an invulnerable save.

I didn't find the FF to be of much help against Tau. They are usually hitting each Venom or Ravager with multiple shots from the same unit, and each shot usually pens or glances.
A 5++ isn't enough against volume of fire. I think I made one 5++ FF save the entire battle.

I play Tau almost weekly. My buddy is a really great player and I just think its a bad match up for DE. A lot of railgun shots and a lot of medium strength shooting is bad news bears for our paper sailboats.

I had the same problem too, no, venom spam will not deal with the Tau easily. You may have room for a good assault unit but venom spam doesn't allow much for assault so a complete overhaul is in order. Overhaul your list and then you become less efficient at spamming against all the other armies.

Hate to say it but outflanking Mandrakes and WWP lists all seem like viable options against Tau but no way in heck am I going any further with that thought or suggest you tailor your list.

Kwi wrote:I had the same problem too, no, venom spam will not deal with the Tau easily. You may have room for a good assault unit but venom spam doesn't allow much for assault so a complete overhaul is in order. Overhaul your list and then you become less efficient at spamming against all the other armies.

Hate to say it but outflanking Mandrakes and WWP lists all seem like viable options against Tau but no way in heck am I going any further with that thought or suggest you tailor your list.

mandrakes, really?

WWP could work though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kairos wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Also, FFs are an excellent defense versus Pathfinders removing your cover saves - they can't weaken an invulnerable save.

I didn't find the FF to be of much help against Tau. They are usually hitting each Venom or Ravager with multiple shots from the same unit, and each shot usually pens or glances.
A 5++ isn't enough against volume of fire. I think I made one 5++ FF save the entire battle.

on average you should make 1/3 of your 5++ saves. if you play venom spam, you have 10 vehicles and each will take on average 2 hits to down. so if you made only 1 5++ save instead of a statistical 7 you were just unlucky. No army can beat bad luck.

Kwi wrote:I had the same problem too, no, venom spam will not deal with the Tau easily. You may have room for a good assault unit but venom spam doesn't allow much for assault so a complete overhaul is in order. Overhaul your list and then you become less efficient at spamming against all the other armies.

Hate to say it but outflanking Mandrakes and WWP lists all seem like viable options against Tau but no way in heck am I going any further with that thought or suggest you tailor your list.

Funny... I played against Mech'ed up Tau twice (diff opponent) with an "Unconventional Venom Spam List"

Hear me out... here's the gist of my list:
-Lady Mayls
-2 Haemy with WWP
-3x 3man blasterborns in venoms
-3x 5man warrirors + 1 blaster in venoms
-2x wych squad with trimmings in raiders
-3x Talos with HL and Chainflail

Maybe I should be a batrep together, but... I tabled both opponent by turn 4. (one opponent is a very good tourny player).

The Talos did some serious krumpping .

In the process of tweaking this list further... like replacing the 3x warriors unit with 3man wracks to save enough points to fit in a beast unit.

Anywho, I'm play GK and Tau soon... I'll try to remember to batrep it to see how this "Unconventional venom spam" works...

Kairos wrote:[I didn't find the FF to be of much help against Tau. They are usually hitting each Venom or Ravager with multiple shots from the same unit, and each shot usually pens or glances.
A 5++ isn't enough against volume of fire. I think I made one 5++ FF save the entire battle.

They work wonders versus rail gun fire. Both Broadsides and Hammerheads are hit hard by FF saves. What isn't is Fire Warrior shooting, and Crisis Suit Squads, but by the time you're close enough for their to be massed fire then you should be close enough for your army to start exerting its own will. If you can't exert your own will through that type of fire then I think the problem lies not in the matchup but rather in the overall tactical decisions you're making during the matchup. You may need to analyze your fire priority if things you need to die aren't dying, or perhaps check your placement method if too much of your army is exposed to dangerous enemy shooting.

I honestly think, right now, Tau are a very favorable matchup for DE in the competitive scene.

Given that most Tau lists I see utilize minimum FW squads, their greatest weakness is their overreliance on Crisis suits. CS can JSJ, but that isn't fast enough to take them away from Wyches. Two squads of them in your army will handily take out any CS in the area. If your opponant is targeting Wyches, hey aren't targeting the rest of your army, which should allow you to manuver on the Broadsides.

The odd are in your favor that Venom shooting alone should drop a Broadside and a half a turn (And, with the high rate of fire you will begin to attrit Shield drones as well if taken) if you are going with a 9 venom list. Let the Venoms Torrent the drones to death, then open up with the Lances and that should be the end of the Broadsides in a very short time. The broadsides are more worrysome than Hammerheads, generally speaking.

Nagashek wrote:Given that most Tau lists I see utilize minimum FW squads, their greatest weakness is their overreliance on Crisis suits. CS can JSJ, but that isn't fast enough to take them away from Wyches. Two squads of them in your army will handily take out any CS in the area. If your opponant is targeting Wyches, hey aren't targeting the rest of your army, which should allow you to manuver on the Broadsides.

The odd are in your favor that Venom shooting alone should drop a Broadside and a half a turn (And, with the high rate of fire you will begin to attrit Shield drones as well if taken) if you are going with a 9 venom list. Let the Venoms Torrent the drones to death, then open up with the Lances and that should be the end of the Broadsides in a very short time. The broadsides are more worrysome than Hammerheads, generally speaking.

A good Tau player will typically keep his broadsides at the very edge of the table, because the railguns have a 72" range. That means in order to bring blasters to bear upon them, you need to be up
in their face. Splinter Cannons are not very effective against Broad Sides with a bunch of drones, as they are saving on 2+.

I believe (and I am not an expert DE player, but a very experienced 40K player) that the only way DE can deal with Tau is to move aggressively forward right into their lines.
The typical move up a flank and try to focus fire your army on a section of the opponents army doesn't work against Tau. You absolutely can't hang back and trade shots with them.

I play only 2 armies, Tau and DE.....

Most Xv8 suits run a MP so you pretty screwed as Tau anti Light Mech is insane.

Like others have said the only way to deal with Tau really is to rush in and just start chewing them up in h2h... You will rarely outshoot them with venom spam as the Venoms dont hit heavy enough.

Kairos wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Given that most Tau lists I see utilize minimum FW squads, their greatest weakness is their overreliance on Crisis suits. CS can JSJ, but that isn't fast enough to take them away from Wyches. Two squads of them in your army will handily take out any CS in the area. If your opponant is targeting Wyches, hey aren't targeting the rest of your army, which should allow you to manuver on the Broadsides.

The odd are in your favor that Venom shooting alone should drop a Broadside and a half a turn (And, with the high rate of fire you will begin to attrit Shield drones as well if taken) if you are going with a 9 venom list. Let the Venoms Torrent the drones to death, then open up with the Lances and that should be the end of the Broadsides in a very short time. The broadsides are more worrysome than Hammerheads, generally speaking.

A good Tau player will typically keep his broadsides at the very edge of the table, because the railguns have a 72" range. That means in order to bring blasters to bear upon them, you need to be up
in their face. Splinter Cannons are not very effective against Broad Sides with a bunch of drones, as they are saving on 2+.

I believe (and I am not an expert DE player, but a very experienced 40K player) that the only way DE can deal with Tau is to move aggressively forward right into their lines.
The typical move up a flank and try to focus fire your army on a section of the opponents army doesn't work against Tau. You absolutely can't hang back and trade shots with them.

Emphasis mine. How many drones does the average Tau player bring per unit of Broadsides? 2? 4? Once Venoms open up on a unit of broadsides, hits have to start getting allocated to Drones. Once Drones have to start taking saves, they die. With the drones gone, the Lances evaporate the broadsides. Between the Venoms and the Ravagers, you have many, many shots at 36". I don't recommend hanging back usually, but if it is needed to play the terrain isolation game, then do that. 72" accounts for nothing if they can not see you. Even if your blasters are out of range as you move up, hugging terrain, your Venoms are stripping away drones.

Nagashek wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Given that most Tau lists I see utilize minimum FW squads, their greatest weakness is their overreliance on Crisis suits. CS can JSJ, but that isn't fast enough to take them away from Wyches. Two squads of them in your army will handily take out any CS in the area. If your opponant is targeting Wyches, hey aren't targeting the rest of your army, which should allow you to manuver on the Broadsides.

The odd are in your favor that Venom shooting alone should drop a Broadside and a half a turn (And, with the high rate of fire you will begin to attrit Shield drones as well if taken) if you are going with a 9 venom list. Let the Venoms Torrent the drones to death, then open up with the Lances and that should be the end of the Broadsides in a very short time. The broadsides are more worrysome than Hammerheads, generally speaking.

A good Tau player will typically keep his broadsides at the very edge of the table, because the railguns have a 72" range. That means in order to bring blasters to bear upon them, you need to be up
in their face. Splinter Cannons are not very effective against Broad Sides with a bunch of drones, as they are saving on 2+.

I believe (and I am not an expert DE player, but a very experienced 40K player) that the only way DE can deal with Tau is to move aggressively forward right into their lines.
The typical move up a flank and try to focus fire your army on a section of the opponents army doesn't work against Tau. You absolutely can't hang back and trade shots with them.

Emphasis mine. How many drones does the average Tau player bring per unit of Broadsides? 2? 4? Once Venoms open up on a unit of broadsides, hits have to start getting allocated to Drones. Once Drones have to start taking saves, they die. With the drones gone, the Lances evaporate the broadsides. Between the Venoms and the Ravagers, you have many, many shots at 36". I don't recommend hanging back usually, but if it is needed to play the terrain isolation game, then do that. 72" accounts for nothing if they can not see you. Even if your blasters are out of range as you move up, hugging terrain, your Venoms are stripping away drones.

" but if it is needed to play the terrain isolation game"

This only works if there is a lot of LOS Blocking terrain on the table. Since 5th is a true LOS system, all they have to do is see a fraction of your model and they can shoot.
Area terrain and cover saves are largely useless against Tau, because of the marker lights.

There aren't that many Marker lights. Tau have to pick and choose what looses a cover save and what gets a pass. If you have FF's on your vehicle (and OF COURSE you do) then it doesn't matter. The best they can do is change a 4 to a 5. Pathfinders won't last the first turn if you are targeting them. The other sources of Marker lights are sketchy at best. It takes multiple hits for Markerlights to start being deadly, and despite the overwhelming and unfounded love of the sky ray, there aren't enough markerlight shots in most tau armies.

If the markerlights give you pause, then kill them. In most instances they don't do enough to you to justify the effort. Wipe out what they are supporting and they are worthless. If they can see something to kill you, then pour fire into them until they are dead. It will be quick.

Nagashek wrote:There aren't that many Marker lights. Tau have to pick and choose what looses a cover save and what gets a pass. If you have FF's on your vehicle (and OF COURSE you do) then it doesn't matter. The best they can do is change a 4 to a 5. Pathfinders won't last the first turn if you are targeting them. The other sources of Marker lights are sketchy at best. It takes multiple hits for Markerlights to start being deadly, and despite the overwhelming and unfounded love of the sky ray, there aren't enough markerlight shots in most tau armies.

If the markerlights give you pause, then kill them. In most instances they don't do enough to you to justify the effort. Wipe out what they are supporting and they are worthless. If they can see something to kill you, then pour fire into them until they are dead. It will be quick.

My local venue is encouraging Forgeworld Models and Rules. The Tau player's are running Tetra's

If you are focus firing on Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, and Tetras, you aren't doing enough damage to Hammerheads, Broadsides, and Crisis Suits.

It is a bad matchup for Dark Eldar. Winnable, but a bad matchup.

Eh, I'd be pretty happy if they filled up their FA Slots with Tetras.

I'd advise ignoring the markerlights. They're not a big issue for DE.

what else do Tau player take for their FA slot? I can think of only Piranhas... At least thats all I take....


FA slot for Tau is weak. Tetras are the best option by a landslide... expecially now they are H4 MarkerLights.

Piranhas are quite good vs. DE though.
Marker Lights aren't.
I'd rather see Tetras if I'm playing DE.

Kairos wrote:
A good Tau player will typically keep his broadsides at the very edge of the table, because the railguns have a 72" range. That means in order to bring blasters to bear upon them, you need to be up
in their face. Splinter Cannons are not very effective against Broad Sides with a bunch of drones, as they are saving on 2+.

I believe (and I am not an expert DE player, but a very experienced 40K player) that the only way DE can deal with Tau is to move aggressively forward right into their lines.
The typical move up a flank and try to focus fire your army on a section of the opponents army doesn't work against Tau. You absolutely can't hang back and trade shots with them.

Blasters sure, but DL have 36" range which covers most situations. Splinter cannons have the volume to take out things with 2+ saves.

Even with a 2+ save each Venom is likely to cause one wound when firing on a squad. And with Tau not likely having many foot squads it is highly functional to torrent Venom fire into Broadsides and Crisis Suits regardless of their saves.