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Hey guys, we have a challenge as to the interpretation of the new Shadow in the Warp amendment. User A's interpretation of the the rule is that the rule now stack, example: a Librarian wishing to use a psychic power within range on 9 Warrior now has to take his psychic test on 11D6. User B's interpretation of the amendment is that changing the language of the rule did not change the affect of the rule, example: a Librarian wishing to use a psychic power within range on 1 Warrior now has to take his psychic test on 3D6, at the same time that same Librarian wishing to use a psychic power within range on 9 Warrior now has to take his psychic test on 3D6.

The Original

Any enemy psyker that takes a Psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6 and suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll on any double 1 or double 6.

The Amendment

Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

What is your interpretation of this amendment.

I am going to go with Player B, who says they don't stack, because I think you'd need a 'per Tyranid with the SiTW special rule', instead of 'within 12" blah blah special rule". Once they are within 12" of a nid with the rule, they roll 3D6, and the SiTW rule is 'sated'.

well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

broodstar wrote:well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

Because this was, if there is something else in play that changes the number of dice the psyker has to roll, there is no conflict.

Other than that change, the revised wording makes no difference to how SitW works. It just changes the 3D6 to an extra D6.

insaniak wrote:

broodstar wrote:well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

Because this was, if there is something else in play that changes the number of dice the psyker has to roll, there is no conflict.

Other than that change, the revised wording makes no difference to how SitW works. It just changes the 3D6 to an extra D6.

I'm sorry but, I will have to respectfully diagree. This isn't a simple change the word "A" to "THE," this is changing a set amount to a non-set addition.

Under the old language is didn't matter how many it was in range of, the debuff amount was set at 3d6, I could have my entire army around that psyker and it will be just 3D6.

Under the new language, the psyker is within range of a model with SitW that +1 dice. one model =+1 dice, one model =+1 dice, etc.

With that language that looks like 1 model = 1 extra dice. That lends itself to the question of being cumulative.

broodstar wrote:This isn't a simple change the word "A" to "THE," this is changing a set amount to a non-set addition.

That's exactly what I said.

Under the old language is didn't matter how many it was in range of, the debuff amount was set at 3d6, I could have my entire army around that psyker and it will be just 3D6.

Under the new language, the psyker is within range of a model with SitW that +1 dice. one model =+1 dice, one model =+1 dice, etc.

With that language that looks like 1 model = 1 extra dice. That lends itself to the question of being cumulative.

There is no question of it being cumulative, any more than there is for the Waaagh! Banner. You roll an extra D6 if you are within range of a relevant Tyranid. Not a D6 for each Tyranid within range. One, two, seven, or a hundred and forty-three Tyranids... it makes no difference. In each case there is a Tyranid within range, and so you roll the extra D6.

Again, the only thing that has changed is that you are rolling an extra D6 instead of a set 3D6.

broodstar wrote:well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

If a psyker has his own special rule that allows him to roll 3D6 at all times, then there would be no downside to him using his abilities within 12 inches because he already uses 3D6 anyway.

Changing the wording to +1 D6 always makes it more risky to use irregardless of the initial number of dice used.

d-usa wrote:

broodstar wrote:well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

If a psyker has his own special rule that allows him to roll 3D6 at all times, then there would be no downside to him using his abilities within 12 inches because he already uses 3D6 anyway.

Changing the wording to +1 D6 always makes it more risky to use irregardless of the initial number of dice used.

What psychic powers are taken on 3D6, one, name one?

broodstar wrote:What psychic powers are taken on 3D6, one, name one?

I rather suspect that it's not so much to cover current situations, as to bring the language in line with the same change having been made to Eldar Runes of Warding, to remove potential conflicts from Eldar vs Eldar games.

Most of my arguement has already been said. If a GK unit wanted to use hammerhand against a 5 Strong Warrior Brood, then they would use this flow chart.


Is the Psyker (in this case the entire unit) within range of a Tyranid with SitW? Yes. +1 Dice. On 3D6.
Is it with range of creature 2? Yes. +1 Dice. On 4D6.

And so on.


Now, it could be that they made a typing error and meant to say Tyranid Unit, because autofailing tests when within range of 9 warriors is pretty powerful, but the words state:

If a psyker is with range of a Tyraind (meaning a model) with rule, then.it adds +1 to the number of dice they must roll for a psychic test.

Deadshot wrote:Most of my arguement has already been said. If a GK unit wanted to use hammerhand against a 5 Strong Warrior Brood, then they would use this flow chart.


Is the Psyker (in this case the entire unit) within range of a Tyranid with SitW? Yes. +1 Dice. On 3D6.
Is it with range of creature 2? Yes. +1 Dice. On 4D6.

And so on.

This is incorrect. Again, it doesn't say that you add a D6 for each Tyranid.

If the Psyker is within range of a single Tyranid with SitW, then he is within range of a Tyranid with SitW. He therefore adds +1D6 to his roll.
If the Psyker is within range of 2 Tyranids with SitW, then he is within range of a Tyranid with SitW. He therefore adds +1D6 to his roll.
If the Psyker is within range of 127 Tyranids with SitW, then he is within range of a Tyranid with SitW. He therefore adds +1D6 to his roll.

This isn't just trying to stomp on a single Tyranid power. There are a number of abilities and effects in the game that function similarly based on having 'a model' or the like in the wordage. The most commonly discussed example being the Waaagh! Banner I mentioned earlier.

Which states a a unit with a waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. I see that and agree with that.


I don't feel there is any way to convince me soI will just go. Maybe they will put it on the next FAQ.

Sorry Deadshot, but insaniak is right. As the rule states, if you are within range of A tyranid creature with sitw, you roll an extra d6. This is an inclusive term, referring to any tyranid within range. It's a permissive ruleset, so unless it explicitly says something it doesn't happen. For it to be an extra d6 for each tyranid, it would have to refer to EACH model within range.

grrr

Deadshot wrote:Which states a a unit with a waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. I see that and agree with that.

So why would you think that SitW works differently, when it is worded the same way?

broodstar wrote:

d-usa wrote:

broodstar wrote:well my question with this is why did they change is to say "within 12" on a SitW rolls an extra dice"?

If a psyker has his own special rule that allows him to roll 3D6 at all times, then there would be no downside to him using his abilities within 12 inches because he already uses 3D6 anyway.

Changing the wording to +1 D6 always makes it more risky to use irregardless of the initial number of dice used.

What psychic powers are taken on 3D6, one, name one?

I was not talking about psychic powers in particular, I was talking about special characters, wargear items, or other special rules that may give a psyker the ability to roll 3D6 on a regular basis. I don't have every entry of every Codex memorized, so I don't know if such a rule exists. But if there are other rules that increase the total to 3D6 then it will now stack with SitW.

The fancy folks at GW have play test rules for 6th Ed and play test rules for new books coming out. Maybe there will be rules in there that will be inpacted by this change. Who knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broodstar wrote:The Original

Any enemy psyker that takes a Psychic test within 12" of a Tyranid with Shadow in the Warp special rule must take the test on 3D6 and suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll on any double 1 or double 6.

The Amendment

Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

Under the original ruling, did you roll a Perils of the Warp attack for each Tyranid in range? So if there was one Tyranid, you rolled one test with 3D6, if there was two Tyranids you rolled two tests with 3D6, if there were three Tyranids you rolled three separate tests with 3D6?

If you didn't, why not?

broodstar wrote: What psychic powers are taken on 3D6, one, name one?

An Eldar Farseer with "Runes of Witnesing" rolls 3d6 for psykic powers, if he is now within 12" from a SitW Nid he will have to test on 4d6. I dont bevive there is a single army that forces players to roll more than 2d6 for standared psykic abilitys. Just certain wargear.

Nicorex wrote:

broodstar wrote: What psychic powers are taken on 3D6, one, name one?

An Eldar Farseer with "Runes of Witnesing" rolls 3d6 for psykic powers, if he is now within 12" from a SitW Nid he will have to test on 4d6. I dont bevive there is a single army that forces players to roll more than 2d6 for standared psykic abilitys. Just certain wargear.

I am vindicated

insaniak wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Which states a a unit with a waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. I see that and agree with that.

So why would you think that SitW works differently, when it is worded the same way?

Because it isn't worded the same. A Waaaagh banner


"A unit including a Waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. "

We all agree they don't stack.


SitW is worded differently. IMO at least.

I am sorry but I cannot be convibced that SitW is non cumulative.

Deadshot wrote:I am sorry but I cannot be convibced that SitW is non cumulative.

Why not?
Name ONE situation where any modifier to a die roll stacks with itself.

Deadshot wrote:Because it isn't worded the same. A Waaaagh banner


"A unit including a Waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. "

And a psyker within range of a tyranid with SitW rolls an extra D6.

What, exactly, are you seeing as a difference?

helgrenze wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I am sorry but I cannot be convibced that SitW is non cumulative.

Why not?
Name ONE situation where any modifier to a die roll stacks with itself.

Possibly Runes of Warding, however, there was already one long back and forth of "They do!" "They don't!". I say POSSIBLY because there is no need to start that storm back up. That same argument also brings up the mention of SitW and why it should.shouldn't stack with itself. You would have to do a search for it however.

Psychic Communion. Reserve Rolls from special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Because it isn't worded the same. A Waaaagh banner


"A unit including a Waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. "

And a psyker within range of a tyranid with SitW rolls an extra D6.

What, exactly, are you seeing as a difference?

Because multiple dice are being added. It has suggestions of stacking. Waagh banners do not.

If you have 1 Warrior within 12", do you have a Tyranid within SitW in range?

If you have 10 Warriors within 12", do you have a Tyranid within SitW range?

Deadshot wrote:Because multiple dice are being added. It has suggestions of stacking. Waagh banners do not.

Yes, I get that's what you're claiming. I'm asking why you think they work differently.

The banner adds +1 to your WS for having a banner in the unit.
The SitW adds +1 D6 to your psychic test for having a Tyranid with SitW in range.

They're both using the same trigger. If 'a' relevant item is in the relevant place, then add the relevant thing.

So why does one stack, and the other not?

Actually the banner is not adding anything itself. A unit gains +1 WS because tgey included a banner. Otherwise it would read "A Banner gives a unit +1WS." In fact, then it would stack.

SitW forces a Psyker to roll an additional dice if in range of a creature with the rule. I don't see it as quite the same thing.

I guess it only matters against the games you play. My gaming group was the ones who told it to me this way and so I play it that way. Another group may see it another. TOs may read it anotger. YMMV.

Happyjew wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I am sorry but I cannot be convibced that SitW is non cumulative.

Why not?
Name ONE situation where any modifier to a die roll stacks with itself.

Possibly Runes of Warding, however, there was already one long back and forth of "They do!" "They don't!". I say POSSIBLY because there is no need to start that storm back up. That same argument also brings up the mention of SitW and why it should.shouldn't stack with itself. You would have to do a search for it however.

"Possibly" doesn't count. Afaik, GW has no rule anywhere that stacks modifiers to die rolls.

Reserve roll modfiers?

Actually there is one. the Autarch 'Master Strategist' special rule stacks. 'Master Strategist' allows you to add +1 to reserve rolls, and GW clarified that it does indeed stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q. If an army has two Autarchs, does it get +2 to its Reserve rolls? (p29)
A. The player may choose each turn whether to add +1, +2 or no bonus to his reserve rolls.

However,

Q: If I have more than one Hive Tyrant with the Hive Commander ability, do their bonuses to reserve rolls stack? Also, do I get to outflank with one Troops unit, or one Troops unit per Hive Tyrant with this upgrade? (p34)
A: No, the reserve roll bonuses do not stack. You can only choose to outflank with a single unit of Troops, regardless of how many Hive Tyrants you have with this ability.

Tge same would be true for other reserve modifiers like Psychic Communion.

Also, IG reserve roll bonuses do not stack:

Q. If you take two Astropaths or two Officers of the Fleet, do their +1/-1 to reserve rolls stack? (p31)
A. No. The advantage of having multiples of these Regimental Advisors is that you can still gain the benefit of the Telepathic Relay/Intercept Reserves rules should one Astropath/Officer of the Fleet be killed. The confusion created by having so many advisors simultaneously vying for a Commander’s attention negates any potential benefit.