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Death-Dealing Devastator




Omaha, NE



The word just got sent out - the current 2011-2012 season will finish out with the Throne of Skulls as planned, but they're not going to have a circuit next season.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/30 03:14:17


 
   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

So does that mean no support for large events or just no Golden Ticket/Throne of Skulls event?

On a sidenote I can't say I'm shocked. I haven't been able to get anyone to respond to me the prize vouchers they were suppose to provide to the winners of our local GT....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 17:51:19


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Union, Kentucky United States

Correct Hulk, I would share the email but after reading the underscore of it GW if not allowing any of the recipients to do so and at legal advice it seems best not to play with fire. This is not suprising as Ed was the forerunner for this and for me this is a huge crush and nail in the coffin with GW. Though personally I will continue to sell bits etc as that is my business I think honestly I for one will find something else to play.

Listen, my children, as I pass onto you the truth behind Willy Wonka and his factory. For every wonka bar ever created in existance, Mr. Wonka sacraficed a single Oompa Loompa to the god of chocolate, Hearshys. Then, he drank the blood of the fallen orange men because he fed them a constant supply of sugary chocolate so they all became diabetic and had creamy, sweet-tasting blood that willy could put into each and every Wonka bar. That is the REAL story behind willy wonka's Slaughter House!  
   
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Battlefield Professional





Los Angeles

TimmyMWD wrote:The word just got sent out - the current 2011-2012 season will finish out with the Throne of Skulls as planned, but they're not going to have a circuit next season.

Not surprising considering GW's current move away from a competitive play focus across all platforms. It'll be up to the community to determine a marquee event now. As it should be.

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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

@Empchild

Which part was correct?

No support at all (i.e. no prize support)?

Or just no Golden Ticket/Throne of Skulls?

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REally? Could they Feth things up anymore? Granted in the Widwest we have an awesome Fantasy Tourney circut without a signifigant ammount of GW support(Mostly terrain pieces these days) But it is discouraging for new events to arise without assistance.

3000
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Circuit is dead. But not. GW support diminished to small for all events after year 1, regardless of size. The circuit is still alive, just minus gw vouchers, $500/year in unboxed sprue terrain, and lanyards.
   
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Minneapolis, MN

Hulksmash wrote:@Empchild

Which part was correct?

No support at all (i.e. no prize support)?

Or just no Golden Ticket/Throne of Skulls?


Interesting. Dark Star never gave out the GW prize vouchers? They even had those as part of the advertisement for the GT....

That's bizarre, and really quite unprofessional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 18:12:14


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On a boat, Trying not to die.

Meh. GW doesn't care about the NE of America, so I don't care.

Now there's a free weekend to play more Kill Team at my FLGS!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 18:13:35


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Death-Dealing Devastator




Omaha, NE

MVBrandt wrote:Circuit is dead. But not. GW support diminished to small for all events after year 1, regardless of size. The circuit is still alive, just minus gw vouchers, $500/year in unboxed sprue terrain, and lanyards.


Mike - did d you get add'l info?

I don't know how you interpret minimal support from an email that uses the word discontinue.

Edited to exclude the content of the email - don't want to get in trouble

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/28 18:26:44


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Timmy I'm saying the support offered after year 1 to all circuit events regardless of size was so relatively minimal, it didn't impact much that they formally ended it.

What I don't get is how they quantified the drop. NOVA survey showed attendees dropped over $100k in hobby purchases prepping their armies for the 2011 NOVA. Hardly seems a poor investment that GW put around $800 in value to support that kind of economic activity.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Omaha, NE

Well I would certainly agree there. The independent tournaments will survive just fine - the official GW support was nice but not necessary. However, the prize support was nice to mitigate cost - that's less money I'll be able to put into the debate program from the Bugeater GT this year unless I find other sponsors to cover the first place prizes. It's just disappointing - their reasoning was they want to promote a variety of events ... yet the circuit allowed TOs the freedom to create dozens of iterations of warhammer tournaments.

The decision was more disappointing for conceptual reasons than fiscal ones.
   
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh





Union, Kentucky United States

Being as somone who fronted all of the cash for my local tourney the GW support helped a ton. Sad to say in my case it didn't arrive till several days before the event so I had no time to put it together but it got used instead to help raise money for the charity I donate the proceds to (thank you all for that btw as those). What was great was as a organizer we got a lot of help but publicity wise, product, and prizes to hand out. This helps free up cash etc for otherthings for the event. As the one who has fronted money on both occassions without any help from others that $500 some of you scoff at is a huge help. I don't think some of you have a clue what it really costs to run a indy GT financially. You have to rent the hall, buy the materials for the terrain, the prizes, the insurance for the hall, rent the tables, buy tropheys, swag bags etc. All told it runs between $3000-$5000 depending on where in the country you are and believe me you seldom make that money back to cover next years.

A while ago I spoke to Hank Edley one of the main organizers for Adepticon, and he told me it took them 6 years before they were able to actually cover the event itself, and that was a group of people. For me overall this sucks and I think it's more of a hit on the overall scale as tourneys are not just about winning or losing but the socializing and if people start going broke trying to run them then they will slowly fade away. Saddly this is what happened to me as since i don't work for the gov't anymore I couldn't affoard another year of losses organizing the Boston Brawl and no one would step up to help so that kicked off that idea. I apologize for going on the rant all but I get agrivated when people have no idea how much GW was actually doing to help the circuit!

Listen, my children, as I pass onto you the truth behind Willy Wonka and his factory. For every wonka bar ever created in existance, Mr. Wonka sacraficed a single Oompa Loompa to the god of chocolate, Hearshys. Then, he drank the blood of the fallen orange men because he fed them a constant supply of sugary chocolate so they all became diabetic and had creamy, sweet-tasting blood that willy could put into each and every Wonka bar. That is the REAL story behind willy wonka's Slaughter House!  
   
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Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

I have nothing negative to say about Ed, but he didn't do squat for the BAO. I mean nothing, and I was bugging him for over a year. I am sure this wasn't a personal decision, but still, GW just has such bizarre policies.

I play Heavy Gear a lot these days and I have had several conversations with one of the owners of the company and to him, I am nothing more than a guy who likes his game. Now, I know there is a vast difference of scale here, but Heavy Gear is a 20 year old game system and they still have that level of customer interaction.

Oh well. The Indy circuit is better than any event GW ever put on anyway.

   
Made in ca
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




The Great White North

I don't see why people believe GW should be hosting events....

Most companies don't support their products after you make the initial sale.

GW makes money by making people buy their models.... If you have an 1850 pt army already then you aren't their target market.... Why do they want to shower the players with gifts if you aint spending any money on their gear?

From a tightwad economic plan that GW has, tournaments needed to be axed....

Also 5th Edition is not endearing itself to the tournament scene do to GW's lack of support for the main product. IE: Tau, Eldar, and until recently DE and Crons.... all have been left unsupported for to long... which lends itself to a boring tournament evironment where only GK, DE and IG are competing at the highest levels...


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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

On the upside, there's even less reason now for indie tournaments to require 100%, or even any %, of our minis to by GW, now. Zero tourney support from GW + lots of small manufacturers doing alternate minis COULD = a more vibrant, enjoyable, friendly, welcoming wargames scene, as well as a more competitive one.

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Independence MO

Ian Sturrock wrote:On the upside, there's even less reason now for indie tournaments to require 100%, or even any %, of our minis to by GW, now. Zero tourney support from GW + lots of small manufacturers doing alternate minis COULD = a more vibrant, enjoyable, friendly, welcoming wargames scene, as well as a more competitive one.


This is a fine point. My gaming group out of Kansas City is working on putting together a two day GT style tournament. I see no reason what so ever to require model's be GW any more.
   
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Dallas Texas

I hate GW so much.....

They are going to kill their own hobby.

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Union, Kentucky United States

Smitty0305 wrote:I hate GW so much.....

They are going to kill their own hobby.


In fairness I think you mean their own product as this hobby as a whole was around long before them and will be long after them.

Listen, my children, as I pass onto you the truth behind Willy Wonka and his factory. For every wonka bar ever created in existance, Mr. Wonka sacraficed a single Oompa Loompa to the god of chocolate, Hearshys. Then, he drank the blood of the fallen orange men because he fed them a constant supply of sugary chocolate so they all became diabetic and had creamy, sweet-tasting blood that willy could put into each and every Wonka bar. That is the REAL story behind willy wonka's Slaughter House!  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It is completely idiotic for GW to not formally support a major tournament circuit. Here's a few quick, no brainer reasons why tournaments are a benefit for them:

1. People spend a lot of money buying new armies / buying new units for the next tournament (see NOVA post).

2. People spend a lot of money buying unnecessary terrain, paints, flock to create display boards and other scenics.

3. You get people to play more often, by creating meaning for regular games (e.g. "tournament practice"). By getting people to play more often, you increase the value of their purchases and make it easier for them to rationalize purchasing more. (Why do you need more than 1 army if you play once a year?)

4. Tournaments give you something to aspire to and a way to rank yourself relative to your peers. They also give you legendary players to look up to and try to emulate. All these factors increase your stickiness / interest in the game.

5. You create a strong incentive for people to use GW models (as mentioned above). Why do you think you don't see alternative models on Warmachine/hordes boards? Because you can't use them in tournaments, so it's generally a waste to purchase an alternative.

6. Very low cost for GW to support. Their markup on product is ridiculous (something like an 80% gross margin if I recall correctly). $500 worth of prize support is pretty solid and costs them a mere $100. The marketing these events do alone is worth far more than $100.


GW just doesn't get it. Lets do the math for them right now. You support 5 major events a year with $1,000 in GW merchandise ($5,000 total). That costs GW ~$1,000. To make that back, they need to sell approximately $1,250 in minis (assuming 80% gross margin). $1,250 breaks down to about 4 armies.

Does anyone honestly think that 5 major events with a $500 top prize each won't get FOUR PEOPLE to buy new armies in preparation for the tournament?

Only a fool wouldn't support a major tournament circuit.

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United States

^^^^ Pretty much summed it all up.

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Deep in the Woods

I find this disapointing. Mabye they will be back with a better plan at some point but I think its poor planing on their part to just discontinue support with a couple of empty pladatudes about yeah we got something in the works. As I understand it the two main guys that pushed Tourny's and tourny support have both left GW:US recently. I would guess this is the major reason for the drop. If it was my company though I would have pushed someone else into that position imediatly and got to work on a new plan. I wouldnt just let it fester in the minds of my customers that once agin it looks like im only looking at the bottom line and not my customers.

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A couple inputs from my p.o.v. ... I'm going to use the NOVA as my baseline, b/c I run it ... hope that's ok.

GW built this circuit, including events like the NOVA, because their initial offering was extremely beneficial for tournament organizers.

I'm going to use "close" numbers and not actuals, but the problems arose initially from the ambitious support quantities and unethical behavior by tournament organizers in the first year of the circuit.

GW basically required no past performance to get on the circuit, first of all. As I built and run the NOVA, I'll use it as the example of an event that should NOT have been in on its first year, yet benefitted by acting ethically.

You submitted your "application" and in large part it seemed it was accepted as written. You stated your EXPECTED # of attendees, and before they sent you final prize support, you would confirm your actual #.

As part of prize support, you'd get $500 in unboxed terrain (or you could add this to your prize pool), and a set amount of dollar value prize support that YOU as the organizer selected from the GW store (no tax/shipping).

You'd also get advertising on website/newsletters, and things like lanyards and bags for swag if you wanted them (just shop retail bags).

So in Year 1 the NOVA initially anticipated only 64 40k players, so our initial offering from GW for that quantity (under 100) was ~$700 of prizes + the $500 in terrain or prizes. We ended up with 118 (88 40k, 30 fantasy) in year 1, so we reported that when we hit over 100 (101-200 was the second tier), and wound up with ~$1400 in prizes + the $500 in terrain/prizes.

This was huge - the 2010 NOVA gave out around $8k in prizes, so 25% of our sponsorship was from GW. I received this support from GW purely on my word, with not even a phone call (every other sponsor even in the first year engaged in lengthy phone calls w/ me and all that). How many events claimed far more attendees and thus prize support than they actually had?


The problem here was a large # of unethical types on the circuit (arguably) took advantage by SAYING they were going to have 128 or 200+ or however many attendees, yet only wound up in the 50's, and so received $2k or more in GW support for very small attendee bases (and who knows what happened with the prizes).

As a result, after 2010 and starting in 2011's year, while GW would support very large events in ways OUTSIDE the circuit, even the big ones like AdeptiCon (to my understanding, I'm not quoting anyone in AdeptiCon's group) only received the "flat" quantity as part of the circuit, that being:

$300 in total voucher value for 1st/2nd/3rd places, in the form of 'after-event" online vouchers
$500 in unboxed terrain (that could no longer be converted to prize value instead)
Lanyards

In 2011, the NOVA had over 500 total hobbyists present counting volunteers, and 450 attendees despite a hurricane and earthquake ... quite the 1 year growth from 128. We went from spending $8k total to run the 2010 event and generating $6400 in ticket revenue (costing us, yes, $1600 to run the first year event), to generating over $35k in revenue (and spending about $36k, so a net improvement to the bottom line, haha ... it's expensive to build something up so fast, folks!). The GW sponsorship was ... $300 in vouchers, $500 in unboxed terrain, and lanyards. Our overall sponsor donations and prize support given away for 2011 was over $40,000.

So they went from contributing basically $2k of $6k in prizes for one of the biggest 40k events in the nation ... to contributing $800 in prize support of $40,000+.

Despite this, I frankly loved the support they gave us. GW is a major public corporation and the tourney-attending group pays an exorbitant but internationally marginal quantity of the GW annual revenue. Around 450 people spent over $100k on hobby products getting ready for the 2011 NOVA, and some quantity of that magnitudes larger than $800 went to GW. In return, we got to proudly run GW games, we got all kinds of support from them on the website / newsletter / etc., I got to build a great relationship with Ed Spettigue that really blossomed in communication through a couple of spurious comments by misinformed other people in the industry, and the NOVA grew into what it is. This wouldn't have happened without GW - they started the circuit, they sparked the first NOVA, they got me into this crazy hard game of convention organization.

So ... YES GW support is really important, but the support they JUST ended was not all that important to the FINANCIALS of running the events. Financially speaking, I just lost one of my SMALLEST sponsors (out of over 50 sponsors). Black Library will still be attending separate from the Independent Circuit, and we'll still have awesome prizes from them (they gave us some AWESOME prizes last year), and the presence of heavily involved, involved-in-the-events bestselling authors, etc. That's still Games Workshop support, it's just not "Independent Circuit Tournament" Support.

So the enterprising TO's out there can still try to build their event to a place where it's economically feasible for GW marketing folks to send support, it just isn't going to be part of a circuit.

It hurts the ability of NEW events to build themselves, to not have a ready-made prize pool pre-built from GW support, or maybe not to get lanyards. It doesn't REALLY hurt any existing events, unless they were already really rough on the financials ... like barely there rough.


The long and short is all of us who are part of the "de facto" circuit need to more and more support each other. There are a lot of activities going on in this regard, both regionally and country-wide. I do what I can with blog posts (i.e. in support of SVDM, MechaniCon, BFS, Colonial, Conflict, and many other local/regional events) and Invitational quals (nationally) to encourage people to attend other GT's, and I'm always happy to do more as memory and time permits. We need to replicate the "press" benefit GW gave all of us as part of hosting the circuit. As long as your event is running well and you're marketing well, you'll be able to handle the financial hit, because after year 1 it wasn't much of a hit at all.


Perhaps in finality to a rambling post, I think a THANK YOU is still in order for GW, and for Ed Spettigue, in their combined role of building many of the events on the circuit through press and enabling their existence, and while MANY of us may feel this change actually hurts GW financially ... it doesn't change the fact that the help they gave us to date certainly benefitted the hobby experience of everyone involved.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/28 23:11:09


 
   
Made in ca
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




The Great White North

I dont see your reasons to support a tournament as being viable...

I have played wh40k since RT days and have NEVER been to a tournament or even had any inkling to see how I "Stack Up" against my peers in this hobby.

I personally believe Tournaments are a detriment to this hobby.... and that is why I choose to stay away from the power gaming tournament player...

This afterall is a hobby.... I derive my fun from it by being with my friends and having a good time...

In fairness with no GW tournament support I think this benefits the 40k world because people who actually care for the game will start hosting smaller and better run events... Maybe no prizes etc but who really cares.....

Maybe finally we can see some better missions being created and used etc........

I would say there are more recreational users for 40k then comp players..... that is the market for GW... People who want to perhaps change things up and have a 2nd army etc.... they buy ALL the models in the range not just the good ones....

Being a Rec level player brings in MORE cash than a Comp Player.

GW is a model based company. They want to sell models....

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Los Angeles

Leenus wrote:Only a fool wouldn't support a major tournament circuit.

QFT, though it is Workshop we're talking about!

What irks me most as a retailer is that GW is doing a lot of talking about what they *aren't* doing (no more 'Ard Boyz, no more ToS, etc.), and not a lot of talking about what they *are* doing for support beyond product releases. It seems clear that they are shifting the focus of their systems away from any serious competitive format. Cancelling all the official tournament formats, new hugely expanded paint range, each new model range has a huge super cool model kit for which game balance and effect is a marginal concern...

Which is all fine. I just want them to come out and say it, already! If GW put out a retailer packet that detailed their concepts and suggestions for supporting and promoting their product as a storyline-driven, hobby-oriented range, then I can run with that, and make sure every prospective minis gamer that comes in the store and wants to get involved in a system with a serious competitive format gets his warmachine starter box!

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Milisim, my post above has a great deal of relevant info, and far more useful insight I think, but in short for your question -

Events generate THOUSANDS of dollars in product activity among players preparing for them ... models, paint, glue, brushes, snippers, tools, flocking supplies, etc. The more formally GW supports an event, the more formally the event requires GW product usage and the like. More importantly, the "spectre" of people using all NON-GW knock-offs as counts as is unreal (the NOVA for instance doesn't require GW models or even % models as long as things are WYSIWYG / proper proportion, but almost everyone of our 256 GT players uses GW models primarily).

Long story short, tournaments generate money for GW. By investing less than $1k in every event, GW effectively generated economic activity far in excess of that for their benefit. We surveyed our attendees after the event, and got an overwhelming response of over 50% of them (very high in survey terms). Our attendees spent over $100k total on ... JUST hobby stuff (models, glues, etc.).

So, GW sells models by having tournaments run on their behalf, and these tournaments cost GW WAY less than if they run them on their own. No two ways around it ... for marginal investment, GW was gaining considerable profit.
   
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Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




The Great White North

Im no GW FanBoy by a long margin, and I actually detest most of their decisions with their version of the hobby, but this one dosent strike me as being of major concern.

You would garner more outrage and a price hike of 5% than no tournaments....

GW I believe is trying to go back to the grass roots of having fun with its product. There are a lot of people with 40k armies who no longer play, because they are no longer enjoying themeselves....

Perhaps this is GW's way of eradicationg the power gamer and power lists from ruining its product.

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What are power lists? If you check the winning lists at basically any major GT in the last year, you'll find almost none of them match up with "Common" internet power lists. Everything from double stormraven to close assault guard armies abound, sprinkled with orks and daemons and everything else.

I'm trying only to assess this from a point of view of provable numbers, rather than the largely irrelevant business of opinion-making. A TINY percentage of GW's fanbase, most of it over the age of 25 (and nearly half of it over the age of 30) actually participates heavily in the tournament circuit. All the kids they cater to as a major fanbase component aren't at all affected by the circuit's existence one way or another.

What the circuit did was generate NEARLY free revenue for GW, selling models and supplies galore. Going from spending almost nothing, to spending nothing, and as a result possibly infringing on hundreds of thousands in future revenue ... is pointless. Every event that now WON'T get started because there's no circuit participation to kick-start it ... is an event not generating revenue for GW in the future at literally a GW-based cost of $800 and lanyard-shipping.

More importantly, all of this is completely irrelevant to the opinion-wars about what constitutes "Fun." Whether you actually believe events like NOVA, AdeptiCon, Bay Area, WarGamesCon and so many others are actually somehow "not" fun ... is pointless; it affects such a tiny % of the wargaming population as to not be part of the discussion about whether supporting the circuit with marginal resources was financially intelligent or not on the part of GW. I argue that it provably, measurably was ... and poor market research on the part of GW is what's behind the decision not to continue it ... nothing more. Certainly nothing along the lines of "Fun" and trying to improve or decrease it.

I guarantee you a few ill-informed marketing / business support personnel got together and looked at how much money they spent supporting the circuit over a few years, made some kind of comment or conclusion that "People just brought armies they already owned, and didn't buy things while they were there from us," and cut the umbilical.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 23:35:34


 
   
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Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

Milisim wrote:Im no GW FanBoy by a long margin, and I actually detest most of their decisions with their version of the hobby, but this one dosent strike me as being of major concern.

You would garner more outrage and a price hike of 5% than no tournaments....

GW I believe is trying to go back to the grass roots of having fun with its product. There are a lot of people with 40k armies who no longer play, because they are no longer enjoying themeselves....

Perhaps this is GW's way of eradicationg the power gamer and power lists from ruining its product.


Hahahahahaha, what?! How in the blazes does that get rid of power gaming/lists? Hahaha, that is just the way some people play games in general. Tournaments allow an outlet for it, but the root of "power" lists is GW's terrible rules writing abilities.

No offense intended, but if you've never been to a tournament, your opinion is pretty limited. They are fun, that's why a lot of people go all over the country to attend them.

Sorry, but your argument is totally illogical.

I love it when people infer some bizarre conclusion from totally unrelated facts.

Why wouldn't GW support a tournament circuit? Because they either have another plan or are stupid. End of discussion.

I know my opinion is pretty strong here and I don't mean to offend, Milism, but the attitude you express here is repeated a lot by gamers who really don't understand what the tournament scene is about because they've never been. It's a pretty weird and irrational point of view, in my opinion.

Tournaments drive sales. They pull people in. Look at Warmachine, Magic, etc. Those games make TONS of money from the active support of the Tournament scene. There is literally nothing to lose if it is done properly and a lot to lose if you DON'T don it. You leave the door open to the competition to get another foot in the door.

Supporting tournaments doesn't do anything to hurt the casual gamer (which you are right, are the majority of the gaming community) and it only generates revenue, increased interest in the hobby, and awareness of GW's product. Anyone who's been to Adpeticon can tell you how powerful of a motiviating, community building force that these things can be. And they are just plain FUN. To not support the tournament scene is just so, so, so stupid. But hey, it's GW we're talking about here, so that's par for the course.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/28 23:54:59


   
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Reecius wrote:

Tournaments drive sales. They pull people in. Look at Warmachine, Magic, etc. Those games make TONS of money from the active support of the Tournament scene. There is literally nothing to lose if it is done properly and a lot to lose if you DON'T don it. You leave the door open to the competition to get another foot in the door.

Supporting tournaments doesn't do anything to hurt the casual gamer (which you are right, are the majority of the gaming community) and it only generates revenue, increased interest in the hobby, and awareness of GW's product. Anyone who's been to Adpeticon can tell you how powerful of a motiviating, community building force that these things can be. And they are just plain FUN. To not support the tournament scene is just so, so, so stupid. But hey, it's GW we're talking about here, so that's par for the course.


This is the total simple truth. Tourneys do not impact casual play at all and do not harm or stunt casual play, but it sure as hell drives sales. Hell, the only reason why myself and people like me are buying new armies every year is because of tourneys. People either want to switch to the next big thing or want to try something new this year. I actually need 4 new battlewagons now because of what I want to play in the 2012 tourney season even though I own tens of thousands of orks. It drives sales not just for new players who get brought in but also vets who don't have to spend a dime if they didn't want to.

Personally, I would like to see GW do the old RTT system. Give free prize support to owners and organizers who already run good events. GW isn't able to run quality RTTs or GTs like they used to. I would eather no GW events rather than bad ones poisioning things. If they took all the prize support and provided it to Indy events to make them better, I think that is the best solution until GW can get their stuff together.

Edit: Oh, please don't pretend all tourney goers are WAAC powergamers, it simply isn't true. Most tourneys promote the hobby as a WHOLE and I go as I see some of the most amazing models and paintjobs and meet amazing people. I probably am gonna lose my ass on the battlefield but there is so much more to the tourney than just the game. Most tourneys really are amazing hobby-centric events and most people are going for all aspects even if they are playing to win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/29 00:11:17


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