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So what army (or specific way to build an army) has zero hard counters.

What I mean by hard counter is that against this army you have a distinct disadvantage that is unavoidable (like when you see your opponent's army and say anything between "well, I lose no matter what." and "oh god this is going to require perfect dice rolls to win"

Please exclude Special Characters from this critique!

Some examples:
Wood Elves get countered by WoC, they just don't have the hitting power to get rid of WoC blocks.
High Elves get countered by Artillery Line Empire - T3 with 5+ saves MELTS to mortars and rocket batteries, and Empire are great at magic defense.
Ethereal-Spam Vampire Counts get countered by Daemons - everything is Magic Attacks
Daemons have a tough time against Ogres because Daemons often get hit hard by Ironguts/Bulls/etc. Basic Bloodletters are not good at absorbing lots of S6/S4 or S4/S4 attacks/stomps damage and anything else is not numerous enough to absorb the damage, plus the Ogres are immune to Fear.
Daemons also get countered by WoC. Apart from the Thirster, everything else is poor at absorbing damage and will die more than the WoC do (WoC striking first with = WS and S5 against T3 Bloodletters.

And so on...

Anyway, name anything you think has no counter (or one that is so specific that it probably won't come up often).
Go for the ~2500 Point Area if that matters

Chosen star. Good luck countering that if done properly. A unit that is better at cc than you with characters that murder everything and everyone has a 3++ ward.

HE teclis lists can be rough or if not teclis then that book that makes any doubles count as IF. Used with the right lore and a solid army build is rough.

Daemons should have little problems with most armies. They can do some dirty things.

It's not a matter of oh woc counter this and that it's a matter of what magic is used and how compotent the general is.

My woc have lost to daemons, WE DE HE lizardman dwarfs etc. It's not a matter of rock beats scissors but rather how the army is built and how it's used.

There's much, much less hard countering for armies in fantasy than 40k. It's much more down to individual ability and how well-crafted your list and tactics are.

If you don't know how to use the list, no matter how "counter proof" it is, you'll still lose.

Lizardmen with Light magic. Best army in the game, except for Skaven if all their toys work.

curran12 wrote:There's much, much less hard countering for armies in fantasy than 40k. It's much more down to individual ability and how well-crafted your list and tactics are.

If you don't know how to use the list, no matter how "counter proof" it is, you'll still lose.

I terms of army vs army matchups this is possible true. However the way 8th edition has been designed means that Fantasy is very much a game of rock paper scissors in terms of army/unit selection. If you bring massive blocks you die to magic, if you bring magic you lose to MSU and if you bring MSU you lose to big blocks. The level of randomness in the game now means that you can bring a solid army, play a mistake free game, but lose badly because mages explode, half a block dies from terrain attacking it or you fail multiple 7" charges, hence why the competitive Fantasy scene is dying out.

@Cowpow. The Chosenstar loses to good magic based armies, Dwellers, Pit, Purple Sun and the Lore of Metal will eat through it. Decent MSU lists can beat it as well, one thing that people forget is how slow the Chosenstar is, and that its really doesn't have that much damage output if it gets the 3++. You can often tarpit them with a big bus and take out the rest of the army.

Teclis dies to Shadowblade (yes he doesn't get used much, but we are talking about hard counters). Otherwise your best bet is MSU, throwing things like single Sabretusks or Salamanders into Teclis to kill him off. If the HE player didn't bring the Immune to Magic banner then you can snipe him out with Dwellers as well.

Teclis only dies to Shadowblade is the High Elf player is terrible. It's really not hard at all to keep Teclis alive vs Shadowblade.

Powerguy wrote:

I terms of army vs army matchups this is possible true. However the way 8th edition has been designed means that Fantasy is very much a game of rock paper scissors in terms of army/unit selection. If you bring massive blocks you die to magic, if you bring magic you lose to MSU and if you bring MSU you lose to big blocks. The level of randomness in the game now means that you can bring a solid army, play a mistake free game, but lose badly because mages explode, half a block dies from terrain attacking it or you fail multiple 7" charges, hence why the competitive Fantasy scene is dying out.

If your entire game falls apart because you lose one mage or miss a charge, you AREN'T playing a mistake-free game. If your battle plan is that fragile, that's a problem of its own. Also, failing multiple 7" charges? Really? Hyperbole much as most units are M4, you're telling me you roll snake eyes on multiple charges?

curran12 wrote:
Teclis dies to Shadowblade (yes he doesn't get used much, but we are talking about hard counters). Otherwise your best bet is MSU, throwing things like single Sabretusks or Salamanders into Teclis to kill him off. If the HE player didn't bring the Immune to Magic banner then you can snipe him out with Dwellers as well.

Don't worry about that, HE in general have very poor chances against Empire artillery lines. I once went against Teclis and lost 20 Halberdiers and my Lvl 4 Wizard on first turn to Dwellers. Over the next 3 turns, 3 Mortars and 2 Rocket Batteries went to work on his army and I came out with a major victory.

also:

OP wrote:Please exclude Special Characters from this critique!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

curran12 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

I terms of army vs army matchups this is possible true. However the way 8th edition has been designed means that Fantasy is very much a game of rock paper scissors in terms of army/unit selection. If you bring massive blocks you die to magic, if you bring magic you lose to MSU and if you bring MSU you lose to big blocks. The level of randomness in the game now means that you can bring a solid army, play a mistake free game, but lose badly because mages explode, half a block dies from terrain attacking it or you fail multiple 7" charges, hence why the competitive Fantasy scene is dying out.

If your entire game falls apart because you lose one mage or miss a charge, you AREN'T playing a mistake-free game. If your battle plan is that fragile, that's a problem of its own. Also, failing multiple 7" charges? Really? Hyperbole much as most units are M4, you're telling me you roll snake eyes on multiple charges?

I think he means charges that require him to roll a 7+ on 2 dice. So for M4 that would be 11"

@Cowpow. The Chosenstar loses to good magic based armies, Dwellers, Pit, Purple Sun and the Lore of Metal will eat through it. Decent MSU lists can beat it as well, one thing that people forget is how slow the Chosenstar is, and that its really doesn't have that much damage output if it gets the 3++. You can often tarpit them with a big bus and take out the rest of the army.

The Chosenstar is beaten by enemy armies with powerful units that can break the units around the Chosenstar. If the WoC are deployed WarriorBlock-Chosen-WarriorBlock, then charge the 2 warrior blocks, break them, and overrun out of LoS of the Chosen. O&G do this best with Savage Orc Big'Uns

Are you seriously going to try and argue that Fantasy is a well balanced game? From a competitive standpoint Fantasy is a joke purely due to the massive swings in the game from random events. Its on a completely different level from 40k, Warmachine and FoW, where you know the averages and the game operates around them without only occasional swings in luck. Fantasy tournaments aren't exactly booming (as you would usually expect after new rules are release), the general suggestion is the sales of Fantasy are down and there are even rumours that GW is looking at rushing out 9th before the normal 4 year cycle.

Guess what, if you miscast on your first spell of the game with your Level 4 (oh yeah another point worth mentioning, if you forgot your Level 4 you lose to magic heavy armies) and blow up then you are already 300 odd points behind (which is already enough for a loss in any tournament game) and completely at the mercy of your opponents magic. If you were always 6 dicing spells it would be a reasonable response (risk vs reward etc), but it can easily happen on 2-4 dice. At this point your only chance of winning against a half decent opponent is to have even more stupidly random stuff happen to him, and that's not the recipe for a competitive game. I want to play against my opponent, not a random number generator.

Yes its hyperbole to some extent, but failing 7" charges can and does happen. Even if you extend it out to a 10" charge you can easily fail that charge, and it can cost you games in many different situations.

Huh. I guess my best general with me one level 2 list in GTs has been doing it wrong this whole time. And it was against those "necessary" level 4 lists. I guess we in Washington are totally doing it wrong. Or it could be that people spouting on and on about "needed" things can't pull their heads out of the sand of the metagame and mix up tactics.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say a lick about the tournament scene, mostly because of a consistent dislike of TFGs in my area, but alas alas. But that said, might I ask if you played much in 7th? And were familiar with the tournament scene then?

So then everything has a counter?

It's really sad that Fantasy is just Rock-Paper-Scissors in competitive play.

zeekill wrote:So then everything has a counter?

It's really sad that Fantasy is just Rock-Paper-Scissors in competitive play.

Being a competitive tournament player I can tell you it is not.

Looking at things in terms of counters does not do the game justice. Look instead at one can be used in a number of ways and what is pigeon holed into just one role. I run very different lists in tournaments and do very well. If you listen to the internet about WHFB you will loose your games and not have fun. If you play WHFB instead you will understand how the game works and be competitive.

A balanced list run by a skilled general.

Everything has a pretty hard counter.

But hard counter in WHFB, as stated above, doesn't mean "destroys with 100% certainty and 0 casualties." It simply means, has a decent chance of coming out ahead on points in a matchup.

-Chosenstar < bigger Chosenstar
-Chosenstar < Final Transmutation (or other)
-Chosenstar < tons of new Chaos Dwarf tactics like their siege mortar and ash storm spell

I mean, there's lotsa stuff out there.

tmarichards wrote:Lizardmen with Light magic. Best army in the game, except for Skaven if all their toys work.

\
Hard Counter: Standard of sundering Miscasts on multiples of 1,2,3 and likely a -2 to cast.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

zeekill wrote:So then everything has a counter?

It's really sad that Fantasy is just Rock-Paper-Scissors in competitive play.

Being a competitive tournament player I can tell you it is not.

Looking at things in terms of counters does not do the game justice. Look instead at one can be used in a number of ways and what is pigeon holed into just one role. I run very different lists in tournaments and do very well. If you listen to the internet about WHFB you will loose your games and not have fun. If you play WHFB instead you will understand how the game works and be competitive.

I understand what you mean, but I still hate hard counters. Even if I build a fantastic list, just the thought that one particular army just by being in the same tourney as me, having nothing to do with player skill, can knock me out immediately if I get that player as an opponent. I used to play Dark Eldar in 40k. When Grey Knights came out I haven't brought my DE to a tourney since, because if a half-decent player brings a good GK list, they auto-win, and I hate the thought of that. Similarly I feel bad when the opposite happens and my opponent cant do anything against me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Acardia wrote:

tmarichards wrote:Lizardmen with Light magic. Best army in the game, except for Skaven if all their toys work.

\
Hard Counter: Standard of sundering Miscasts on multiples of 1,2,3 and likely a -2 to cast.

Perfect Example, just add in 2 units of Flamers that can snipe away those pesky Salamanders ^

We do not have the GK problem IMO. Our game is alot more balanced and I have seen WE crush WOC. WHFB is more about the man behind the army than 40k

Does that make Undead armies the Tau of of fantasy?

Johnny-Crass wrote:We do not have the GK problem IMO. Our game is alot more balanced and I have seen WE crush WOC. WHFB is more about the man behind the army than 40k

This a million times over.

Powerguy wrote:Are you seriously going to try and argue that Fantasy is a well balanced game? From a competitive standpoint Fantasy is a joke purely due to the massive swings in the game from random events. Its on a completely different level from 40k, Warmachine and FoW, where you know the averages and the game operates around them without only occasional swings in luck. Fantasy tournaments aren't exactly booming (as you would usually expect after new rules are release), the general suggestion is the sales of Fantasy are down and there are even rumours that GW is looking at rushing out 9th before the normal 4 year cycle.

Guess what, if you miscast on your first spell of the game with your Level 4 (oh yeah another point worth mentioning, if you forgot your Level 4 you lose to magic heavy armies) and blow up then you are already 300 odd points behind (which is already enough for a loss in any tournament game) and completely at the mercy of your opponents magic. If you were always 6 dicing spells it would be a reasonable response (risk vs reward etc), but it can easily happen on 2-4 dice. At this point your only chance of winning against a half decent opponent is to have even more stupidly random stuff happen to him, and that's not the recipe for a competitive game. I want to play against my opponent, not a random number generator.

Yes its hyperbole to some extent, but failing 7" charges can and does happen. Even if you extend it out to a 10" charge you can easily fail that charge, and it can cost you games in many different situations.

Only folk that cant get there head around the rule set struggle with fantasy getting the charge really wont effect the combat 90% of the time if you want a particular match up just go stand your unit 1-2" away from the enemy (thus limiting there ability to get away) Its all about using chaff units to get the charges you need.

As for the misguided opinion of magic why are you counting on magic to win the game? Folk leanrt how to deal with the big 6th killer spells long ago.

And on top of that there is markedly less desparity between the army books in 8th (the newer army books released since 8th have all been very balanced) as for 40k being a competive game you are deluding yourself that its about anything more then list selection and target priority.

From what's come out in eighth it seems fairly balanced it's the old 7th ed codexes that are bringing it into disrepute, and I while I've lost a good few times with different beasts lists in 8th have ever met an auto win/ loss army. Obviously I prefer playing some armies to others but it's not like 40k where I can roll out my gk and auto win against chaos for example

curran12 wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:We do not have the GK problem IMO. Our game is alot more balanced and I have seen WE crush WOC. WHFB is more about the man behind the army than 40k

This a million times over.

Grey Knights get a crazy amount of internet hate, they are powerful but nowhere near as overpowered as people seem to think. They are routinely getting crushed by Necrons, and still have weaknesses to other armies (good Mech Guard lists or Tau can outshoot them etc etc). They aren't anywhere near as bad as Daemons were in 7th edition Fantasy.

@Jubear. Positioning is clearly more important in Fantasy, it is what wins and loses you games. I don't think anyone is going to try and argue against that since its always been the case and its one of the main draws of Fantasy over 40k. It then follows naturally that by introducing randomness in your ability to BE in the right position you are having an impact on the ability of a player to influence the outcome of their own game. The problem is now that charges have such a wide distribution you can easily have all your work getting a unit into a good position ruined by the RNG. If I fail my 8" (total) charge into the flank of something, which then proceeds to eat through the block I had them pinned with and break it, how is that not game breaking? I actually quite like the idea of randomised charge distances, but in its current form there is just too much variation.

Regarding magic; I'm not expecting it to win me the game, but without it I will lose games. Lets say I bring a Deathstar (Chosen, Grave Guard, White Lions etc). You can't face it in combat unless you also happened to bring your own Deathstar (yawn) and even then you probably don't get anywhere by running them into each other since you actually have to completely wipe units to get the points for them (which is one of the major issues with 8th). This leaves shooting (which isn't going to get the job done fast enough), complete avoidance (which can work against Chosen and other M4 Deathstars, but not so much against M5/6 or Cav Deathstars) or magic. Essentially if you don't bring magic then Deathstars will run all over you. Even if you ignore Deathstars, and just look at the 50+ strong units of infantry people bring as tarpits or cheap hordes (Marauders etc) then you need magic if you expect to break them, since Steadfast/BSB/General means that block isn't giving you any points without some serious casualties.
Btw could you give me an example of a way to 'deal' with the mega spells? Of course it can't be to take smaller MSU blocks, because that's how we ended up in this argument in the first place....

I wouldn't actually say that the 8th edition books are massively balanced. Certainly not when you compare them to the books towards the end of 7th (i.e the ones which will be around for another 3 or so years before they get updated). So far we have had Orcs, Ogres, Vampires and Tomb Kings. The Orc book was a good example of a copy paste book, its still basically the same army (1-2 new shiny things basically) and they didn't really fix any of the issues from the last book. It seems like not a huge amount of thought went into it, and much like Eldar in 40k I expect the book to get shown up as more books get released. Tomb Kings were similar, they got some big new monsters to get blasted apart by war machines but still have the same issues and the same kind of builds. As an example, pretty much any monster mash list you can build with Tomb Kings can be done better with Lizardmen (better monsters, better mages, better infantry, better support/shooting). To me the final point is one of the biggest ones, if they update a book and people end up running the same lists before and after then don't you have to consider the book a failure? Ogres fall into this trap as well, they are certainly much better than they were and imo it is a much strong book than Orks or TK, but they are still mostly just running massive blocks of Bulls and Ironguts. Vampires on the other hand are incredibly powerful, nothing meaningful got nerfed (Grave Guard got slightly worse, meh), a bunch of things became usable and a heap of new powerful things got added.

Out of interest, do you consider list selection to be a skill? You comment suggests that you don't, but I doubt you are going to be happy to play with a list which someone randomly generates for you to use. If you really want to boil things down then basically any wargame comes down to target priority (or the equivalent for the given system). I play both 40k and Fantasy, and can safely say that only 40k is a competitive game system (and its certainly not perfect). Fantasy is still good fun and well suited to pick up games between mates, but the huge amount of inherent randomness in the game means that its not suited to tournament play.

Wow lots of people commenting that's good.

In my earlier post I wasn't saying fantasy is perfectly balanced, however it dosnt suffer asuch as 40k does. Yes there are op things and cheese but to have a good fantasy army you don't need that.
As the example with the chosen star, yes I have run it and it's pretty beastly don't get me wrong. I have won without it too, as well it is possible to build a strong chaos army without chosen.

A lot of it is strategy and even more of it is luck.

IMO there is no one army that cancels out another army as well as fantasy dosnt seem to have the so called grey knight problem because of the structure of the game. Think about grey knight units not being able to charge things that are not in the units front arc. That would change things right.

Anyways fantasy is by no means perfect but IMO has fewer "issues" than 40k

Powerguy wrote:

curran12 wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:We do not have the GK problem IMO. Our game is alot more balanced and I have seen WE crush WOC. WHFB is more about the man behind the army than 40k

This a million times over.

Grey Knights get a crazy amount of internet hate, they are powerful but nowhere near as overpowered as people seem to think. They are routinely getting crushed by Necrons, and still have weaknesses to other armies (good Mech Guard lists or Tau can outshoot them etc etc). They aren't anywhere near as bad as Daemons were in 7th edition Fantasy.

I play Grey Knights, yes they are that overpowered. I've argued the GK over and over and usually it boils down to people not taking optimized GK lists or not having good target priority, and then when people beat the GK list they seem to think they are not OP. Necrons, Wolves, and Blood Angels are perhaps the only 3 balanced or nearly-balanced match-ups that can go against an optimized, OP GK list and pull out a tie or sometimes a win. My first 6 games ever with GK were in local tourneys (3 games each, and the first tourney was the day after I finished building the models). I won all 6 games without losing more than 20% of my army each game.

Powerguy wrote:
Out of interest, do you consider list selection to be a skill? You comment suggests that you don't, but I doubt you are going to be happy to play with a list which someone randomly generates for you to use. If you really want to boil things down then basically any wargame comes down to target priority (or the equivalent for the given system). I play both 40k and Fantasy, and can safely say that only 40k is a competitive game system (and its certainly not perfect). Fantasy is still good fun and well suited to pick up games between mates, but the huge amount of inherent randomness in the game means that its not suited to tournament play.

I'm not sure if this is @Jubear or @ me, but ill answer just in case. I don't think this, but sometimes this is exactly what it comes down to. For example before the new TK book, I played a Khalida archer spam list. It did well vs most armies and it was a ton of fun trying to out-magic and out-shoot my opponent because I didn't have good dedicated combat units. WoC however just ran over me because there was zero chance of me doing any significant damage to them whatsoever by the time they got to me. Usually with randomly generated lists I can play them, but I'll feel a tiny bit uncomfortable if the list has any weakness that I see could have been easily avoided in list making.

Edit: Grammar

zeekill wrote:
I play Grey Knights, yes they are that overpowered. I've argued the GK over and over and usually it boils down to people not taking optimized GK lists or not having good target priority, and then when people beat the GK list they seem to think they are not OP. Necrons, Wolves, and Blood Angels are perhaps the only 3 balanced or nearly-balanced match-ups that can go against an optimized, OP GK list and pull out a tie or sometimes a win. My first 6 games ever with GK were in local tourneys (3 games each, and the first tourney was the day after I finished building the models). I won all 6 games without losing more than 20% of my army each game.

I both play Grey Knights and have played against them with my Black Templars. Both instances include optimal lists and both my opponents and I are decent enough to know what to shoot. I've been crushed while playing my Knights and I've crushed them utterly when playing Templars. In the end, the Grey Knights aren't wiping the floor with everyone in tournaments (where the most "hardcore" players tend to gather), so I'd say that your argument is based on anecdotal evidence, which doesn't matter one iota.

Back on topic: As far as I've experienced there's nothing in the game that is uncounterable by anything. Some matchups are pretty uphill (High Elves versus them damned rats makes me whince a little every time), but Skaven have their own difficulties.

Powerguy wrote:

curran12 wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:We do not have the GK problem IMO. Our game is alot more balanced and I have seen WE crush WOC. WHFB is more about the man behind the army than 40k

This a million times over.

Grey Knights get a crazy amount of internet hate, they are powerful but nowhere near as overpowered as people seem to think. They are routinely getting crushed by Necrons, and still have weaknesses to other armies (good Mech Guard lists or Tau can outshoot them etc etc). They aren't anywhere near as bad as Daemons were in 7th edition Fantasy.

@Jubear. Positioning is clearly more important in Fantasy, it is what wins and loses you games. I don't think anyone is going to try and argue against that since its always been the case and its one of the main draws of Fantasy over 40k. It then follows naturally that by introducing randomness in your ability to BE in the right position you are having an impact on the ability of a player to influence the outcome of their own game. The problem is now that charges have such a wide distribution you can easily have all your work getting a unit into a good position ruined by the RNG. If I fail my 8" (total) charge into the flank of something, which then proceeds to eat through the block I had them pinned with and break it, how is that not game breaking? I actually quite like the idea of randomised charge distances, but in its current form there is just too much variation.

Regarding magic; I'm not expecting it to win me the game, but without it I will lose games. Lets say I bring a Deathstar (Chosen, Grave Guard, White Lions etc). You can't face it in combat unless you also happened to bring your own Deathstar (yawn) and even then you probably don't get anywhere by running them into each other since you actually have to completely wipe units to get the points for them (which is one of the major issues with 8th). This leaves shooting (which isn't going to get the job done fast enough), complete avoidance (which can work against Chosen and other M4 Deathstars, but not so much against M5/6 or Cav Deathstars) or magic. Essentially if you don't bring magic then Deathstars will run all over you. Even if you ignore Deathstars, and just look at the 50+ strong units of infantry people bring as tarpits or cheap hordes (Marauders etc) then you need magic if you expect to break them, since Steadfast/BSB/General means that block isn't giving you any points without some serious casualties.
Btw could you give me an example of a way to 'deal' with the mega spells? Of course it can't be to take smaller MSU blocks, because that's how we ended up in this argument in the first place....

I wouldn't actually say that the 8th edition books are massively balanced. Certainly not when you compare them to the books towards the end of 7th (i.e the ones which will be around for another 3 or so years before they get updated). So far we have had Orcs, Ogres, Vampires and Tomb Kings. The Orc book was a good example of a copy paste book, its still basically the same army (1-2 new shiny things basically) and they didn't really fix any of the issues from the last book. It seems like not a huge amount of thought went into it, and much like Eldar in 40k I expect the book to get shown up as more books get released. Tomb Kings were similar, they got some big new monsters to get blasted apart by war machines but still have the same issues and the same kind of builds. As an example, pretty much any monster mash list you can build with Tomb Kings can be done better with Lizardmen (better monsters, better mages, better infantry, better support/shooting). To me the final point is one of the biggest ones, if they update a book and people end up running the same lists before and after then don't you have to consider the book a failure? Ogres fall into this trap as well, they are certainly much better than they were and imo it is a much strong book than Orks or TK, but they are still mostly just running massive blocks of Bulls and Ironguts. Vampires on the other hand are incredibly powerful, nothing meaningful got nerfed (Grave Guard got slightly worse, meh), a bunch of things became usable and a heap of new powerful things got added.

Out of interest, do you consider list selection to be a skill? You comment suggests that you don't, but I doubt you are going to be happy to play with a list which someone randomly generates for you to use. If you really want to boil things down then basically any wargame comes down to target priority (or the equivalent for the given system). I play both 40k and Fantasy, and can safely say that only 40k is a competitive game system (and its certainly not perfect). Fantasy is still good fun and well suited to pick up games between mates, but the huge amount of inherent randomness in the game means that its not suited to tournament play.

If you are relying on any charge that is not an auto complete then you are doing it wrong. Spend an extra turn to walk right up to the enemy and watch in amusement as they cant do anything but shuffle backwards 2-3 inches. As for the 8th edition army books I dont think any of them are unbalanced its just cheaper to make a competive ogre army so you see more ogre armies that are top tier compared to say orcs and goblins that take alot of cash and time in terms of painting to assemble a good list. And its certainly better then 40k where some armies have hard counters (poor tyraninds vs Dark elder) actually who am I kidding its just space marines vs space marines in 40k.

As for list selection yes creating a decent TAC list is a skill its just not a terribly hard one to get a handle on in a game that rewards spamming the same units.

Powerguy wrote:Are you seriously going to try and argue that Fantasy is a well balanced game? From a competitive standpoint Fantasy is a joke purely due to the massive swings in the game from random events. Its on a completely different level from 40k, Warmachine and FoW, where you know the averages and the game operates around them without only occasional swings in luck. Fantasy tournaments aren't exactly booming (as you would usually expect after new rules are release), the general suggestion is the sales of Fantasy are down and there are even rumours that GW is looking at rushing out 9th before the normal 4 year cycle.

Wait, did you just imply that 40k is a more balanced game than Fantasy?

zeekill wrote:So then everything has a counter?

It's really sad that Fantasy is just Rock-Paper-Scissors in competitive play.

It's "sad" that everything in the game has a counter? Does the "Rock-Scissors" level of competitive play in 40K work better than rock-paper-scissors of Fantasy?

It's only sad for the people that want stuff which will win 100% of the time

The ironic thing for me is the club here is doing everything it can to stop this kinda of stupidity; max 40 max units to avoid stars, max 500 point units (I think, I forget the exact #), no dup rares, and they're looking at some of the other balancing ideas others have come up with. I think it's great...puts less focus on "the" unit(s) and more on generalship, which is where it should be.

Personally, if winning is that important to you that you're not having fun, try something else.

Slaan wrote:The ironic thing for me is the club here is doing everything it can to stop this kinda of stupidity; max 40 max units to avoid stars, max 500 point units (I think, I forget the exact #), no dup rares, and they're looking at some of the other balancing ideas others have come up with. I think it's great...puts less focus on "the" unit(s) and more on generalship, which is where it should be.

Personally, if winning is that important to you that you're not having fun, try something else.

`

That's what I like to see, comped play so that there isn't no fun games, although I'm assuming the no 2 rares isn't universal, like what harm in letting WE take double eagles for example, or beastmen double cygor its only really applicable to armies like daemons, vamps and lizzies etc