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I'm thinking about the roles for Gue'vesa (human auxiliaries) in the Tau Empire. We know that they get used as support troops, wielding the allwimpy lasgun. However, we also know that sometimes the Tau give them Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines, which would let them easily be used as "counts-as" Fire Warriors. Would it be crazy to assume that particularly woodsy Gue'vesa might be recruited as Pathfinders? That particularly technically adept Gue'vesa might end up piloting tanks or Piranhas? What about Crisis Suits and Broadsides? What are your opinions?

I see nothing wrong with your idea. Battlesuits might be out of their ability. It seems that they have to make there own gear so anything they have will have a human bent to it.

Their role is auxiliary. Like the kroot or the vespin, they are mostly on there own with there own command and unit structure.

That is how I see it anyway.

I kinda see them as fodder, so probably not.

I can see a very skilled guardsman (like Guardsman Marbo or Audie Murphy) possibly being allowed to pilot a battlesuit or something, but their general role is as auxiliaries. They fill a role between the savage Kroot, and the puny Tau, they can fight to a very limited extent in hand to hand, while being able to use pulse weapons.

They are useful for being punished for defecting

Other then that, cannon fodder.

Cannon fodder most of the time.

Brother Coa wrote:Cannon fodder most of the time.

This claim is unsuported by the avaiable fluff. There is usualy no place for cannonfodder within the Tau Empire's approach to warfare.

The available fluff doesn't support the claim of something named 'Gue'vesa' as existing group in the 40k verse of the 5th edition of Warhammer 40.000.

Yeah, they could just equip the units as Fire Warriors/Pathfinders to represent allied forces. Low I might be an issue with representing them but WS can be explained by lack of training. I was actually tempted to do the same for my army at one point. I think it was mentioned that the Tau do sell battlesuits to Imperial Hive nobles so equiping loyal Gue Vesa who have proven themselves doesn't seem out of the question. As long as the Earth caste builds the kit you're pretty much okay for anything. I doubt they would do mixed race units though.


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1hadhq wrote:The available fluff doesn't support the claim of something named 'Gue'vesa' as existing group in the 40k verse of the 5th edition of Warhammer 40.000.

If they've conquered human worlds then it follows that they have Gue Vesa soldiers. Stating in the codex that they use human troops but not putting them as a unit entry would be confusing so they simply didn't do it in 4th where codexs had to be very simple and were lacking in background. They wanted to empahsise the alien nature of the Tau Empire so putting humans in wouldn't have made sense at the time. Given that most 5th ed codexs have massively increased the number and variety of units it seems likely that they would put them in a future codex. It would also make it clear the danger of the subversive nature of the Tau which HAS been strongly referenced. If you can get people to surrender to you, join your cause and what not then its not a vast leap towards fighting for them. Especially considering what the Imperium would do to you if they got you.

Buttons wrote:I can see a very skilled guardsman (like Guardsman Marbo or Audie Murphy) possibly being allowed to pilot a battlesuit or something, but their general role is as auxiliaries. They fill a role between the savage Kroot, and the puny Tau, they can fight to a very limited extent in hand to hand, while being able to use pulse weapons.

This basically fits the fluff I was building for my cadre: I think I'm going to say that one of my crisis suits is piloted by a human, but it's sort of a glass ceiling situation - everyone else in his squad is Tau, and in some ways he was given the position in part to keep the other humans in line.

I've also bought some Cadian legs and heads and will be making a Gue'vesa squad to use as counts-as Fire Warriors.

T'au battlesuits automatically kill any non-T'au who try to pilot them, according to the Last Chancers series.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

If they've conquered human worlds then it follows that they have Gue Vesa soldiers. Stating in the codex that they use human troops but not putting them as a unit entry would be confusing so they simply didn't do it in 4th where codexs had to be very simple and were lacking in background. They wanted to empahsise the alien nature of the Tau Empire so putting humans in wouldn't have made sense at the time. Given that most 5th ed codexs have massively increased the number and variety of units it seems likely that they would put them in a future codex. It would also make it clear the danger of the subversive nature of the Tau which HAS been strongly referenced. If you can get people to surrender to you, join your cause and what not then its not a vast leap towards fighting for them. Especially considering what the Imperium would do to you if they got you.

Really? So if you conquer an Eldar maiden world you'll have Eldar serving in your Ranks afterwards is your line of thinking?
GW altered the course of a newly created Race and its codex. So the "gue'vesa" list isn't gone recently but deleted for some time.
GW also kept that course as they never mentioned them again afterwards. Thus its safe to assume their actual focus is on the Tau as a Xeno-alliance and they may stick with this in any new background to follow.
The chance to add different sculpts of rarely seen small races is greater in an "coalition" army list and Tau could provide that host for GW's purposes. Therefore I wouldn't bet on humans as part of a Tau codex.

1hadhq wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

If they've conquered human worlds then it follows that they have Gue Vesa soldiers. Stating in the codex that they use human troops but not putting them as a unit entry would be confusing so they simply didn't do it in 4th where codexs had to be very simple and were lacking in background. They wanted to empahsise the alien nature of the Tau Empire so putting humans in wouldn't have made sense at the time. Given that most 5th ed codexs have massively increased the number and variety of units it seems likely that they would put them in a future codex. It would also make it clear the danger of the subversive nature of the Tau which HAS been strongly referenced. If you can get people to surrender to you, join your cause and what not then its not a vast leap towards fighting for them. Especially considering what the Imperium would do to you if they got you.

Really? So if you conquer an Eldar maiden world you'll have Eldar serving in your Ranks afterwards is your line of thinking?
GW altered the course of a newly created Race and its codex. So the "gue'vesa" list isn't gone recently but deleted for some time.
GW also kept that course as they never mentioned them again afterwards. Thus its safe to assume their actual focus is on the Tau as a Xeno-alliance and they may stick with this in any new background to follow.
The chance to add different sculpts of rarely seen small races is greater in an "coalition" army list and Tau could provide that host for GW's purposes. Therefore I wouldn't bet on humans as part of a Tau codex.

There are no examples of Tau conquering Eldar worlds. They would try and the eldar would simply resist and fight to the death because they know how nieve the Tau are. Human worlds have fallen to the Tau and many humans have defected to the Greater Good. GW does push the threat posed by the insidious nature of Tau society offering its benefits to human soldiers. Yes they want to push the theme of xenos alliance but that doesn't preclude there being humans in the Empire.

First off all Eldar have much less worlds then Humans, and most of them are on the edge's of the galaxy - far from Imperial border.

Second off all not all Human worlds "run" to Tau, Nimbosa and Gravalax being the obvious example. Run thus far succeed in converting small number of poorly populate Human worlds, with mostly 10 - 12.000.000 citizens or even less. And abandoned Imperil Guard Regiments left from various battles against Tau. But, as we can see, Tau wil lhave big problem trying to convert much larger populated worlds, because the presence of Imperial Creed is much stronger then in poorly populated ones.

And in every story/book I read about Gue'Vesa their role is mostly to charge at enemy position to allow Tau Fire Warriors to gun down their enemies. I mean, Tau are using Kroot as cannon fooder, why would they treat Humans differently?

The Tau don't necessarily "conquer" a human world. The Human World opens a diplomatic dialog with the Water Caste ambassador and, eventually, willingly joins the Tau Empire, probably after purging their population of pro-Imperial factions.

Brother Coa wrote:First off all Eldar have much less worlds then Humans, and most of them are on the edge's of the galaxy - far from Imperial border.

Second off all not all Human worlds "run" to Tau, Nimbosa and Gravalax being the obvious example. Run thus far succeed in converting small number of poorly populate Human worlds, with mostly 10 - 12.000.000 citizens or even less. And abandoned Imperil Guard Regiments left from various battles against Tau. But, as we can see, Tau wil lhave big problem trying to convert much larger populated worlds, because the presence of Imperial Creed is much stronger then in poorly populated ones.

And in every story/book I read about Gue'Vesa their role is mostly to charge at enemy position to allow Tau Fire Warriors to gun down their enemies. I mean, Tau are using Kroot as cannon fooder, why would they treat Humans differently?

Neither Kroot nor human auxiliaries are used as cannonfodder. I don't know what you read but Imperial Armour III, the Tau Codex as well as the Achilus Assault make this pretty clear.
Some troops are certainly more expendable than others ( strangely enough these seem to be quite often the Tau's alien auxiliaries ) but the Tau doctrine itself has, unlike the imperial guard which at time prefers massed assaults, no use for mere cannonfodder.

I can see human auxiliaries being used as cannonfodder, but the choice would be that of their human commanders.

I also read a white dwarf with a short story about an Elysian commander being offered governorship of an entire world if he would assist them in negociating with the Imperial armies; as well as provide information to facilitate such forceful diplomacy if they should fail.

Short answer: Most human (and other Xeno) armies stay as they are, in personnel and weaponry. Tau may provide minor technological and organisational help, but mostly on the level of improving fire arms. No instance is known where tau provide humans with crisis suits, vehicles or other hightech stuff, partly because these need tau anatomy/language/thinking to be controled, partly because such knowledge in the hands of notoriously untrustworthy humans during a war against humans is unwise.

Brother Coa wrote:And in every story/book I read about Gue'Vesa their role is mostly to charge at enemy position to allow Tau Fire Warriors to gun down their enemies.

Of which books and stories are you speaking? Please give the sources.
Given that the Tau military doesn't have the concept of cannon fodder (also not for Kroot) according to the developers, I would be astonished if there are ANY such stories. Sounds more like the usual "it is official Tau background because I just made it up" thing, that we find in all Tau threads.

Durza wrote:T'au battlesuits automatically kill any non-T'au who try to pilot them, according to the Last Chancers series.

I would imagine that the Tau would make human-friendy versions or adjust a Battlesuit to allow a human to wear it. They might have password or DNA recognition to prevent enemy humans taking over a Battlesuit and going on a joyride with it.

I imagine that over time the Tau will have humans performing more and more in thier civilisation. This will happen due to the humans under thier control growing in number and because unlike Kroot and Vespid the Tau humans have left thier own society behind which requires the Tau to fill the gap to a certain degree.

I've always seen the Tau Empire as pretty much the same as Halo's Covenant. Each race acting independently but all defer to the Prophets/Ethereals and the one in charge of that campaign.

As such, I think the Gue'Vesa being cannonfodder is down to the fact that their commanding officers are used to the Imperial style of warfare.

It's mentioned in Deathwatch: Achilus assault (they abandoned human worlds they were in the process of assimilating to the Imperium - telling them not to resist right away, and then when they'd stretched out Imperial supply lines they had the human populations (supported by and encouraged by infiltrators and weaponry the tau themselves had left behind) to rise up and pretty much bring the Imperial advance to a halt (which lead to a bunch of worlds being quarantined and others brutally suppressed by its paranoid commander.) Achilus assault also mentions the Tau using indoctrinated human world populations to fight Imperial tactics in the same way (fight fire with fire, IIRC.)

All that said, it was pretty much in line with their doctrine (withdrawl to draw the enemy into a time and palce of your choosing, where you hit them hard) and generally their most effective means of countering the initial thrust of the AChilus Crusade. They needed time to prepare and amass the forces that would allow them to properly resist - and they needed to protect the core (Tau) worlds. The Greater Good philosophy allows for that sort of thing - even attrition and sacrifice - if the situation is deemed to warrant it and it doesn't instantly turn the Tau into Zap1 Branigan, nor does it say anything about how good/evil the tau are (which is a pretty silly thing to say - you can't generalize about entire populations in so simplistic a manner, even though there are plenty who try.)

AS far as human roles in the tau Imperium, it largely seems to be a supplementary or support role. Humans are not as uniformly devoted/dedicated to ideologies as the tau, so this by nature makes them less trustworthy (that isnt to say there aren't fanatically loyal humans on the tau side, its just that not all humans are going to be that way, at least not without appropriate indoctrination and reeducation.) They simply cannot be trusted to be as dedicated to, or loyal to the concept of the Greater Good (or Ethereals) as the tau (or their more loyal auxiliaries like Kroot) can be. Human soldiers will largely be a backup (or sometimes fodder) in conflicts to support or preserve Fire Warriors and more valuable auxiliraies (again if the Greater Good requires it.). They use humans as labour on mining worlds (alongside the Earth CAste and tau technology used in such activities.) and so on. They get access to at least some basic tau technologies (like weaponry, some armour, other devices and probably even drones) but probably not full access the way the tau do (more like the Kroot really.) but this also varies. Some human auxiliaries make do with what tech they already had (at least in a warzone.)

This will probably change over time as those human worlds the tau claim give birth to new generations (and the children are raised under a more Tau philosophy) but in the short term they're going to be treated differently.

They could do everything except pilot battlesuits. In one of the last chancer books, didn't someone try to pilot one then get fried in the process?

HE tried to access a battlesuit he didnt have authorization to. He was fried by what basically amounts to an anti-theft device. The tau have every reason not to want untrustworthy sorts to hijack their tech, which is likely why few if any auxiliaries have access to the higher tier tau tech.

It's also quite possible that aside from trust issues, the tau have not yet worked out a means of adapting all their tech (like battlesuits, or the mental interface their rail rifles supposedly used) to the uses of other races. The do better at innovation in general than the Imperium does, but that doesn't mean they magically figure out how to do gak and there are some areas where even the Imperium does better than they do.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It's mentioned in Deathwatch: Achilus assault (they abandoned human worlds they were in the process of assimilating to the Imperium - telling them not to resist right away, and then when they'd stretched out Imperial supply lines they had the human populations (supported by and encouraged by infiltrators and weaponry the tau themselves had left behind) to rise up and pretty much bring the Imperial advance to a halt (which lead to a bunch of worlds being quarantined and others brutally suppressed by its paranoid commander.) Achilus assault also mentions the Tau using indoctrinated human world populations to fight Imperial tactics in the same way (fight fire with fire, IIRC.)
(...)
They use humans as labour on mining worlds (alongside the Earth CAste and tau technology used in such activities.) and so on.

Guess the second quote refers to the Taros campaign book (or a similar situation in Achilus Assault):
"Tau use humans as labour on mining worlds" actually means there are human mining worlds were humans work in mines and continue to do so when joining the Tau Empire. This included POW as mining is all the work done on that planet. It doesn't mean that Tau ship human slaves to die in work camps.

The first quote also refers to a human planet in the Imperium. Accusing the Tau to not sacrifice their own troops and interpreting this as the human population being cannon fodder also gives a false impression (esp. as the Tau care and help the humans to survive a potential war).

In both cases there are humans acting on a human planet as they would if they hadn't any contact with Tau. This supports the idea that planets in the Tau Empire usually act independently but cooperate in interplanetary issues. Makes sense as the tau are not numerous enough to subjugate the members of the Tau Empire even if background allowed this.

See, what to say more? How to source seriously to someone who will intrepid that only as "it is written from Imperial point of view so it must be false".

Especially when that someone still thinks that Tau are super good guys from way back when they first come from ( 3'rd edition ), not seeing how drastically Tau have changed since then ( rumors about sterilization, mind control, annihilation of entire planet population, enslaving the prisoners of war... ). But I guess everyone have right of their own participation and view of factions.

Or alternatively there is a unique cadre out thre where they like to bring loyal Humans into thier battle plans more fully. Its an infinite universe, go crazy

Brother Coa wrote:See, what to say more? How to source seriously to someone who will intrepid that only as "it is written from Imperial point of view so it must be false".

Especially when that someone still thinks that Tau are super good guys from way back when they first come from ( 3'rd edition ), not seeing how drastically Tau have changed since then ( rumors about sterilization, mind control, annihilation of entire planet population, enslaving the prisoners of war... ). But I guess everyone have right of their own participation and view of factions.

In other words: You made it up
Tau haters always start insulting when asked for a proof or source for their information.

Kroothawk wrote:
In other words: You made it up
Tau haters always start insulting when asked for a proof or source for their information.

Figures, said to me by men who always call other people trolls for not agreeing with his vision of Tau. I at least respect other people opinions.

If you want source: "Fire and Honor", "Courage and Honor", Imperial Armory III and 4 mini BL stories.

Brother Coa wrote:If you want source: "Fire and Honor", "Courage and Honor", Imperial Armory III and 4 mini BL stories.

Sorry, you guessed wrong. No Gue'Vesa in Courage and Honor. No cannon fodder in Imperial Armour 3. And judging from the summaries of the comics, no Gue'Vesa in "Fire and Honor" either (where Tau seem to be portrayed as mad berserkers which contradicts fluff):


But keep on guessing where your made up statements might be found.