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No surprise there.
GW ceased prize support here two years ago, and were tapering it off everywhere else as well.

WE couldn't even BUY their trophies off them ( that they had offered in WD for what was the current month to them ceasing the support).

It took you until now - feel lucky. Bad news travels by slow coach to the US these days, it seems.

That really is ashame

The long and short is, all this discussion about the finances of supporting tournaments is a little silly.

NO, the NOVA Open and many other events are not going to stop b/c GW stopped its marginal support.

The problem is, there are a lot of grand events that hundreds attend that GREW from the initial spark GW offered.

It's easy as the NOVA Open, or AdeptiCon, or whatever, to contact 100 sponsors and get support from 90 of them. The exposure is so significant and the playerbase that attends and watches and pays attention so large, it's a bit of a no brainer. Coupled with the fact that most of us TO's are crazy and don't do this for money, but to support our hobby and hobbyists (including the hobby-related sponsors), it's not hard for the big events to gain support.

The PROBLEM is the small events have exactly NO value statement to make in their first year or two to sponsors. GW offered intrepid TO's around the nation the opportunity to get started with a tailor-made package of prizes and terrain, which are the two biggest hurdles for a 'first' year event.

Should GW support ceaseless event generation? NO idea, not my place to get too deep into that business case, but by cutting off this support GW IS preventing many new events from continuing to develop; by sparking the development of events to date with the circuit, GW has almost undeniably generated revenue for itself; stopping, therefore, has at least some question to it in a financial sense ...

NOT AT ALL because of the argument line being pursued around the impact on existing events, but instead around the natural "death" of future not-yet-conceived events that occurs because of the cut-off.

*shrug*

Yeah, while all the philosophical and business talk is interesting, I really think the main driver behind this decision is organizational. The guy who used to run the thing is gone now. I've worked in organizations before where "the guy who did X" left, and it can take six months before his replacement has figured things out, cleaned up whatever issues were left behind, and has a good grasp of how to proceed in the future. In the meantime, things went into a deep freeze. I can't be the only one who's seen this in action.

As Tironum said, this isn't the first time that GW's axed a circuit. And each time it's returned. I don't think GW views a tournament circuit as a crucial component to its business, for some of the reasons that Redbeard states. However, I think the many resurrections of the circuit shows that GW (or GWUS, at least) sees *some* value there.

Let's give it some time and see what happens. History suggests that in another year or so, we'll have something new. In the meantime, I expect most of the indy GTs will continue chugging along, although startups may be affected. Probably the only difference that players will notice is a lack of GW vouchers.

@Gorgon: I actually agree with your first paragraph. This move away from providing prize support, ending the tournament circuit, and ending 'Ard Boys all coincide with the exodus of the two people in GW US who ran all of this stuff.

GW has been hot and cold towards the idea of tournament support over the years. We'll just have to wait and see what the future brings to know if this policy is a new corporate direction or merely the results of not having the right people in place.

Ok guys I have the solution!!!

After tonight, when I win the Mega Million jackpot, I'll sponsor the Indy Curcuit! Heck I could set up a traveling GT!

What else are you going to do with 1/2 a billion dollars?

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Ok guys I have the solution!!!

After tonight, when I win the Mega Million jackpot, I'll sponsor the Indy Curcuit! Heck I could set up a traveling GT!

What else are you going to do with 1/2 a billion dollars?

I make the same pledge should I win.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Ok guys I have the solution!!!

After tonight, when I win the Mega Million jackpot, I'll sponsor the Indy Curcuit! Heck I could set up a traveling GT!

What else are you going to do with 1/2 a billion dollars?

You could buy GW and run it any way you would like.

Not a bad idea, think I'll go buy a lotto ticket.

same
lol

doc dragon wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Ok guys I have the solution!!!

After tonight, when I win the Mega Million jackpot, I'll sponsor the Indy Curcuit! Heck I could set up a traveling GT!

What else are you going to do with 1/2 a billion dollars?

You could buy GW and run it any way you would like.

Not a bad idea, think I'll go buy a lotto ticket.

That's an even better idea... But I would have to move the company to the U.S. because there is no way I want to live in England. Or I could just Skype all my board meetings

Redbeard wrote:
Maybe tournament support falls into the same category. Not because tournaments are useless, or have no value, but because they believe that the tournament scene is mature enough to survive without their direct involvement. So here's a business 101 question for you. If you can spend nothing, and get a return of $1000 for each of 140 people who plan to play at NOVA, why would you spend $1000 - plus the human resources required to manage the program, to get the same return?

You're looking at the wrong analysis.

If I could get $1,000 for each 140 NOVA players for free, would I spend $1,000+ HR to do the same thing? Absolutely not. However, that is not the actual scenario. The real scenario is that you can get $1,000 for each 140 NOVA players for free as a baseline. The question is then how much MORE money per 140 players do I get for the incremental $1,000+ HR. If it's $0, then of course it doesn't make sense. My argument is that you get enough return (both in direct $ spent and intangible benefit) to offset the investment.

However, it's less the case with NOVA/Adepticon. They have reached the critical mass where they have enough presence that they get plenty of sponsorship regardless of GW. In the early years, those tournaments needed GW's support to survive (MVBrandt said so in his own posts and Adepticon was in the red for 6 years as per their post). More importantly, lots of smaller GT events, Socal Slaughter for example, need the sponsorship to have a chance of breaking even. The prize support is not that important for major established events, but it is critical for the smaller events that are starting up.

If the prize support goes away, these small events will vanish and people won't spend money in preparation. Again, the simple analysis on the value of prize support is [estimated incremental sales + intangibles - $ spent on prize support]. A quick back-of-the-envelope analysis shows they don't need to encourage that many people with incremental purchases to breakeven (see earlier post for analysis).

Moreover, the prize support says a lot about GW's view of the game. No prize support says to me that they don't care about the massive events people independently put together to support their game. It's basically an "F You" we have your money, now get lost. As a comparison, Privateer Press significantly supports their events and shows they care about the time people put into organizing an independent event in their free time. That makes me want to support PP far more than GW.


To your question about if I'll skip any events. Absolutely. I am attending more PP events and fewer GW events. Why? Because PP supports competitive play and GW doesn't. The reason I didn't switch sooner is PP hadn't hit a critical mass of players and I was hanging on to GW, because I had played the game for so many years.

You spend a lot of time positing tangential nonsense (like talking about TV advertising. Who was even talking about that??) and not focusing on the issues. You admit you believe that the elimination of tournaments would result in less spending, then the question becomes does the elimination of prize support result in fewer tournaments? That is the core question for debate. I think we both agree that it doesn't suddenly end the major events like Adpeticon and NOVA. However, I believe it will cause the end of some smaller events. The lack of support, even if it doesn't directly kill tournaments, has a secondary effect of really highlighting that GW doesn't give a crap about it's players or their events. That fact is further amplified by the fact a direct competitor DOES support tournaments. GW might have been able to get away with ending support when they were the only show in town. But now PP is a real threat to their business. How many tournaments have been adding significant PP events to their tournaments? A lot. If I was GW, that would scare the crap out of me.

I think you're in a hard position to win this debate though. There are several tournament organizers that freely admit GW prize support is/was vital to their success. There are plenty of people who say they spend more in preparation for a tournament. I bet a quick poll would give us some quick data (I'll start one). I don't think saying GW has run the analysis is a strong defense. Not all companies make the right decision despite "running the analysis" otherwise businesses wouldn't fail.

Leenus wrote:
You spend a lot of time positing tangential nonsense (like talking about TV advertising. Who was even talking about that??) and not focusing on the issues.

I think you're in a hard position to win this debate though.

This appears to be a fundamental difference in our approach here. I am not trying to win a debate. There are no judges, there are no scores. Not everything needs to be based in conflict. I post about tangential issues because I believe this is a discussion forum, not a debate forum, and discussions naturally have a tendency to wander.

You admit you believe that the elimination of tournaments would result in less spending, then the question becomes does the elimination of prize support result in fewer tournaments? That is the core question for debate.

For discussion, sure. And I'm not sure that it does. I'll use the example that I've got first-hand knowledge of, the Chicago-area tournament scene.

We've got one of the GW battle bunkers in the area. But tournaments were rarely run at the bunker. When I got into competitive play, around 2006, most tournaments were held at independent locations. Sometimes bars, (where the beer round would allow a player to place an empty bottle on the table as terrain), sometimes independent game stores. But rarely the GW bunker. I think this was when the Outrider program was getting some people to run events - DarthDiggler was more involved than I back then and may be able to correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, for some reason those people stopped running tournaments and the scene dried up for a couple of years.

Around 2008, Chris Hill (zero_cool) decided to take over the organization of a tournament series himself. Although he has been a GW employee, and I think is again now, this wasn't done in an official capacity with the company. It was done because there was a mass of players who wanted to have a tournament series. Some more competitive, some more social, but a group of players took the reins and set up the events. GW supports us in this endevour by providing table-space, but not prize support. Maybe a couple of times the Bunker manager has added a few dollars to one of the gift cards that we buy with our entry fees, but there's no organized prize-support. What's more, there's a vocal part of this group that has ensured that these tournaments not be about prize support, but about competition. We spend entry fees on plaques for winners. Sure, it's a few less dollars on your ift-card, but we tend to believe that we're not in this for the money, we're in it for the competition and social experience. We've maintained this tournament series for three years now, holding our 3rd Championship finals tomorrow.

Based on this, I have no doubts that a tournament scene can flourish without corporate handouts. What's needed is strong organizers, not corporate cash. If there's a demand for a competitive scene, then the competitive scene can happen, regardless of what level of interest a game publisher has in it. (P.S. if anyone is interested in more details on our series, or how to start one in your area, feel free to PM me).

Strong organizers, like muwhe and MVBrandt are more important than getting prize support. People who will promote the hell out of their events.

I think we both agree that it doesn't suddenly end the major events like Adpeticon and NOVA. However, I believe it will cause the end of some smaller events.

It might. On the other hand, diminishing returns may also, and GW removing that sponsorship may not be a bad thing when you take a larger view. How many "events" can you legitimately run before they start stepping on each other's toes? At what point does adding a new event not add new players or new participation, but merely draw them away from another event? These are realistic questions.

The lack of support, even if it doesn't directly kill tournaments, has a secondary effect of really highlighting that GW doesn't give a crap about it's players or their events. That fact is further amplified by the fact a direct competitor DOES support tournaments. GW might have been able to get away with ending support when they were the only show in town. But now PP is a real threat to their business. How many tournaments have been adding significant PP events to their tournaments? A lot. If I was GW, that would scare the crap out of me.

I see where you are coming from, and yet, I'm not your ideas mesh with GWs. I talked to Jervis at a GT a few years ago. I asked him if they evaluated how other game companies, using M;TG as an example, wrote their rules. I mentioned the way that M:TG's rules are written with clarity in mind, that there are established keywords that always mean the same thing. And he said that they were aware of this, but that they had no interest in doing this. He outright said that the competitive scene was not their priority, and that they prefer to write for casual gamers.

And this was at a GW-run GT.

It wasn't what I wanted to hear. I like tight rules, I'm an engineer by trade, getting things defined well is what I do. But it did open my eyes to the company's perspective. They're happy that there are tournament players, but tournament players put an extra demand on them that takes their attention away from their core focus - making and selling miniatures. Tournament players are a significant minority of their customers, although we don't notice that as much in the US because we're more competitive in general. But remember, they come from a English mindset. Why would they need to write clear rules that people can't take advantage of because, in their mind, taking advantage of loopholes isn't sporting. If something is too good, it's not sporting to take three of them...

I don't see this as being a case where they hate their players, or show contempt for us. I think that they're being honest, both to themselves and to us - the competitive scene is not their area of primary focus. If PP steps in to fight them for that sector, well, that may force them to re-evaluate that focus, but at the moment, their focus is on recruiting kids to buy models. And cancelling the support and the 'ard boyz events seems to me more a case that they're re-focusing on their core.

That's okay. I don't think that the competitive scene needs their hand-holding. I think there are enough bloggers and podcasters that keep the flame lit 24/7. I think there are enough 'grand' events that are big enough to stand on their own that we don't really need more big events. I think there are enough 3rd party sponsors who are happy for the competitive dollar - like Neal at the Warstore and Romeo at Battlefoam - who will be happy to fill that void, and take that money. And I think that local groups of competitive-minded players can do more to organize a tournament circuit in their area than GW can.

There are plenty of people who say they spend more in preparation for a tournament. I bet a quick poll would give us some quick data (I'll start one). I don't think saying GW has run the analysis is a strong defense. Not all companies make the right decision despite "running the analysis" otherwise businesses wouldn't fail.

While amusing, your poll has no real relevance. People who don't play in tournaments aren't going to spend less because tournament exist, and people who do play in them are either going to spend more or the same. This isn't data that shows anything interesting. Interesting would be if you could, somehow, compare the amount of extra money spent by these tournament players against GWs revenues. That would tell us if their decision to focus their energies outside of the competitive sector is wise. But we don't have that data. We cannot make that analysis.

Maybe they do have it wrong. But they've done a decent job of not failing as a business so far, so perhaps they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I totally get GW's perspective and focus on casual play. I just think it's completely wrong and there's a reason PP is growing like wildfire. There's a reason League of Legends supports a $5M prize pool tournament series. There are too many obvious indicators that supporting tournament play is a profitable endeavor. Many reasons in this thread have shown why supporting tourny play makes sense.

You are certainly right that if the incremental revenue from tournament players' incremental spend is a small, small percentage of GW's revenue, then it may not matter if they don't focus on competitive play. Neither of us can prove this point, since we don't have the numbers. But for $5,000 of prize support (~$1,000) to for five major tournaments, they could make a huge defensive move against PP in terms of public perception. You don't really need incremental headcount to admin gift vouches for 5 tournaments a year and you only need to sell 4 armies worth of goods across all those people to recoup your investment. What I think you're missing is the extremely low cost in terms of $ and energy to support a few major events, especially when you consider the potential upside.

The lack of tournament support is just 1 piece of a larger problem. GW makes money so I agree they aren't "failing." Yet, I think you'd have to be out of your mind to buy their stock given management's decision making coupled with the PP threat. Privateer Press has stepped in with a tight ruleset, strong competitive support, no yearly price increases (I believe) and an excellent relationship with the customer. Four major things that GW does not do/offer.

Competitive play can exist without corporate support. But what happens when 2 similar game systems compete and 1 has corporate support and 1 doesn't? Which one flourishes and which one simply exists?

I think GW has made it pretty clear by now they neither want nor welcome hobbyist participation in anything that doesn't bring immediate sales to their bottom line. Maybe they think they're on the path to becoming the next Hasbro and don't need their hardcore crowd anymore. Either way it'll be pretty hilarious when their house of cards eventually comes crashing down.

Edit: You're also deluding yourself if you think the loss of tournament support isn't a net negative, not matter how you spin it for the company.

As one of the guys trying to graduate things to the GT level. (Steel city showdown in Pittsburgh this and last year) I'm kind of disappointed. I've asked to join the Facebook group so i can somewhat stay in the loop with the folks in the know.

We've been pulling in 40 and 50+ regularly for our quarterly events. and submitted for the 2012/2013 season but never got a response back from Ed S.

Does anyone have speculation on whats going to be the replacement for this? I cannot see them re-doing the outrider program, nor a company held GT.

Too early to tell, I think, WG.

That's awesome to hear that your local events are doing so well. One of the stores (fairly) near me, Battlegrounds in Southern Massachusetts, is in a similar spot- running quarterly one-day events which regularly fill up at 40 people, and working on plans to take it to the next level.

Leenus wrote:I totally get GW's perspective and focus on casual play. I just think it's completely wrong and there's a reason PP is growing like wildfire. There's a reason League of Legends supports a $5M prize pool tournament series. There are too many obvious indicators that supporting tournament play is a profitable endeavor. Many reasons in this thread have shown why supporting tourny play makes sense.

Leenus- as someone who last year directed almost all of my hobby funds into Privateer Press, and who plays in tournaments for GW games, I can honestly say that PP support for tournaments did nothing to get me interested in the game.

What got me interested was the leagues- the local press ganger is very frequently organizing leagues, with something like a $5 fee, to get people out and playing, with prizes for various things at the end. In fact, this is what got me into playing warhammer fantasy after tiring of 40k for a while- a league organized by some guys at the local GW shop.

I think it doesn't have to be "either / or". For some reason, Redbeard got jumped all over for bringing up the opposing viewpoint, despite being a tournament player. As someone who travels in both circles, I find both hardcore tournament players and hardcore casual players can be equally stubborn . There's room for both under the tent, and companies should support both and everything in between.

But as a tournament player, the tournaments organized for Privateer Press were far from the primary consideration for me starting their games. Hearing that there was good balance/support was a major factor, however. And having a league to join in gave me the opportunity that just watching a tournament would never do- that of easing me into the game system and helping me learn and start out, rather than having opponents have to "play to win" rather than to teach.

So, I think it's a factor, but not so much in the way that you're stating. The general reputation of PP's games as having a tight rules system was attractive, but I've also seen it turn people off. Companies need to cater to all types of gamers to do well, and I agree that PP is doing a bit of a better job of that at the moment. But just as important as their tournaments are their more informal leagues and other ways of supporting "friendly/casual play"- in my case, much more so, and I would think the same is true for many others trying to learn a new game system... and this is despite the fact that I am extremely interested in playing in tournaments for any game system that I play.

It seems like GW is only focused on making changes that directly, obviously, and immediately affect the bottom line in their favor even if it is a bad idea in the long run. You'd think that they'd consider prize support as advertising (having their name and logo all over swag bags, posters, mentioned at tournies, etc) but all they apparently see is an expenditure with no immediate return on the investment.. not surprising considering that almost all their "ads" are in their own publications and are effectively free. I see this change as being in the same vein as stripping down their stores to one man outfits. They'll gain a better number on one line of their balance sheet at the expense of community goodwill (less chatting with customers, less hobby support with painting/advice) and growing the pool of gamers.

Eh, if I had one the mega millions lottery yesterday, I could have bought out GW and made the changes but alas I didn't. :(

I don't think that tournaments, even ones like the NOVA, necessarily contribute as much money as people think either. Just wanted to point this out, but even if everyone spends $1000 for their nova army, that doesn't mean that every tournament makes GW $1000. A lot of the people who go to the nova go to the other GTs with the same army.

Not an excuse, but perhaps part of the explanation.

Mike, I have to disagree completely...

The PROBLEM is the small events have exactly NO value statement to make in their first year or two to sponsors. GW offered intrepid TO's around the nation the opportunity to get started with a tailor-made package of prizes and terrain, which are the two biggest hurdles for a 'first' year event.

and

NOT AT ALL because of the argument line being pursued around the impact on existing events, but instead around the natural "death" of future not-yet-conceived events that occurs because of the cut-off.

I need to point out for possible future Tournament Organizers that beginning events CAN-AND-DO acquire fantastic sponsorship from many manufacturers. I have had wonderful success and so have many other TOs I know. Also, most events out there had nothing to do with the latest circuit and had established themselves on their own.

The Berks-PA Gaming Club is a prime example. They started with a moderate size club with a few old timers (sorry guys but it is true) and a bunch of younger players. They got help from others and ran their first event in 2010. Even though it was their first year, they were able to get sponsorship from many manufacturers as well their local retailers. Their second year they were able to grow, start building their own tables and scenery and receive MUCH more sponsorship. This will be their 3rd event (in 24 months) and they are booming. Why? They put in the effort to make it happen with a good approach and a great group of guys pitching in.

If you want to get into trying your own event -

Get help from other clubs who have experience or supplies. Sometimes you find the hoarder who just needs to empty a closet and can donate prizes. Team up together with other groups to come up with enough tables and scenery and start building your own immediately.

See what you can do to work with your local retailers. Most will be able to offer discounts for tournament supplies and may even be able to assist with prize support. Maybe they need some terrain assembled and painted or you can help run a demo sometime to return the favor.

Contact prospective sponsors well in advance and in a professional manner. There is tons of sponsorship out there - just look for it! Use the sponsorship the way it was intended or you will lose it in the future.



I also do not think the big tournaments have anywhere near the impact on sales that is being stated here. Players who spend more than a couple hundred dollars on an army are not dumping it into GW unless they are doing units of 25th anniversary marines and they certainly are not doing it for every event they attend. Resin bases, scenic supplies, paint and adhesives, custom foam carrying cases, painting services, lights, cameras and photo booths, airbrushes, tools and more are all the big preparation expenses.

Tironum wrote:
I also do not think the big tournaments have anywhere near the impact on sales that is being stated here. Players who spend more than a couple hundred dollars on an army are not dumping it into GW unless they are doing units of 25th anniversary marines and they certainly are not doing it for every event they attend. Resin bases, scenic supplies, paint and adhesives, custom foam carrying cases, painting services, lights, cameras and photo booths, airbrushes, tools and more are all the big preparation expenses.

I have to disagree here. A fairly low model-count Grey Knight army, 2000 points, will run you:

Codex: $33
10 paladins: $100
3x Dreadnought: $135
Draigo: $22.50
Libby: $22.50
5 Other terminators: $50
Vindicare: $15
Techmarine: $20

Total: $398 - double the "couple hundred" you suggest. And this is for one of the lowest model-count armies you can play, with few vehicles, that tend to rack up points in a hurry. A "parking lot" style army is going to start at $280 just for the eight rhino bodies, and you still need to add men in.

This doesn't account for Forge World models or conversion parts (three dreads above require either the purchase of parts for conversions, frequently from GW terrain sets, or Forgeworld arms, at $25/dread) much of which does actually go to GW, and if you use GW paint, well, that cost goes to GW too. I know that armies run into the $1k range, because the army I took to Adepticon last year did.

Pricing it out (rounding to $5):

Codex: $33
FW Biker Boss kit: $65
2x FW Nob biker kits: $85
2x box of nobs: $50
2x box of boyz: $30
2x box of kommandos: $75
Snikrot: $15
2x kommando w/ burna: $30
Box of stormboyz: $25
Trukk: $30
Battlewagon: $65
9 boxes of warbikers: $370
Waboss: $25
Deathkopta: $35
2x buggies: $50
Battlewagon upgrades: $15
Space Marine Attack Bike: $25
Space Marine Bike: $15
Scout Bike: $15
Chaos Marine Bike: $15
-------
Total so far: $1069

Parts for conversions add up. Forgeworld models and parts aren't cheap. My list above doesn't include resin bases, non-gw components used for display bases, paint, glue, or tools. It's not at all unrealistic that someone creating a tournament-caliber army will drop $1k on it.

Redbeard wrote:

Tironum wrote:
I also do not think the big tournaments have anywhere near the impact on sales that is being stated here. Players who spend more than a couple hundred dollars on an army are not dumping it into GW unless they are doing units of 25th anniversary marines and they certainly are not doing it for every event they attend. Resin bases, scenic supplies, paint and adhesives, custom foam carrying cases, painting services, lights, cameras and photo booths, airbrushes, tools and more are all the big preparation expenses.

I have to disagree here. A fairly low model-count Grey Knight army, 2000 points, will run you:

Codex: $33
10 paladins: $100
3x Dreadnought: $135
Draigo: $22.50
Libby: $22.50
5 Other terminators: $50
Vindicare: $15
Techmarine: $20

Total: $398 - double the "couple hundred" you suggest. And this is for one of the lowest model-count armies you can play, with few vehicles, that tend to rack up points in a hurry. A "parking lot" style army is going to start at $280 just for the eight rhino bodies, and you still need to add men in.

This doesn't account for Forge World models or conversion parts (three dreads above require either the purchase of parts for conversions, frequently from GW terrain sets, or Forgeworld arms, at $25/dread) much of which does actually go to GW, and if you use GW paint, well, that cost goes to GW too. I know that armies run into the $1k range, because the army I took to Adepticon last year did.

Pricing it out (rounding to $5):

Codex: $33
FW Biker Boss kit: $65
2x FW Nob biker kits: $85
2x box of nobs: $50
2x box of boyz: $30
2x box of kommandos: $75
Snikrot: $15
2x kommando w/ burna: $30
Box of stormboyz: $25
Trukk: $30
Battlewagon: $65
9 boxes of warbikers: $370
Waboss: $25
Deathkopta: $35
2x buggies: $50
Battlewagon upgrades: $15
Space Marine Attack Bike: $25
Space Marine Bike: $15
Scout Bike: $15
Chaos Marine Bike: $15
-------
Total so far: $1069

Parts for conversions add up. Forgeworld models and parts aren't cheap. My list above doesn't include resin bases, non-gw components used for display bases, paint, glue, or tools. It's not at all unrealistic that someone creating a tournament-caliber army will drop $1k on it.

Ditto, my guard army at 2k + Case clocks in at around $1200

My GK army, which I routinely buy new units for to switch up my lists for tournaments/GTs, is coming in closer to $1500 now if I had to take a guess (Mind you, it's massive). But just recently for a GT I decided "I'd like to put dreadknights in for kicks" and picked up a couple. Beyond my initial army purchase (which was primarily to take to events) I drop 50-100 easily on updating it from time to time and for new events.

Tony I think you're missing my primary point.

My point is not that future hopeful TO's who want to start events CAN'T get sponsorship elsewhere, support from local clubs, or a myriad of other processes by which to establish themselves. This is obviously true, by virtue of the wide # of events that pre-date the GW Independent Circuit.

That said, there are TONS of events that only exist BECAUSE the circuit was so well publicized to the world of GW lovers, and because of the support it offered. The NOVA Is but one example of an event that exists because of the circuit. I was barely aware of Dakka or even local clubs pre-NOVA; but I was already scrubbing together an annual outdoor charity event and seasonal blood bowl leagues ... that's what us organizer personality types do. But I had 0 intention or even THOUGHT of ever expanding beyond 32 at the outdoor event, and "locals" in the blood bowl leagues, until I got the GW newsletter in my inbox with information on this newfangled tournament circuit. That's the sole reason I expanded into the 500+ attendee annual convention I run today.

The point that events can start w/out GW support is irrelevant, and I completely agree with it.

The point also stands that there are now many events which may have been, that will not be. There is where I think GW is missing the mark on this drop. Every event that would exist regardless, or that already exists and will continue regardless, is irrelevant to the continuation or cessation of GW prize support.


PS - Also, what Andrew/Redbeard said. I'm not into arguing that one too closely though; I can only share what our survey shows people spent on hobby - over $100k among all NOVA attendees. We didn't break the survey down last year into more specific numbers, so I will not make any assertions of what I "think" people actually spent % of that total on.

Long and short, the Mechanicon in all its awesomeness is an example of an event that exists regardless of GW circuit support, and is a good example in that regard; you've provided some great points to support that as well. The NOVA is an example of an event (that I hope also is awesome) that would not have existed because of the nature of the situation without GW circuit support. There are MANY events that fall into the category of the NOVA, and their future analogs are what will NOT now exist.

Mike, I was thinking you are selling yourself short. I think the biggest thing that helped NOVA boom is having a great format. Your format has been copied by many other clubs for their own events and the popularity has little to do with the promotion from GW. We also had parts of our system adopted by other clubs and even 'Ard Boyz borrowed some of our scoring.

Many events were announced in the newsletters after they happened. White Dwarf listings were cancelled early on and the website was rarely updated. Quite a few events on the circuit pulled in less than 40 players and not because of being one of the tournaments with a bad reputation. Some TOs did not receive their support for 6 months after their events happened. What we did get was a generous donation from GW and the freedom to host our events as we saw fit and I cannot be more thankful for that.

Events became successful because of the hard work of those running and supporting them as well as having a great player base who enjoyed them. NOVA might have started after the circuit was created, but in no way would a massive event with one opportunity to move on to Throne of Skulls be booming because of the circuit. Is that really the sole reason you tried to build a large gathering of gamers - to have 256 players compete for one chance to play in the GW hosted event?


I also think that the little bit of GW scenery support didn't help that much to run a tournament. Sure, it was a great bonus but it was a drop in the bucket for the budget to build tables and scenery for an entire tournament. For example, our first year we received:

5 Imperial Strongpoints and a landing pad = 10 bastions, 3 sets of aegis lines and 1 landing pad = 20 pieces of terrain = about 3 tables worth. Hardly enough to run a competition in a basement of a club-mate's house let alone be the difference if an event can succeed or not.


As for the price of an army, sure you can go nuts as my cadians have cost me a ton with forgeworld heads/backpacks/upgrades and GW parts but my Draigo army cost less than 300 due in part to gifts, prizes and discounts. I know guys who spend years and thousands on a single army. It doesn't really have anything to do with the tournament support discussion though and it surely is not spent for every event that tournament players attend.


Getting all doom and gloom is not going to fix things, you just gotta roll up your sleeves and make it happen. Along that same point, help give the new organizers confidence that they can succeed. They are reading our posts and copying them to their forums and blogs. We are the ones making the standard for events, whether they be a small niche event like MechaniCon or the other extreme - a massive convention like Adepticon.


Once again, I will repeat that you have to remember that there is no one at GW who is running promotions and they will have to revamp the entire system. Let's all take a breath and wait til next year and see what happens.

RiTides wrote:Leenus- as someone who last year directed almost all of my hobby funds into Privateer Press, and who plays in tournaments for GW games, I can honestly say that PP support for tournaments did nothing to get me interested in the game.

What got me interested was the leagues- the local press ganger is very frequently organizing leagues, with something like a $5 fee, to get people out and playing, with prizes for various things at the end. In fact, this is what got me into playing warhammer fantasy after tiring of 40k for a while- a league organized by some guys at the local GW shop.

No where did I say that that tournaments were solely about getting people interested in the game. They certainly help get competitive players into the game, but the value of the tournament is less about the initial draw and more about the continuous carrot. I actually said, if you read my posts, that they were an important factor in KEEPING PEOPLE INTERESTED in the game. The corporate prize support does two things. It helps new tournaments thrive AND, more importantly, it sends a clear message that the company cares about the independent organizers/players, giving them further reason/incentive to pursue their events. Just like your league which gives your a reason to play, so do to tournaments. I don't think tournaments will vanish without GW's support. I do think less will flourish and people will be less inclined to start them up, but there will always be some level of independent tournaments. However, my issue with GW is the very small cost for the potential of large returns, or guarding against a large potential loss.

If there were massive costs to supporting a tournament circuit, I'd agree that the benefit might be minimal. But when GW uses it's own product to support tournaments, the cost is so cheap that I fail to see the business rationale for giving PP a free advantage over GW.

GW really needs to take a more active role in thwarting PP if it wants to hold on to market share. I think tourney sponsorship is an excellent way to do so, because the cost is very cheap for the effect.

My Manager told me our GW Rep didn't say much about the issue but there is a Rumor going that The Ard Boyz Tournaments are gonna no longer be around as well. No more Prize Support or anything like that.

I hope its not true though. Prize Support and big tournies generate a lot of excitement and stuff.

Leenus, it's a good point, and I guess I'm not aware of how GW's policies might differ from PP's in regards to tournament support. I had thought that GW was a lot more generous, until this new policy change of course. Was that not the case?

I.e., GW were providing more prize support to tournaments than PP was? I'm guessing someone like MVBrandt or mikhaila could verify this easily, but from the small tournaments I've seen for PP, I thought the prizes were basically equivalent to the pooled entry fees, without a lot of prize support from the company itself.

I could be totally wrong about this... I guess my point (in perhaps a little too energetic of a fashion) was to say that the organization / opportunity to play through the press ganger system has been a big draw for me. Prize support never really matters to me, although I know it helps tournaments able to exist / break even... but I never win them so they're not much of a factor for my decisions on whether or not to play in a tournament. But I know they matter for their existence... I just didn't think that PP was more generous in their "prize support" for tournaments than GW was.

I definitely know that they're more supportive in their "attitude" towards competitive play, but that isn't really what's being discussed here (I think) as far as what's ending with GW.

Would welcome thoughts on this!