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Recently I've been running a Trygon to try and compensate for my armies low anti tank count. The idea was to spring up out of the ground blazing guns all the way before sweeping in to tickle the vehicle to death. Whilst a sound plan, it never works. The Trygon bursts up, fails most of his shots then dies in a hail of bullets.
I've been trying to think of a substitute for him but all I could think of is a Carnifex with HVC and maybe devourers, unfortunately everyone on the Internet tells me the carnifex is a big ole waste o' time. This coupled with the fact I run a Null deployment list meaning he needs a Mycetic spore to drop him in has left me wondering, what should I use?
Oh and before anyone says it, I already run a deuce of Zoanthrope in a spore and Hive guard and Tyrannofex can’t DS so they're out.
Cheers
"Spare points?! By that I assume you mean more Genestealers..."
fex`s are not a TOTAL waste of time but you have to be smart to get your points out of them. I`ve ran one for a while now and he does me well. HVC all the way.
My list is a horde list, so he does have some company but if you get him a pod youre laughing.
What points are you running and what does the rest of your list look like? Generally speaking, a single trygon (even moreso a single fex) is not going to last long under pretty much most circumstances. You need to either have multiples of them, have enough things that draw the same type of fire, or have other means of supporting/protecting them.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
Bluetau wrote:Have you considered stealers to deal with light armor?
The rending claws can be pretty useful against AV 10-12
I currently run about 30 genestealers with a Broodlord amongst them, they do well but unless I roll a six to hit then rend with a six the vehicle (as a rule raiders or ravagers) naff off before I get another swing.
Maelstrom808 wrote:What points are you running and what does the rest of your list look like? Generally speaking, a single trygon (even moreso a single fex) is not going to last long under pretty much most circumstances. You need to either have multiples of them, have enough things that draw the same type of fire, or have other means of supporting/protecting them.
Drop the Scything Talons off the stealers (really not worth the points), Toxic Miasma from the Hive Tyrant, Venom Cannons from the spores, (this is the contreversial one) drop the Broodlord because he's not worth his points usually, and you can pick up 2 Trygons with AG and put AG on the Hive Tyrant...
Spoiler:
+++ No Name (1500pts) +++
+++ 0pt Tyranids 5th Ed (2010) Roster (Standard) +++
Selections:
+ HQ +
* Hive Tyrant
(Psyker, Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature)
Bonded Exoskeleton, Hive Commander, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Leech Essence, Paroxysm, Twin-linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
+ Elites +
* Doom Brood
* The Doom of Malan'tai
(Absorb Life, Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Psychic Strength, Psyker, Shadow in the Warp, Spirit Leach, Warp Field)
Cataclysm, Claws and Teeth, Reinforced Chitin
* Mycetic Spore
(Deep Strike, Fearless, Immobile Pod, Limited Sentience, Transport Spore)
Hardened Carapace, Lash Whip, Ripper Tentacles
Doom is just too easy to insta kill. Zoeys are still insta kill bait but with buying them 2 for 1 compared to the Doom it mitigates that a little, and you don't have to worry about getting them within 6 inches of another infantry unit for them to do their job.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
Another option would be to drop all the zoeys, pick up a 10 man unit of Ymgarls, and put Prime on both of the Trygons.
"But then there's no AT!!!" Hear me out...
The Ymgarl's can glance AV 14 every other turn, your entire army will either be a Synapse creature or not care about Synapse (well... the lack of Fearless might hurt), and you've got some decent shooting when the Trygons drop in (12 Str5 shots isn't anything to laugh at) and if you really need to kill that Land Raider dead you've got 3 highly mobile MCs.
It'd be interesting anyway.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
rigeld2 wrote:Drop the Scything Talons off the stealers (really not worth the points), Toxic Miasma from the Hive Tyrant, Venom Cannons from the spores, (this is the contreversial one) drop the Broodlord because he's not worth his points usually, and you can pick up 2 Trygons with AG and put AG on the Hive Tyrant...
....
I was tempted to try something else on the Spores, they're main problem is the whole "Shoots at the closest unit" thing, so unless it sits on a tank it wont shoot it.
The Toxic Miasma on the Tyrant is really just a gimmick, he tends to get warmed by DE and Orks who generally die en masse once touching him.
Would two Trygons be preferable? I'm willing to give it a try but at the moment one pops up and just dies, I'd hate to think that another one would go the same.
Maelstrom808 wrote:Pretty much what rigeld2 said in keeping with the spirit of your lists as much as possible. Personally, I'd do something like this:
Hive Tyrant - Hive Commander, Wings, LE, Paro, LW/BS, TLDevs
2x Zoanthrope - Spore Pod
2x Zoanthrope - Spore Pod
Doom is just too easy to insta kill. Zoeys are still insta kill bait but with buying them 2 for 1 compared to the Doom it mitigates that a little, and you don't have to worry about getting them within 6 inches of another infantry unit for them to do their job.
More Zoans could works better, the Doom is in at the moment to fend off the green tide, also it scares the living hell out of almost everyone. With a 3++ save sometimes he's work it just as a bullet magnet .
rigeld2 wrote:Another option would be to drop all the zoeys, pick up a 10 man unit of Ymgarls, and put Prime on both of the Trygons.
"But then there's no AT!!!" Hear me out...
The Ymgarl's can glance AV 14 every other turn, your entire army will either be a Synapse creature or not care about Synapse (well... the lack of Fearless might hurt), and you've got some decent shooting when the Trygons drop in (12 Str5 shots isn't anything to laugh at) and if you really need to kill that Land Raider dead you've got 3 highly mobile MCs.
It'd be interesting anyway.
I've had fun with the Ygmarls before. Having that 4+ save instead of the normal 5+ genestealer just doubles they're survivability. Unfortunately they have trouble finding somewhere to hide and seem to die to so many bullets
So does no one really like the Carnifex? So far Tygons are winning.....
"Spare points?! By that I assume you mean more Genestealers..."
Lord Lumpy wrote:So does no one really like the Carnifex? So far Tygons are winning.....
In a null deployment list you can't use the coolest thing about Carnifexes. The fact they're a brood.
Attaching a Prime to a Carnifex to get a cover save (or two primes to two Carnifexes) is fun. Can't do that if you take a spore. For speed, Trygon. For null delpoyment, Trygon. For fun (for me), Carnifex.
But I hate the Trygon model, so I won't ever field one if I can help it.
edit:
I've had fun with the Ygmarls before. Having that 4+ save instead of the normal 5+ genestealer just doubles they're survivability. Unfortunately they have trouble finding somewhere to hide and seem to die to so many bullets
If your Ymgarl's aren't locked in CC the turn they come in, you're doing something wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/20 14:46:39
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Lord Lumpy wrote:So does no one really like the Carnifex? So far Tygons are winning.....
In a null deployment list you can't use the coolest thing about Carnifexes. The fact they're a brood.
Attaching a Prime to a Carnifex to get a cover save (or two primes to two Carnifexes) is fun. Can't do that if you take a spore.
For speed, Trygon. For null delpoyment, Trygon.
For fun (for me), Carnifex.
True, I've heard this tactic somewhere before. If I ever deviate from Null Deploy' I'll give this a go....
As for the Trygon I'm going to proxy the living hell out of another one with a toilet roll.
rigeld2 wrote:
edit:
I've had fun with the Ygmarls before. Having that 4+ save instead of the normal 5+ genestealer just doubles they're survivability. Unfortunately they have trouble finding somewhere to hide and seem to die to so many bullets
If your Ymgarl's aren't locked in CC the turn they come in, you're doing something wrong.
Oh they get that CC, but if they win they die next turn and if they don't kill it it drives away. Against troops they do alot better though.
"Spare points?! By that I assume you mean more Genestealers..."
Lord Lumpy wrote:Oh they get that CC, but if they win they die next turn and if they don't kill it it drives away. Against troops they do alot better though.
Yeah, if you charge something easy to kill, or that isn't worth many points, it'll get depressing...
But multicharging two units of Long Fangs, helping with the charge on a unit of assault termies...
There's all kinds of fun to be had with them.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
The trick with Trygons is to footslog them across the field with a Venomthrope (for the cover save) and a Tervigon (for FNP) following them to keep them alive.
The answers to tanks in the 'Nid list are deep-striking Zoanthropes or Monstrous Creatures, Hive Guard, and heavy venom cannons. Rupture Cannons are decent, but they can only be taken on Tyrannofexes, which seems like a lot of points for one gun.
i think trygons are like landraiders... 1 will die, 2 probally, but not right away and will do some damage... 3 on the other hand will mess up the enemy and live for frigging ever.
i think the prime upgrade is well worth it. simply for the increase in firepower. my 2000pt list features 3 trygon primes. not sure how effective it is yet... ive only had a few games, but so far its promising. especially since i run a pair of tervigons, and a flyrant with gargoyles. (also a trio of raveners to help with the DS thing)
never tried a tyrannofex... whats the "proper" way to run one?
DarthSpader wrote:never tried a tyrannofex... whats the "proper" way to run one?
He's huge. Put him in front of the rest of your army (for the cover saves) and ram him down your opponents throat.
In a world where melta grows on trees and there are SOG-wannabes with force halberds are everywhere, that's pretty much the wrong way to run him, unless your goal is to lose him in the 1st or 2nd turn, having failed to accomplish anything of value.
He's too big to get cover from anything other than a very friendly Venomthroape, and too slow to screen for your advancing army without completely getting in the way of your skirmish line. Hold him back with the second wave and use him to take on the things that blow through your skirmish screen, rather than pointlessly thrust him forward to get murdered. If you want a suicidical monstrous creature, use a Trygon Prime. They'll at least bring Shadow in the Warp to reduce their chance of being force weapon'd and are Fleet so they maintain a decent melee threat bubble. Trygons are also not Initiative 1.
rigeld2 wrote:Init 1 I'll give you... but it's pretty easy to cover his base with SitW (running a Warrior Prime right behind him, attached to the Venomthrope)
My point was that him sitting back and lobbing 2 shots per turn, barely moving, was not the right way to use him.
rigeld2 has the right idea here. Your paying for his resiliency and his ability to fire 3 weapons per turn. You must run him with a Venom Thrope on his tail, but in that configuration he can eat about 16 Lance/Melta/Las shots before going down, more with regen. That's 16 ID shots not going into your warriors, lictors, venomthropes, zoanthropes, etc. Also, as far as GK go, not particularly difficult for nids to bubble wrap their TMCs.
I personally tend to shy away from MC builds. My current Nid list has only 3 MC's and are pretty low on the target priority scale, though they do contribute a lot towards final victory. MC's draw attention, especially the killy ones. By bringing 3 Trygons you are asking for your opponent to throw all their heavy weapons into them. I much prefer overwhelming the opponent with genestealers.
Now obviously the actual list plays a part and in this case a null deployment list needs the MC's. In the past I made some really fun lists with dakkagaunts, zoanthropes and Carnifexes coming out of spore pods. Unfortunately they have their weaknesses, but if you are just looking at the semi-competitive level then it's ok.
You may want to look at having a few non-DS units starting on the table. A full DS list relies on getting the alpha, though a savvy player will negate this. Smoke launchers on turn 2, moving flat out or simply bubble-wrapping the important elements will mean your alpha doesn a lot less damage than you imagined it would.
Something like:
Hive Tyrant w/ 2 Guard and Hive Commander
2x Zoanthropes in Spore pod
2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
10x dakka gaunts in spore pod
10x dakka gaunts in spore pod
Tervigon w/ catalyst
Tervigon w/ catalyst
20 stealers
20 stealers
Carnifex w/ 2x TL devourers in spore pod
Carnifex w/ 2x TL devourers in spore pod
I'm pretty sure I have gone over 2k points here but you get the idea. You want some supporting units that will prevent bubble wrapping and also be pretty offensive. Large units of infiltrating Genestealers with FnP fit the bill.
Hive Tyrant w/ 2 Guard and Hive Commander
2x Zoanthropes in Spore pod
2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
10x dakka gaunts in spore pod
10x dakka gaunts in spore pod
Tervigon w/ catalyst
Tervigon w/ catalyst
20 stealers
20 stealers
Carnifex w/ 2x TL devourers in spore pod
Carnifex w/ 2x TL devourers in spore pod
I'm pretty sure I have gone over 2k points here but you get the idea. You want some supporting units that will prevent bubble wrapping and also be pretty offensive. Large units of infiltrating Genestealers with FnP fit the bill.
Some further suggestions:
I like my spodding dakkagaunts in larger units. 20 of them can be tricky to fit on landing, but they will completely cripple a longfang unit or a unit of grey knights with their alfa strike (60 shot, 30 hit, 15 wounds, 5 dead) and can at least stun AV10 (~5 damage rolls with -3) so someone strong can easily eat the vehicle in melee next turn...
If you want a more agressive baseline, give the HT wings and swap the T-guards for bubblewrap gargoyles (awesome unit all around! grab two!).
20 stealers tends to be very unwieldy and take lot of damage from blasts/flamers/etc. I'd say about a dozen. Toxic sacs is normaly very good, but since they will be prety much the only thing that will be shot at in the beginning, you are probably going to want to have a lot of bodies.
I prefer trygon (primes) over dakka carnies in pods. Mind you, I regularly suffer from JotWW, so I might be subjective...
The problem with a winged tryant is he has no survivability. Hive Commander is key but if he goes down before he has a chance to utilize it your alpha strike falls apart. Don't get me wrong I love Wings on him, but when you need him to survive Tyrant Guard are the better option.
20 Stealers are only unwieldy when outflanking them. Spreading them out in a conga line for uninterrupted FnP and maxing out that 2" coherency means large blasts are only getting 3 models on a direct hit. Templates perhaps 4, and you still get FnP from most templates. I know anecdotal evidence is subjective and generally not worth much but I have yet to have a game where I have lost a unit of 20 stealers before they hit combat...and I have played a lot of games with my nids. The resiliency of FnP and cover combined is not to be underestimated.
Your stealers are also in combat on turn 2 most likely and turn 3 at latest. The footprint size of these guys is not to underestimated. They hem your opponent in to where you want them, then turn 2 hits and most of your reserves show up delivering the hammer blow.
Of course your opponent can try to run and just pop smoke Turn 1, but that's just allowing your stealer wall to advance with no comebacks. It's all about giving your opponents tough choices and it happens to be something nids are very good at doing.
I do like bigger dakkagaunt broods, 15 is my perfect number, but they get expensive fast. My suggestion to the OP is to practise and find the right combination that works for you.
2000 
2000 
11,100 pts, 
7,000 pts
.
