Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
A paralysed man who wants a doctor to be able to lawfully end his life can proceed with his "right-to-die" case, a High Court judge has ruled.
Tony Nicklinson, 58, from Melksham, Wiltshire, has "locked-in syndrome" following a stroke in 2005 and is unable to carry out his own suicide.
He is seeking legal protection for any doctor who helps him end his life.
The Ministry of Justice argues making such a ruling would authorise murder and change the law governing it.
"Locked-in syndrome" leaves people with paralysed bodies but fully-functioning minds.
The judge's ruling now means that Mr Nicklinson's case will go to a full hearing, where medical evidence can be heard.
Following the judge's ruling that his case can proceed, Mr Nicklinson's wife Jane read out a statement from her husband on BBC 5live.
It said: "I'm delighted that the issues surrounding assisted dying are to be aired in court. Politicians and others can hardly complain with the courts providing the forum for debate if the politicians continue to ignore one of the most important topics facing our society today.
"It's no longer acceptable for 21st Century medicine to be governed by 20th Century attitudes to death."
'Stressful' wait
Mr Nicklinson, who communicates through the use of an electronic board or special computer, said before the ruling that his life was "dull, miserable, demeaning, undignified and intolerable".
During the radio interview, Mrs Nicklinson passed on questions to her husband, using his letters board to spell out his response.
Continue reading the main story
Analysis
Clive Coleman
Tony Nicklinson's case goes to the heart of the conflict between the sanctity of life and an individual's right to self-determination in ending it.
The law currently draws a crucial distinction between doctors deciding not to provide or continue treatment, which might prolong life, and acting to end a life, by for example administering lethal drugs.
Whilst the former may be lawful, the latter is murder and Mr Justice Charles said Mr Nicklinson was inviting the court to "cross the rubicon".
Mr Nicklinson's case is not one of assisted suicide, like that of the multiple sclerosis sufferer Debbie Purdy who won a clarification of prosecuting policy where a loved one assists a person to die.
His paralysis is so severe that he cannot be assisted in taking his own life, for instance by swallowing lethal drugs. He would have to be killed by someone else.
He is seeking a court declaration that a doctor who ended his life would have a defence of "necessity" to any murder charge.
"Necessity" was argued in the case of two conjoined twins when doctors, faced with the choice of losing two lives or saving one, separated the pair.
Mr Nicklinson's case is a leap on from there. Here doctors would be acting to end a single life. That would open the way to voluntary active euthanasia, and is a step too far for many.
When asked what he hoped would happen next, he replied: "I will be able to access a doctor when the time is right."
He went on to spell out: "I can just about cope with life at the moment, but not forever."
Mrs Nicklinson said she was "really pleased" with the judge's decision. "It's been quite stressful waiting for this decision.
"It's really good to know that the judge thinks that we have a case that needs to be argued."
Earlier, Mrs Nicklinson said that her husband "just wants to know that, when the time comes, he has a way out".
"If you knew the kind of person that he was before, life like this is unbearable for him," she added.
She said she did not know when her husband might actually want to die. "I suppose just when he can't take it any more," she said.
Mr Nicklinson has two grown-up daughters and had his stroke while on a business trip to Athens.
The High Court heard Mr Nicklinson's first statement in the proceedings, in which he said his stroke "left me paralysed below the neck and unable to speak. I need help in almost every aspect of my life."
"I cannot scratch if I itch, I cannot pick my nose if it is blocked and I can only eat if I am fed like a baby - only I won't grow out of it, unlike the baby.
"I have no privacy or dignity left. I am washed, dressed and put to bed by carers who are, after all, still strangers.
"Am I grateful that the Athens doctors saved my life? No, I am not. If I had my time again, and knew then what I know now, I would not have called the ambulance but let nature take its course."
Continue reading the main story
Locked-in syndrome
Condition in which patient is mute and totally paralysed, except for eye movements, but remains conscious
Usually results from massive haemorrhage or other damage
Affects upper part of brain stem, which destroys almost all motor function but leaves the higher mental functions intact
His legal action was launched to seek court declarations that a doctor could intervene to end his "indignity" and have a "common law defence of necessity" against any murder charge.
But David Perry QC, representing the Ministry of Justice, told the High Court that Mr Nicklinson "is saying the court should positively authorise and permit as lawful the deliberate taking of his life".
He added: "That is not, and cannot be, the law of England and Wales unless Parliament were to say otherwise."
Following his ruling at the High Court, Mr Justice Charles said the case's issues "raise questions that have great social, ethical and religious significance and they are questions on which widely differing beliefs and views are held, often strongly".
Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
This is a case which is likely to go further, which is likely to end up in the Supreme Court one way or another, before the law is changed”
End Quote
Saimo Chahl
Solicitor for Tony Nicklinson
He said the issues before him only related to whether Mr Nicklinson's arguments "have any real prospect of success or whether there is some other compelling reason why these proceedings should be tried".
Mr Nicklinson's solicitor, Saimo Chahl, said the next step was for the courts to examine "in great detail what the individual circumstances of the case are before authorising any steps to be taken".
"It would all be extremely carefully controlled and vetted before any doctor were given permission - were we to be successful.
"And you have to bear in mind actually that this is a case which is likely to go further, which is likely to end up in the Supreme Court one way or another, before the law is changed."
"Right-to-die" campaigner Debbie Purdy, who has severe multiple sclerosis, said Mr Nicklinson was an intelligent, vibrant man who should be able to make his own choices.
She said he was not asking to die "tomorrow" but to improve the quality of the life he's living at the moment by "knowing that if it becomes too much for him, he will be able to... to end it".
BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman said the case went beyond assisted suicide as Mr Nicklinson's paralysis is so severe it would prevent him from receiving assistance to kill himself and he would have to be killed - and that would amount to murder.
He said Mr Nicklinson was seeking a court declaration based on his right to respect for private life under Article 8 of the Human Rights Convention - in effect saying that in his circumstances, his right to life included the right to end his life in a humane manner of his choosing.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Both my parents are disabled, my mother critically so - she has the same condition as my aunt, who died recently, a degenerative motor neurone disease, so this is an issue close to my heart.
As my aunt got worse and worse, she looked into some of the options for assisted suicide, such as they are at the moment and decided the risk to others was too great. She managed to check out by refusing her insulin (and as she had actively requested to not be given it against her will the Doctors and medical staff had to comply with that decision). I don't think it was the easiest or most pain free way to go but it was the only way given that she couldn't do anything for herself, was nearly blind and deaf and incredibly difficult to understand what she was saying.
My mother has the same disease and is going the same way - she has recently discussed it with others. I hope the law is changed to allow people a little dignity in death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/13 13:55:08
It is a source of constant amazement to me that we allow people to suffer in a manner that would lead to prosecution if a pet dog was left that way.
If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++
filbert wrote:Both my parents are disabled, my mother critically so - she has the same condition as my aunt, who died recently, a degenerative motor neurone disease, so this is an issue close to my heart.
As my aunt got worse and worse, she looked into some of the options for assisted suicide, such as they are at the moment and decided the risk to others was too great. She managed to check out by refusing her insulin (and as she had actively requested to not be given it against her will the Doctors and medical staff had to comply with that decision). I don't think it was the easiest or most pain free way to go but it was the only way given that she couldn't do anything for herself, was nearly blind and deaf and incredibly difficult to understand what she was saying.
My mother has the same disease and is going the same way - she has recently discussed it with others. I hope the law is changed to allow people a little dignity in death.
Agreed. I'll just note that dying from cancer can be a real bad way to go. For a week I carried enough painkillers take down an elaphant for Mom if she wanted, but by the time she quit fighting she couldn't swallow. Bad scene.
Since my chances of happy fun time with cancer are righteously high I've already told the wife that when I get that progrnosis, I'm taking whatever dogs we have for a walk, and then me and Mr. Smith and Wesson are going for a drive in the country. I don't think she believes me, which is good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/13 14:33:13
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
filbert wrote:Both my parents are disabled, my mother critically so - she has the same condition as my aunt, who died recently, a degenerative motor neurone disease, so this is an issue close to my heart.
As my aunt got worse and worse, she looked into some of the options for assisted suicide, such as they are at the moment and decided the risk to others was too great. She managed to check out by refusing her insulin (and as she had actively requested to not be given it against her will the Doctors and medical staff had to comply with that decision). I don't think it was the easiest or most pain free way to go but it was the only way given that she couldn't do anything for herself, was nearly blind and deaf and incredibly difficult to understand what she was saying.
My mother has the same disease and is going the same way - she has recently discussed it with others. I hope the law is changed to allow people a little dignity in death.
Sympathies, filbert
I agree though. I like this quote:
"It's no longer acceptable for 21st Century medicine to be governed by 20th Century attitudes to death."
If someone wants to die with dignity, rather than living the rest of their life hopped up with meds, they should have the right to.
Heck. I think people with terminal illnesses should be able to do whatever drugs they want to too. I can imagine nothing better than laying around a hospital tripping acid all day. Get a little bit of fun out of what you have left...
filbert wrote:Both my parents are disabled, my mother critically so - she has the same condition as my aunt, who died recently, a degenerative motor neurone disease, so this is an issue close to my heart.
As my aunt got worse and worse, she looked into some of the options for assisted suicide, such as they are at the moment and decided the risk to others was too great. She managed to check out by refusing her insulin (and as she had actively requested to not be given it against her will the Doctors and medical staff had to comply with that decision). I don't think it was the easiest or most pain free way to go but it was the only way given that she couldn't do anything for herself, was nearly blind and deaf and incredibly difficult to understand what she was saying.
My mother has the same disease and is going the same way - she has recently discussed it with others. I hope the law is changed to allow people a little dignity in death.
Sorry to hear this Filbert, yes I agree when someone is clearly suffering and are drawing close to death. Aid should be given to grant them an escape from the pain & suffering, I think we all can relate to such requests
Please note that the gentleman in question is legally allowed to take his own life, it's others assisting him that is the legal issue. A couple of people didn't seem to be getting that.
It's my personal view that suicide should be legally available on the NHS for anyone who wants it. That's not a view held by many, but it makes perfect sense to me.
There are obvious worries that people will feel pressured into it by family, or because they feel they are a burden. There's also the problem that people might not be in their right mind to make a decision, would you let someone who is physically ill but suffering severe depression opt for suicide on the NHS?
But on most counts, if you seem to be able to take the decision fairly and are suffering so, then you should be able to end your life. The issue is people helping you and I think it's disgraceful that the government continually cloud this issue making it a grey area.
Several people have 'helped' a person commit suicide by assisting them on a one way trip to Switzerland and been met by the police on the way back. They get questioned and put under stress, but are not charged meaning the legality of this is never put to the test. They won't make assistance legal but won't prosecute those doing it which would set a precedent. Meaning that many are reticent to assist because of the uncertainty involved regarding legal action. Is that really how the law should work?
Howard A Treesong wrote:There are obvious worries that people will feel pressured into it by family, or because they feel they are a burden. There's also the problem that people might not be in their right mind to make a decision, would you let someone who is physically ill but suffering severe depression opt for suicide on the NHS?
Yes. To reiterate, I would make suicide available on the NHS to anyone who wanted it, even the perfectly healthy.
It is a British style of compromise, meaning it certainly isn't clearcut but it leaves useful wiggle room for either side.
In general, the UK police do not have jurisdiction to prosecute something done overseas which is a crime here but not in the other country.
Obviously it allows the police possibly to make a case that someone abducted an unwilling relative to Switzerland in order to do away with them, if such a thing should happen.
I dont think the person mentiuoned by the OP will get his way frankly.
The British courts are reluctant to allow people to travel to Swiss clinics, let alone commit suicide at home, let alone get someone else to do this.
Even in Switzerland the patient needs to initiate the termination.
This is going to be difficult.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Albatross wrote:Please note that the gentleman in question is legally allowed to take his own life, it's others assisting him that is the legal issue. A couple of people didn't seem to be getting that.
It's my personal view that suicide should be legally available on the NHS for anyone who wants it. That's not a view held by many, but it makes perfect sense to me.
works for me
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Interestingly, the BBC had a segment this morning with a woman who had also suffered from the same 'locked-in' syndrome after a stroke, only she made a full recovery. It seemed to me that the BBC were trying to set-up a particular response - I don't know what the term in debating is for it - maybe a comparative fallacy? Anyway, the piece was essentially set up to say 'look this woman recovered from it so if she was fine, then anyone else could be fine therefore shouldn't be allowed to terminate their life'. It was full of stuff about how the doctors had said she would never walk or talk again etc; pretty much laying on the schmaltz. Of course, this was ruined by the woman herself who said she had made the decision that she wanted to die after a couple of weeks (she was only fully paralysed for 16 weeks in total), which begs the question, if she felt that way after a comparatively short period of time, how does the chap in the OP feel given that he has been under for 7 years? It kind of undermined the point the BBC were trying to present, I felt.
As an aside, my aunt who I mentioned earlier looked into visiting the Dignitas clinic. A stumbling block was of course getting there and ensuring that whoever accompanied her remained free from prosecution on return but a large stumbling block was the cost - it's bloody expensive!
Poppabear wrote:Doesent matter how I go. As long as I go out to "Aint no grave gunna hold my body down" I'll be happy
You're a Crooked Still fan then? Good band.
I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I would like to allow people dignity in dying, but I can also see how making assisted suicide legal could cause other problems, such as people feeling pressured into it so as not to be a burden to their families. Its a tough call.
Im with the majority. I think if someone is in a position like the OP mentioned, then they should be allowed the option to push a button/plunger/whatever, and go to sleep forever. It doesnt seem fair that people have to endure that kind of torture.
Frazzled wrote:
Agreed. I'll just note that dying from cancer can be a real bad way to go. For a week I carried enough painkillers take down an elaphant for Mom if she wanted, but by the time she quit fighting she couldn't swallow. Bad scene.
Since my chances of happy fun time with cancer are righteously high I've already told the wife that when I get that progrnosis, I'm taking whatever dogs we have for a walk, and then me and Mr. Smith and Wesson are going for a drive in the country. I don't think she believes me, which is good.
Couldn't agree with you more. Having seen my Grandad die from throat cancer, and my stepdad dying from Parkinsons disease (before a heart attack did the trick), and having seen the suffering they went through, I know full well that isn't something I'd want to go through anytime.
Also having seen the pressure & stress caused to carers, I would also want to spare them that.
I also find it crazy that we can be prosecuted for allowing animals to suffer needlesly, but when it comes to humans, we feel the need to extend suffering as long as possible.
Fighting on with dignity,
In life and death we deal,
The power and the majesty,
Amidst the blood and steel.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I have never met a person who isn't Religiously motivated who is dead set against assisted death. Sure some people involved in hospice and palliative care feel strongly about it, but they have nothing like the gusto of my pals in Churches. The will to utterly impose a law against you so you can never be master of your own destiny.
My mother rotted to death with cancer, she turned yellow, lost about 5 stone, and basically looked like gak for about 6 months, she looked even worse than I did after I drank two litres of whisky for a bet and woke up in a Dumpster at the back of a bowling alley.
If a person wants to die, the only person that should have a say in the matter is the fething person who is going to be doing the dying, and their partner, and possibly the kids if they are old enough.
No fether else.
It was probably this one subject that got me so pissed off with militant Religious dickheads trying to impose their will upon me that I got so angry with Theists in the first place.
And then I read all about female circumcision, gay rights, rampant sexism and covert paeodophilia, and the icing on the cake... DRY COUNTIES!!
And went to town.
Oh yeah and forcing rape victims to bare the children of their loving caring, dark alley attackers. I forgot about that one because I was so angry about the dry counties thing..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/14 17:06:59
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote: I have never met a person who isn't Religiously motivated who is dead set against assisted death. Sure some people involved in hospice and palliative care feel strongly about it, but they have nothing like the gusto of my pals in Churches. The will to utterly impose a law against you so you can never be master of your own destiny.
My mother rotted to death with cancer, she turned yellow, lost about 5 stone, and basically looked like gak for about 6 months, she looked even worse than I did after I drank two litres of whisky for a bet and woke up in a Dumpster at the back of a bowling alley.
If a person wants to die, the only person that should have a say in the matter is the fething person who is going to be doing the dying, and their partner, and possibly the kids if they are old enough.
No fether else.
It was probably this one subject that got me so pissed off with militant Religious dickheads trying to impose their will upon me that I got so angry with Theists in the first place.
And then I read all about female circumcision, gay rights, rampant sexism and covert paeodophilia, and the icing on the cake... DRY COUNTIES!!
And went to town.
Oh yeah and forcing rape victims to bare the children of their loving caring, dark alley attackers. I forgot about that one because I was so angry about the dry counties thing..
As noted I think the real difficult is not that, but what is termed here "assisted suicide." Thats where it gets twitchy. What if they want to but can't themselves. Do the doctors then have to which violates their Hypo oath (or potentially, vets do it all the time)? How does that work?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote:
As noted I think the real difficult is not that, but what is termed here "assisted suicide." Thats where it gets twitchy. What if they want to but can't themselves. Do the doctors then have to which violates their Hypo oath (or potentially, vets do it all the time)? How does that work?
Terry Pratchett made a TV show all about it Frazz, its worth a google anyway even if your not a fan of his stuff.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Frazzled wrote:
As noted I think the real difficult is not that, but what is termed here "assisted suicide." Thats where it gets twitchy. What if they want to but can't themselves. Do the doctors then have to which violates their Hypo oath (or potentially, vets do it all the time)? How does that work?
The Hippocratic Oath isn't all its cracked up to be. There are many versions, and what constitutes "life" is very flexible.
I think, primarily, the moral hazard of the issue is predicated on two issues.
First, the power of the assisting party. This is much like the problem of care-givers siphoning money from their charges.
Second, the sincerity of the person wishing to die. If we allow assisted suicide, then surely the issue of everyday ordinary suicide becomes murkier than it already is.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I think this should work like the DNR (do not resuscitate) orders some folk put in their medical files. Something like 'In the event of serious injury or illness resulting in my complete dependance, please cancel my subscription to life. Death would be preferable to continued suffering.' should work. Get it witnessed by a lawyer/solicitor and specify the conditions which would trigger the euthanasia, somewhat like a will but sort of backwards.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and erase all doubt. 4000pts Steel Talons
Blackskullandy wrote:I think this should work like the DNR (do not resuscitate) orders some folk put in their medical files. Something like 'In the event of serious injury or illness resulting in my complete dependance, please cancel my subscription to life. Death would be preferable to continued suffering.' should work. Get it witnessed by a lawyer/solicitor and specify the conditions which would trigger the euthanasia, somewhat like a will but sort of backwards.
Agreed, but who does the euthanasia?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Elysian Drop Troops 1500pts
Renegades & Heretics 2056pts
4000pts Steel Talons