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bmoleski wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

bmoleski wrote:I'm thinking my best bet is still going to be Dreadnoughts. They have the same Initiative as TWC, so any damage results are gonna be ignored until I hit back, so worst case scenario we both take some damage. And since a Dread is so much less expensive than most TWC units, I'll most likely be making my points back. Can TWC get Furious Charge?

If Ragnar's nearby, potentially, once per game.

I've never actually seen Ragnar played though.....ever. Is he common? I see Njal a lot, and Logan as well. My buddy even plays Bjorn a lot. But I've never seen Ragnar.

Njal and Logan both bring something unique to a force, while Ragnar is basically just a good fighter. Space wolves are spoiled for those so he's not really necessary. Alot of people don't bring bjorn because of the "price of failure" rule, which really puts pressure on the space wolf player to keep that guy safe. Hard to keep any armored target safe when there are so many meltaguns and missile launchers out there...

Do you mean Living Relic? Heck, that's half the reason to bring him. It's not exactly hard to have a SW model in contact with him at the end of the game if he dies, and between Venerable, front armor 13, and his 5++ save, he's pretty tough to kill in the first place. If he dies in an objective mission, he instantly becomes another objective. Which is extremely sweet in Capture & Control, especially.

He's tougher than the average dread, but with everyone tooled up to shoot down armor, and the added incentive to kill him created by his special rule, he's not that tough to get rid. I'm not a space wolf player, but when I talk to people are it's always the liability that he brings with him that they mention.

Av13 makes a big difference against the most numerous long-range antitank weapons, MLs and ACs. While a lucky shot is always possible, and getting hit with multiple meltaguns will likely do it, unless you're running him blindly up the field without good support, that shouldn't be happening much. I expect the players you're talking about are not very good and/or haven't used him. Reece Robbins (Reecius on here) is a good example of a high-level SW player on the national tournament scene who has used Bjorn a lot and swears by him.

I find the idea of using Thousand Sons to be quite intriguing. I used to love fielding my Sons, but I often found them somewhat lacklustre since most people would take extra care to keep important units near cover whenever they saw Sons deployed. While wounding on 5s could be something of a problem, a TWC with storm shield costs 3.5 times as much as a Son, which means you have more models to dakka/stall the wolves until you can pile in something killy to assist them. Your Sons are unlikely to ever kill a unit of TWC, but they should slow and thin them out nicely.

Defilers and Dreadnoughts work pretty well against them.

You can combine this with Lash to make sure you base the characters or avoid Power fists.

Are Chaos Dreads now elites? Army builder says so. Run defilers and dreads feth vindicators they are one shot and cant assault. TWC are tough but I1 is still I1 hammers.

Edit: Extreme ninjaed me....

Also, if you don't want to run Thousand Sons to tarpit/fight them, Abbadon + Tzeentch Possessed in a Land Raider can be alot of fun and just as resilient. Plus the possessed are naturally S5.

GreatGunz wrote:He's tougher than the average dread, but with everyone tooled up to shoot down armor, and the added incentive to kill him created by his special rule, he's not that tough to get rid. I'm not a space wolf player, but when I talk to people are it's always the liability that he brings with him that they mention.

But here's the problem. One, he's tough, so you have to dedicate to taking him down and two, he completely changes the game if he goes down in an objective mission.

So, do you shoot him down in my deployment zone where you take the chance of giving me an extra objective? It is unlikely that you can just fire one shot either, so you have to dedicate to him and while you're doing that the rest of my army is shooting you to heck and back. Or do you let him advance so you have more of a chance of capturing him if he dies, but also take the chance that you can't take him down before he gets to you.

He presents your opponent with a choice that doesn't really have a good answer. Also, AV13, Venerable and 5++ is nothing to sneeze at as M said.

Mannahnin wrote:Av13 makes a big difference against the most numerous long-range antitank weapons, MLs and ACs. While a lucky shot is always possible, and getting hit with multiple meltaguns will likely do it, unless you're running him blindly up the field without good support, that shouldn't be happening much. I expect the players you're talking about are not very good and/or haven't used him. Reece Robbins (Reecius on here) is a good example of a high-level SW player on the national tournament scene who has used Bjorn a lot and swears by him.

Well I don't want to speak to the quality of those space wolf players. I've always found them challenging enough. I think Bjorn is underwhelming offensively, considering what he costs. He's essentially just a dread with an extra attack and an extra point of weapon skill in close combat, for 270 points. He's pretty tough, but you don't win by being hard to kill. His ability to reroll deployment is strong, to be certain, but has to be balanced against his high cost and the liability he creates when he dies. It could be an asset in the 2 objectives mission, but it's definitely a liability in the kill points mission, and not necessarily any advantage in the d3 +2 objectives mission. In the last two missions, at least, it limits the space wolf player's flexibility in so much as it forces him to commit to that one area. It's an assaulting army, to be sure, but it's hardly the only one out there. I would want to retain as much flexibility as possible, as late into the game as possible, as a general rule.

I don't think Bjorn is unplayable or anything, and I'd be curious to see a battle report or two where Reecius really excelled with Bjorn. But I think even he would have to admit that Bjorn is expensive for the offense he provides, and a potential liability in atleast 2 out of the 3 mission types.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:He's tougher than the average dread, but with everyone tooled up to shoot down armor, and the added incentive to kill him created by his special rule, he's not that tough to get rid. I'm not a space wolf player, but when I talk to people are it's always the liability that he brings with him that they mention.

But here's the problem. One, he's tough, so you have to dedicate to taking him down and two, he completely changes the game if he goes down in an objective mission.

So, do you shoot him down in my deployment zone where you take the chance of giving me an extra objective? It is unlikely that you can just fire one shot either, so you have to dedicate to him and while you're doing that the rest of my army is shooting you to heck and back. Or do you let him advance so you have more of a chance of capturing him if he dies, but also take the chance that you can't take him down before he gets to you.

He presents your opponent with a choice that doesn't really have a good answer. Also, AV13, Venerable and 5++ is nothing to sneeze at as M said.

Since I play assaulting armies, I would either try to kill him in assault or blast him with a meltagun. I certainly wouldn't try to kill him downfield, because of the objective issue you mentioned, and because he's not really that strong in close combat. He's just hard to kill. His abilities are good but look at what you pay for him. 270 points is a huge commitment. Something like 12% of your army in a 2000 point game. So there's as much pressure on you as the space wolf player to get your worth out of him as there is for me as your opponent to take him out.

GreatGunz wrote:I don't think Bjorn is unplayable or anything, and I'd be curious to see a battle report or two where Reecius really excelled with Bjorn. But I think even he would have to admit that Bjorn is expensive for the offense he provides, and a potential liability in atleast 2 out of the 3 mission types.

Check these out: (Just searched the Battle Reports forum for the word 'Bjorn', I'm sure there are more.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424563.page
Reecius vs jy2's wraithwing, SW loss.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/406687.page#3498544
Reecius at 'Ard Boyz finals with Bjorn (believe he got there with Bjorn as well)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/400075.page#3390024
Reecius win's the Grand Waagh with Bjorn

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/398217.page
Reecius wins 'AB Semis with Bjorn

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395823.page
Reecius at Socal Smackdown with Bjorn, wins.

He's also #26 in the country for 40k at RHQ.
http://www.rankingshq.com/public/playerprofile.aspx?PlayerId=5333
Looks like #4 at the Adepticon 40k champs.

I think we can say he's a good player.

Since I play assaulting armies, I would either try to kill him in assault or blast him with a meltagun. I certainly wouldn't try to kill him downfield, because of the objective issue you mentioned, and because he's not really that strong in close combat. He's just hard to kill. His abilities are good but look at what you pay for him. 270 points is a huge commitment. Something like 12% of your army in a 2000 point game. So there's as much pressure on you as the space wolf player to get your worth out of him as there is for me as your opponent to take him out.

Assaulting Bjorn is probably not the best plan either. He is resilient, accurate and drops S10 on your head. He also has improved shooting with his BS6, which means with a PC you can reroll scatter.

I throw down a 250+ point TWC Lord in my SW all the time. Really, he is a great toolbox character. Check out Reece's reports and then see if you feel differently.

I really like berzerkers for dealing with thunderwolves. S5 and init5, lots of attacks, and hitting on 3+. Lash helps, as do rhinos, as do a supporting unit like plague marines to soak up the fist and wolf lord.

The biggest drawback of chaos is that they are just slightly overcosted in some areas. Well, versus a twolf list, the twolves are so expensive with storm shields that chaos actually comes back out on top, and without stormshields chaos lash can remove cover just in time to kill them with ap3 or ap2 wounds, which chaos does have a bit of.

Joe Mama wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.

This sounds like your best bet, to me at least.


But why is Ragnar helping Chaos? That guy must be tainted, and I am not talking about the organisms that gave him the runs from the tacos he ate last night. He is tainted with Chaos!

1. I'm just too awesome to get tainted and 2. I gotta show off with my strategic genius .

@Topic: The Lashes aren't there to "delay" a possible charge, you simply use them to bunch up the whole Thunderwolf unit and then you pulp them with Vindicator and Plasma Cannon templates (and if they get pinned you get yet another round of shooting at them). Can't get any easier than that. Even if your opponent brings a Rune Priest you'll still most likely get one of the lashes off (and that one should suffice to get the job done unless you roll awfully).

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:[@Topic: The Lashes aren't there to "delay" a possible charge, you simply use them to bunch up the whole Thunderwolf unit and then you pulp them with Vindicator and Plasma Cannon templates (and if they get pinned you get yet another round of shooting at them). Can't get any easier than that. Even if your opponent brings a Rune Priest you'll still most likely get one of the lashes off (and that one should suffice to get the job done unless you roll awfully).

You can also delay their assault by a turn with a decent lash- between moving them backwards and often putting them in difficult terrain, they can lose a turn in getting to you pretty easily.

Right, you can bunch them up *and* move them backwards ~7 inches!

Yup, and say "most of these guys will be out of terrain and in a nice clear spot with no cover; except THAT guy- which one is the most expensive/important? AH! That dude with the thunder hammer & storm shield! THAT guy is in difficult terrain. Feel free to allocate shooting wounds on him, friend!"

pretre wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:
Since I play assaulting armies, I would either try to kill him in assault or blast him with a meltagun. I certainly wouldn't try to kill him downfield, because of the objective issue you mentioned, and because he's not really that strong in close combat. He's just hard to kill. His abilities are good but look at what you pay for him. 270 points is a huge commitment. Something like 12% of your army in a 2000 point game. So there's as much pressure on you as the space wolf player to get your worth out of him as there is for me as your opponent to take him out.

Assaulting Bjorn is probably not the best plan either. He is resilient, accurate and drops S10 on your head. He also has improved shooting with his BS6, which means with a PC you can reroll scatter.

It's an excellent plan. He's initiative 3 and has 4 attacks. Most monstrous creatures are initiative 4 or better and will pulverize him with their higher weapon skill, higher number of base attacks, and high strength + monstrous creature special rule. They usually have invulnerable saves which are atleast as good as Bjorn's 5++. As soon as a weapon destroyed result comes up Bjorn's strength goes down to 6 and it's goodnight. He might have his good points but close combat prowess isn't one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Take 2 Lash Princes, Take 6-9 Obliterators. Take 2 Vindicators. Fill the rest of your army with effective units of your choice, Dead Thunderwolves.

This sounds like your best bet, to me at least.


But why is Ragnar helping Chaos? That guy must be tainted, and I am not talking about the organisms that gave him the runs from the tacos he ate last night. He is tainted with Chaos!

1. I'm just too awesome to get tainted and 2. I gotta show off with my strategic genius .

@Topic: The Lashes aren't there to "delay" a possible charge, you simply use them to bunch up the whole Thunderwolf unit and then you pulp them with Vindicator and Plasma Cannon templates (and if they get pinned you get yet another round of shooting at them). Can't get any easier than that. Even if your opponent brings a Rune Priest you'll still most likely get one of the lashes off (and that one should suffice to get the job done unless you roll awfully).

This is the first thing that every chaos player who is confronted with thunderwolves thinks of. If it actually worked out the way you're saying, CSM would be alot more competitive than they in fact are. Even if you have a 50% chance of totally destroying the opponent's formation with lash/plasma/vindicator, which you don't, that still wouldn't be very good odds. If you got 50% of the questions right on an exam, would you have passed? If your mechanic fixed your car 50% of the time, would you keep going to him? OP asked for a reliable way to deal with the situation, not one that works half the time on a good day.

Hi all.
Put 9 oblits on 2nd floor of a building(shud usually be at least one in your deloyment zone) try to get at least 1 objective close to them.

In 1500-1850 chances are that his twc deathstar is his only unit to contest/attack far away things. Dual lashes to bounch up the twc.
Keep one rhino on the objective close to the Oblits. Wait for twc to get closer to attack the home objective(s). Then unleash rapid plasma, or else stick with cannons. He cant reach your oblits on 2nd floor due to cav rules. Make sure to guard oblits from dualwielding melta teams, they hurt even with 4+ cover.

You should have at least two other troops( 5x plaguemarines with 2 melta is my personal fav. They should try to go for objectives far away from twc, or wait until they are dead.

Long fangs are a threat to oblits, but maybe even more to troops going forward, try to get them in cc.

At 1500 points you should have a fair chance, as this is where your list is optimal and he is limited on points. Above this is get more difficult for you.

Sample 1500p list I have successfully played against SW with several times. Ususally includes Long Fangs x 3 units, 3scoring dual melta teams in lasplas razors,TWC and if points left, depending on TWC config, lasplas razors for long fangs as well.

1500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

HQ:
Daemon Prince
Wings 20
Mark of Slaanesh
Lash of Submission

Daemon Prince
Wings 20
Mark of Slaanesh
Lash of Submission

Troops:
Plague Marines x 5
Meltagun x2
Personal Icon
1 Rhino

Plague Marines x 5
Meltagun x2
1 Rhino

Plague Marines x 5
Meltagun x2
1 Rhino

Heavy Support:
Obliterators x 3

Obliterators x 3

Obliterators x 3
'
Icon on one squad in case you want to place one Oblit team in reserves for later.


Best regards
Robin

GreatGunz wrote:

pretre wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Since I play assaulting armies, I would either try to kill him in assault or blast him with a meltagun. I certainly wouldn't try to kill him downfield, because of the objective issue you mentioned, and because he's not really that strong in close combat. He's just hard to kill. His abilities are good but look at what you pay for him. 270 points is a huge commitment. Something like 12% of your army in a 2000 point game. So there's as much pressure on you as the space wolf player to get your worth out of him as there is for me as your opponent to take him out.

Assaulting Bjorn is probably not the best plan either. He is resilient, accurate and drops S10 on your head. He also has improved shooting with his BS6, which means with a PC you can reroll scatter.

It's an excellent plan. He's initiative 3 and has 4 attacks. Most monstrous creatures are initiative 4 or better and will pulverize him with their higher weapon skill, higher number of base attacks, and high strength + monstrous creature special rule. They usually have invulnerable saves which are atleast as good as Bjorn's 5++. As soon as a weapon destroyed result comes up Bjorn's strength goes down to 6 and it's goodnight. He might have his good points but close combat prowess isn't one of them.

How is an MC getting into contact with Bjorn in a SW army? Is he fighting by himself? The only MCs I can think of which have invulnerable saves, I4 or better, and WS better than his are Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. Only the latter of those has more base attacks, and it can't fly (except for Bloodthirsters). The only one which stands good odds of killing him in a round is the Bloodthirster. Seriously, units which actually worry Bjorn in HtH are pretty rare and the rest of the SW army should at least have some say in whether a BT or a Summoned Greater Daemon can get into Bjorn. You don't run Bjorn across the table unsupported. Neither do you hang back in your DZ. You take the force-multiplier effect of his re-roll for deployment/turn, you use him for fire support and combined charges or to bail out other more fragile units which have been assaulted.

GreatGunz wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:@Topic: The Lashes aren't there to "delay" a possible charge, you simply use them to bunch up the whole Thunderwolf unit and then you pulp them with Vindicator and Plasma Cannon templates (and if they get pinned you get yet another round of shooting at them). Can't get any easier than that. Even if your opponent brings a Rune Priest you'll still most likely get one of the lashes off (and that one should suffice to get the job done unless you roll awfully).

This is the first thing that every chaos player who is confronted with thunderwolves thinks of. If it actually worked out the way you're saying, CSM would be alot more competitive than they in fact are. Even if you have a 50% chance of totally destroying the opponent's formation with lash/plasma/vindicator, which you don't, that still wouldn't be very good odds. If you got 50% of the questions right on an exam, would you have passed? If your mechanic fixed your car 50% of the time, would you keep going to him? OP asked for a reliable way to deal with the situation, not one that works half the time on a good day.

The odds are normally much better than 50%. If you have only one lash and it's inside priest range you're looking at ~50%. If you have two lashers and both are in range the odds are ~75%. But if you keep even one lasher outside 24" of a Runepriest, the odds are very high. Which is part of why my lashers fly.

Mannahnin wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

pretre wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Since I play assaulting armies, I would either try to kill him in assault or blast him with a meltagun. I certainly wouldn't try to kill him downfield, because of the objective issue you mentioned, and because he's not really that strong in close combat. He's just hard to kill. His abilities are good but look at what you pay for him. 270 points is a huge commitment. Something like 12% of your army in a 2000 point game. So there's as much pressure on you as the space wolf player to get your worth out of him as there is for me as your opponent to take him out.

Assaulting Bjorn is probably not the best plan either. He is resilient, accurate and drops S10 on your head. He also has improved shooting with his BS6, which means with a PC you can reroll scatter.

It's an excellent plan. He's initiative 3 and has 4 attacks. Most monstrous creatures are initiative 4 or better and will pulverize him with their higher weapon skill, higher number of base attacks, and high strength + monstrous creature special rule. They usually have invulnerable saves which are atleast as good as Bjorn's 5++. As soon as a weapon destroyed result comes up Bjorn's strength goes down to 6 and it's goodnight. He might have his good points but close combat prowess isn't one of them.

How is an MC getting into contact with Bjorn in a SW army? Is he fighting by himself? The only MCs I can think of which have invulnerable saves, I4 or better, and WS better than his are Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. Only the latter of those has more base attacks, and it can't fly (except for Bloodthirsters). The only one which stands good odds of killing him in a round is the Bloodthirster. Seriously, units which actually worry Bjorn in HtH are pretty rare and the rest of the SW army should at least have some say in whether a BT or a Summoned Greater Daemon can get into Bjorn. You don't run Bjorn across the table unsupported. Neither do you hang back in your DZ. You take the force-multiplier effect of his re-roll for deployment/turn, you use him for fire support and combined charges or to bail out other more fragile units which have been assaulted.

There are alot of potential ways for it to happen. The swarm lord and his bodyguard could simply assault him. It's a notoriously difficult unit to get rid of. A blood thirster could jump out from behind a ruin. A Keeper of secrets has fleet, which is almost as good as flying. Any demon prince can do the same thing. A greater demon can come out of an aspiring champion and assault directly with no intervening space wolf shooting phase. Any space marine dreadnought is going to strike before Bjorn with strength 10 attacks. Kharne's axe gives him the 2d6 armor penetration that monstrous creatures normally get. Any terminator squad with a chain fist or two in it is going to make short work of Bjorn too. I could go on and on. Do you really think it's unlikely that Bjorn will get into close combat with something that can take him out? You don't even have to kill him, frankly. Once he loses his close combat weapon he isn't much good in assaults at all, and you're not under nearly as much pressure to deal with him.

GreatGunz wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:@Topic: The Lashes aren't there to "delay" a possible charge, you simply use them to bunch up the whole Thunderwolf unit and then you pulp them with Vindicator and Plasma Cannon templates (and if they get pinned you get yet another round of shooting at them). Can't get any easier than that. Even if your opponent brings a Rune Priest you'll still most likely get one of the lashes off (and that one should suffice to get the job done unless you roll awfully).

This is the first thing that every chaos player who is confronted with thunderwolves thinks of. If it actually worked out the way you're saying, CSM would be alot more competitive than they in fact are. Even if you have a 50% chance of totally destroying the opponent's formation with lash/plasma/vindicator, which you don't, that still wouldn't be very good odds. If you got 50% of the questions right on an exam, would you have passed? If your mechanic fixed your car 50% of the time, would you keep going to him? OP asked for a reliable way to deal with the situation, not one that works half the time on a good day.

The odds are normally much better than 50%. If you have only one lash and it's inside priest range you're looking at ~50%. If you have two lashers and both are in range the odds are ~75%. But if you keep even one lasher outside 24" of a Runepriest, the odds are very high. Which is part of why my lashers fly.

The odds not just for the lash to go off, but for the plasma and vindicator shots to actually ace the squad. All together. You don't just have to get the lash to go off (33% chance with Njal, but lets assume you lash the same squad twice and double that, so 66%), you also have to hit with it (84% chance on a demon prince, less on a sorcerer iirc), and then you have to roll high enough to clump the whole unit together (let's say 6 inches, so something like 60% odds there.) Then you have to have clear line of sight with all those plasmacannons (let's say 90%, assuming a chaos player who has the terrain working for him and a space wolf player who doesn't know what he's doing.) Now that we've gone through all that just to get the lash to go off, let's look at the obliterators. I'll give you 9 of them, and we'll assume they're all in range. It won't matter. Each shoots 1 plasma cannon shot, which he has to roll to hit with (84% it doesn't overheat, roughly 66% to scatter 6 inches or less), then roll to wound (84%), then it has to get past thunder shields (33%), and everyone in the squad has to take atleast one wound before any models actually die, so if we assume a unit of 5 thunderwolves + 1 lord + 2 fenrisian wolves, you have to deal 8 wounds before even one thunderwolf model gets removed.

So, for the lash part you need 0.66 x 0.84 x 0.6 x 0.9 = 0.3
And for the plasmacannons you need 0.84 x 0.66 x 0.84 x 0.33 = 0.15 for each shot, and I gave you 9 of them and assumed 3 wounds apiece so 0.15 x 27 = 4.1
You didn't even kill one thunderwolf, and you shot them with two demon princes and 9 obliterators.
But we still have to factor in that the lash only does its job 30% of the time, so it's even worse. We have to cut that 4.1 in 3, which gives you 1.24. Which is pitiful. There are simply too many dice rolls involved for this to be a workable tactic.

Almost none of the units you described as taking on Bjorn in HtH can reliably and quickly get there. And only the stuff that's S7 or better +2d6 can reliably penetrate him. Chaos Daemons' big guys have the best chances, but that book has other issues and limitations when facing SW. He's certainly not invulnerable but he's not easy to take out by any means.

I agree that you need to have multiple factors work to get a really good lash+plasma/vindi shot to play out the way we'd all like it to. That said, your assumptions are off and so your calculations are not accurate. Remember that you need to have Njal or another RP somewhere that I can't position my lasher (with a 12" move) so that he's within 24" of any member of the TW squad, while being outside 24" of your RP. If you can't manage that, the RP is a non-factor.

Mannahnin wrote:Almost none of the units you described as taking on Bjorn in HtH can reliably and quickly get there. And only the stuff that's S7 or better +2d6 can reliably penetrate him. Chaos Daemons' big guys have the best chances, but that book has other issues and limitations when facing SW. He's certainly not invulnerable but he's not easy to take out by any means.

Yeah he's tough. Granted. But he's not very strong offensively. I don't want to get into who can get there and who can't because that's about the choices players make and the way alot of dice rolls turn out, but if you just compare stat lines its clear that there are plenty of things out there that can deal with Bjorn.

I agree that you need to have multiple factors work to get a really good lash+plasma/vindi shot to play out the way we'd all like it to. That said, your assumptions are off and so your calculations are not accurate. Remember that you need to have Njal or another RP somewhere that I can't position my lasher (with a 12" move) so that he's within 24" of any member of the TW squad, while being outside 24" of your RP. If you can't manage that, the RP is a non-factor.

Look even if you take the Rune Priest out and assume that lash always works perfectly for the chaos player, it still won't make a difference. The chaos player won't even kill one thunder wolf. It doesn't matter how you tweak the scenario. The odds are so overwhelmingly against the chaos player that it won't come close to working, not even half the time. Ragnar is just plain wrong.

What's "working"? Annihilating the squad? You can simultaneously delay it (moving it backwards and into difficult) and weaken it (getting some plasma wounds onto the unit) before it gets close. Those are useful things.

As for Bjorn, YMMV. I don't think he's particularly hard to shield from the few things which have good odds of hurting him. WS6, S10 and A4 are pretty good against most units, many of which can't hurt him at all.

Well yeah, I assume that's what ragnar meant when he said "pulp the squad." I don't think chaos has a good shooting solution to thunderwolves. They're just too tough. The chaos player needs to look for an assault solution, lash them forward, hit them with as much firepower as possible, then charge in with everything, including defilers and dreads if he has them. It's still a tough fight, but he can win.

I'll agree that shooting alone won't do it without a lot of luck (like several direct hits with plasmacannons). But it can definitely hang a bunch of wounds on them/weaken them enough to be finished in HtH.

Tank shock them and Tank shock them some more.

Tank shocking is a great idea anytime they don't have a LD10 character attached. They're only Ld8 on their own.

Mannahnin wrote:Tank shocking is a great idea anytime they don't have a LD10 character attached. They're only Ld8 on their own.

In general, players should tank shock more. I can't count the number of times I have driven units off with a weaponless Exorcist or Rhino. Even Ld10 crazy units. Not to mention moving folks out of terrain for assault and bunching them up for templates.

There should be a 'How to Tank Shock' article on Dakka.