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I routinely get schooled by people who play a lot of TWC. I've tried differing tactics to beat them, most of which involve shooting them as almost nothing in my dex can go toe to toe in CC. My question, how do other CSM players deal with TWC? What works? What doesn't?

Lash them, keep them back/bunch them up for oblits to plasma cannon. A last ditch volley of rapid fire TL plasma from the oblits is also very effective.

DP's or Zerkers can deal with a weakened unit.

Demolisher cannon?

Kevlar wrote:Demolisher cannon?

I've found DC's to be mediocre and dealing with them at best. They can't ID them, and many of them have 3++. Worst part is, they're assaulting on turn 2 so you really only have 1 chance to bug em down before they shred your army to pieces. I don't get how they're only 10 points more than most Terminators.

bmoleski wrote:

Kevlar wrote:Demolisher cannon?

I've found DC's to be mediocre and dealing with them at best. They can't ID them, and many of them have 3++. Worst part is, they're assaulting on turn 2 so you really only have 1 chance to bug em down before they shred your army to pieces. I don't get how they're only 10 points more than most Terminators.

Yes they can. S10>T5.

If it's a full wolfstar, expensive and including one or more HQ characters, I try to delay it (Lash helps) and kill the scoring units.

If it's something a bit less expensive/overwhelming, Lash again helps to delay it, then I try to weaken it with some shooting (Lash+plasmacannons can put some good wounds on there, and rapidfiring TL plasma from Oblits is also good the turn when you finally have to charge), then lash the TWC into an extended line, and charge them from both ends with either two daemon princes, or a DP and Greater Daemon. Of course Abaddon or Kharn could take the place of one DP. Dreadnoughts can also help; just keep them out of contact with a Fist or Thunder Hammer. If you extend out a line of TWC you can potentially prevent one or more middle models from attacking you back at all. Especially ICs.

Avatar 720 wrote:

bmoleski wrote:

Kevlar wrote:Demolisher cannon?

I've found DC's to be mediocre and dealing with them at best. They can't ID them, and many of them have 3++. Worst part is, they're assaulting on turn 2 so you really only have 1 chance to bug em down before they shred your army to pieces. I don't get how they're only 10 points more than most Terminators.

Yes they can. S10>T5.

My bad, I was thinking battle cannons (as in the Defiler weapon)

bmoleski wrote:I routinely get schooled by people who play a lot of TWC. I've tried differing tactics to beat them, most of which involve shooting them as almost nothing in my dex can go toe to toe in CC. My question, how do other CSM players deal with TWC? What works? What doesn't?

They don't. They die horribly. Which leaves them a couple of options:
1. rage quit 40k
2. rage quit chaos
3. refuse to play the space wolf guy
4. continue to lose.

In all seriousness, if you're playing chaos you don't have a good answer to thunderwolves. Your least bad answer is to run dreads and defilers with lots of close combat weapons and try to get them into combat. Even then though it's a tough fight. Another thing you can do is run lots of terminators with combi-plasmaguns and just hose the unit down with plasma attacks, although that has its own problems. You won't be able to keep them away from you with lash of submission. Beasts move too fast and anyway they have good psykers that shut it down frequently, to say nothing of a million missile launcher guys who can kill the demon prince on sight. Abaddon is about the equivalent of a thunderwolf lord in close combat, but usually a good deal more expensive and more vulnerable since he only has a 4++. I would rather have 3 dreadnoughts in that fight than abaddon for just a few more points.

GreatGunz wrote:

bmoleski wrote:I routinely get schooled by people who play a lot of TWC. I've tried differing tactics to beat them, most of which involve shooting them as almost nothing in my dex can go toe to toe in CC. My question, how do other CSM players deal with TWC? What works? What doesn't?

They don't. They die horribly. Which leaves them a couple of options:
1. rage quit 40k
2. rage quit chaos
3. refuse to play the space wolf guy
4. continue to lose.

In all seriousness, if you're playing chaos you don't have a good answer to thunderwolves. Your least bad answer is to run dreads and defilers with lots of close combat weapons and try to get them into combat. Even then though it's a tough fight. Another thing you can do is run lots of terminators with combi-plasmaguns and just hose the unit down with plasma attacks, although that has its own problems. You won't be able to keep them away from you with lash of submission. Beasts move too fast and anyway they have good psykers that shut it down frequently, to say nothing of a million missile launcher guys who can kill the demon prince on sight. Abaddon is about the equivalent of a thunderwolf lord in close combat, but usually a good deal more expensive and more vulnerable since he only has a 4++. I would rather have 3 dreadnoughts in that fight than abaddon for just a few more points.

Yeah TWC by themselves is enough of a pain, but when they get spam-happy with Long Fangs as well.....that's an annoying fight for sure. Thanks for the advice though. I'll need to pick up some Termies and Dreads for my army as I don't have any yet, but I wanted some anyway so it's all good.

Good luck. Thunderwolves are just one more reason to hate the imperium with a true, burning, eternal hatred...

Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.
Less whining and more thinking about tactics please.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.
Less whining and more thinking about tactics please.

Normally I wouldn't say this (being a Space Wolves player myself), but yeah: coming from a Space Wolf player, that's little consolation... If the TWC didn't have Storm Shields then the simple answer would be Dreads and Vindis. As it is, Ragnar's advice is your best bet.

Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.
Less whining and more thinking about tactics please.

I concur, both on both points. CSM have the tools to handle TWC. The problems units like Long Fangs present can be mitigated by good play (making good use of BLOS terrain which you should have and refused flank). If he's running a large decked out TWC unit (especially if with a lord) he won't have that many points left for anything else. Anything less is easily dealt with by Oblits, DP's and Zerkers.

OP should definitely try the lash princes, so he will have his own personal experience of why they don't counter thunderwolves. After playing 3 or 4 games with lash he'll realize that they only give you a 1 turn delay, 2 turns at best, and don't really solve the problem at all. When he's tired of getting wiped on turn 3 instead of turn 2, and starts looking for an actual solution to the problem, he'll realize that there's no way to avoid fighting thunderwolves in close combat, and that the only way to kill them fast enough to live through the assault is to instakill them wtih dreadnought close combat weapons. Then he'll agree with me that what you actually need to do is load up on dreadnoughts and defilers and get into combat sooner, not later, so your dreads don't get taken out by enemy shooting.

I'm not gonna bother with Lash. I've use it before and at best it will delay them a turn. I'm gonna pick up some dreads since I want a few anyway, and try them out. Thanks for all the advice though.

Responses have included:

Lash plus templates;
Rapid fire plasma; and
Close combat dreadnoughts.

I find that the Thousand Sons work fine and can adequately fulfill all of the above mentioned responses to TWC.

Two thousand sons models are available for the same price as a single TWC model. Thus, you have the same number of wounds available. The invulnerable save works to keep them in combat for more turns than any other CSM unit will and the Sorcerer uses his force weapon to insta-kill one every turn. Plus, the Sorcerer cannot be specifically targeted in combat.

Additionally, the Inferno Bolts prevent TWC saves except for the storm shield. A unit of thousand sons can often put more wounds from shooting on a unit of TWC than the demolisher cannon or plasma cannons will. And Wind of Chaos is a nice template weapon that is quite effective against the TWC.

Add a character with a second force weapon (or Abaddon) and you will find that for roughly the same point cost as his TWC unit you will have a unit capable of matching/destroying it and your unit will be able to hold objectives as well. Since Obliterators are a natural compliment to thousand sons troops you can use them to bolster the thousand sons shooting.

If the SW player is going to give storm shield to all of his models that increases the price per model such that you can include three and a half thousand sons models for each TWC model.

The down-side to thousand sons is that TWC have a huge mobility advantage over them. You will just have to adopt tactics the same way you would when facing any army that beats you in mobility...

Thats actually really interesting. I think it could work. 2 squads each with a sorcerer who has warp time can rapid fire the unit and kill a good chunk of the wolves. The sorcerer could then force-weapon the survivors. The space wolf player cant pick out the librarian and it will take him a long time to get through all those 4++ saves. Besides that, it's delicious to kill space wolves with thousand sons. I like it. Good creativity. That hadn't even occurred to me.

Don't use warptime.... It isn't that good anymore

I like the sound of Thousand Sons - It would finally give them a purpose that people can accept

Thousand Sons? Viable? In 5th? Blasphemy lol. But seriously, I really like that idea. If I use them as troop choices, and supplement with Dreads for my elites, I'll have him fighting an uphill battle instead of me.

If you're going to use TSons, then don't get Wind of Chaos. TWC have a minimum charge range of 19" and a maximum of 24" (6" Move, 1-6" Run, 12" Assault); you're not going to find yourself in template range unless you're already in combat with them, or they've jumped into combat with something else.

If you are charged, the 3+/4++ of TSons can almost ensure their survival, and Gift of Chaos has a 1/6 chance of turning one of the wolves into a Spawn there and then, not only denying him any saves, but also reducing model count. It might not be a large chance, but it's something, and in the endless combat it'll be useful.

I would simply say obliterators, 3 dreads with dual DCCW, extra armor and heavy flamers (which is 360 points for all 3!) and then whatever else your list wants.

You also might want to look into using a slanssh lord with a demon weapon. Would make short work of them pretty easily.

Beyond that, Possessed with the mark of tzneech are an excellent way to tie them up for a long time.

You can also try using a large squad of lesser summoned demons and keep them in melee most of the game.

A greater demon could be fun too.

There's not much else besides hordes of khorne berzerkers that would really put a dent in them, besides winds of chaos.

Something that Thousand Sons are actually good at: reducing units of elite 3+ models who stay out of cover.

Admittedly, that's pretty much all they're good at.

TWC have a charge range of 19-24, so roll your Difficult Terrain test first: if you get a good enough roll (6) move up and rapidfire (he's more likely to be 18" away than 19, just to be safe). If not, move back and force them to take another round of shooting.

Pretty much any other unit choice would be better, to be honest. Thousand Sons aren't really known for their versatility. But even if they do get stuck in combat with TWC, they stand a very decent chance of actually winning the combat.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.

This sounds like your best bet, to me at least.


But why is Ragnar helping Chaos? That guy must be tainted, and I am not talking about the organisms that gave him the runs from the tacos he ate last night. He is tainted with Chaos!

TSons won't work. Between str 4 vs t5, storm shields, and wound allocation you won't put a dent in them with bolters. And once they get into close combat the 4+ inv isn't going to help. They get way too many attacks.

I say 3 vindicators.

I'm thinking my best bet is still going to be Dreadnoughts. They have the same Initiative as TWC, so any damage results are gonna be ignored until I hit back, so worst case scenario we both take some damage. And since a Dread is so much less expensive than most TWC units, I'll most likely be making my points back. Can TWC get Furious Charge?

I like the sounds of the thousand suns idea, maybe GW was even giving a hint by placing a t-son torso on the mounted wolf lord base ha ha

granted it is rent and torn

Hoss wrote:I like the sounds of the thousand suns idea, maybe GW was even giving a hint by placing a t-son torso on the mounted wolf lord base ha ha

granted it is rent and torn

That's a good point. I didn't think about that lol. Next time I play against SW, I'm definitely gonna field some Dreads and TS and see how it goes. My buddy plays wolves so he'll be ok with me testing stuff out.

bmoleski wrote:I'm thinking my best bet is still going to be Dreadnoughts. They have the same Initiative as TWC, so any damage results are gonna be ignored until I hit back, so worst case scenario we both take some damage. And since a Dread is so much less expensive than most TWC units, I'll most likely be making my points back. Can TWC get Furious Charge?

If Ragnar's nearby, potentially, once per game.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

bmoleski wrote:I'm thinking my best bet is still going to be Dreadnoughts. They have the same Initiative as TWC, so any damage results are gonna be ignored until I hit back, so worst case scenario we both take some damage. And since a Dread is so much less expensive than most TWC units, I'll most likely be making my points back. Can TWC get Furious Charge?

If Ragnar's nearby, potentially, once per game.

I've never actually seen Ragnar played though.....ever. Is he common? I see Njal a lot, and Logan as well. My buddy even plays Bjorn a lot. But I've never seen Ragnar.

My namesake doesn't show up much in games. Certainly not much compared to Runepriests, Logan, and Njal.