Should I issue a refund?

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**Midnightdeathblade**

I recently had a sale on ebay of one of my warhound titans. I described the model (construction, durability, and size) and set the price at $100 and $15 shipping. A man from italy bought one. I wasnt sure if the titan would survive shipping overseas, and I told him this. So after a week or so of negotating, I shipped it, EXPRESS ($35) overseas. It arrives apparantly in pieces wich is no surprise to me (its not supposed to be thrown around like that) and he wants a full refund. He is also complaining that i didnt include the weapon barrels (this i also messeged him about) (they always break off durring shipping, and are easy to make) SOOO, should I isssue a refund?

**juraigamer**

No, you explained everything and anything damaged by shipping can be glued together again. The buyer obviously never shipped anything.

**Midnightdeathblade**

Yeah thats what I think. It did take me a while to commit to shipping, but thats only because I really didnt want to in order of avoiding this mess. And when I did ship, I shipped express, so I overpayed on shipping.

**Joey**

Caveat emptor.
Can't he glue it back together anyway?

**Midnightdeathblade**

I have no clue, he sent me an iliterate messege insulting my product and saying how it was completly destroyed. Doesnt make sense cause I packed it with 3 shipping balloons and over 300 peanuts...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
300*

**Marzillius**

He knew the risks and he took them. You do not owe a refund unless you agreed to give one beforehand.

**Rimmy**

as long as you have the emails to back up your claim, I don't see a problem. its kind of the biggest reason people avoid shipping things overseas, its just SO hard on the material.

**haendas**

I wouldn't voluntarily issue a refund based on the information you've shared. I wouldn't be surprised if a refund is forced by ebay though. They're very much on the side of the buyer a vast majority of the time even in situations like you describe.

**Midnightdeathblade**

Yeah, well im gonna fight like hell against it. Thats total crap. He agreed, he should own what happened.

**GreatGunz**

Midnightdeathblade wrote:I recently had a sale on ebay of one of my warhound titans. I described the model (construction, durability, and size) and set the price at $100 and $15 shipping. A man from italy bought one. I wasnt sure if the titan would survive shipping overseas, and I told him this. So after a week or so of negotating, I shipped it, EXPRESS ($35) overseas. It arrives apparantly in pieces wich is no surprise to me (its not supposed to be thrown around like that) and he wants a full refund. He is also complaining that i didnt include the weapon barrels (this i also messeged him about) (they always break off durring shipping, and are easy to make) SOOO, should I isssue a refund?

I don't know about a refund or not, but I think you made a mistake shipping that thing to him. If it doesn't surprise you that it broke, it shouldn't surprise you either that he complained. Even though he's wrong to complain about something you explained to him clearly, that just means he's an unreasonable ignoramus. Which shouldn't surprise you either. It's normal for people to act like that so it has to be taken into account at the outset.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm argueing the practical rather than the ethical side of this. Obviously you're ethically in the right if you explained everything clearly. I'm just saying this is something you could have (did) foresee, so you have some responsibility here too. You chose to act even known what the likely consequences would be.

**Midnightdeathblade**

I understand that. But im running a small buisness. I told him specifically that theres a good chance that the item would be beaten up on the trip. He responded by saying something to the effect of, its fine! I can just re-glue it. I didnt want to go through with it, maby I shouldnt have, but he still agreed to my terms and warnings. I think I should have no reason to re-fund him.

**Portugal Jones**

The warning flags went up as soon as you mentioned 'Italy.' Never ship to Italy, and no, he doesn't deserve a refund.

**loota boy**

If he says its fine, he'd just re-glue it, then he ought to be held to it. If he fully knew the consiquences, and you explained them to him, then that's just tough for him. Send him the assembly instructions and a tube of GW glue.

**Brother SRM**

Nope. You could probably have packed better, but you can't be held liable for things getting mashed up in transit. You explained what was going on to him, and he agreed to those terms when he purchased it.

**Xenocidal Maniac**

Issue a refund and he gets to keep the item? I don't think so.

You explained it upfront, and he, as a full-grown man, accepted the risks and knew what he was getting into.

**Ailaros**

I think I'm actually on the pro-refund side of this. In what other business transaction could you spend money and then not get the promised proper good or service in return? He may be a big whiner who got what he deserved, but you're also coming dangerously close to committing mail fraud.

It's why most small-time people who ship professionally will take out insurance on packages larger than $50 or $100 (Amazon can afford not to do this, because they can just ship you another of something and it doesn't hurt their bottom line - you can't).

I'd offer him the refund so long as he gives you back your titan. When (and only when), you receive the product back, then give him back his money. If, as people are mentioning, it is repairable, then repair it and sell it to someone else - next time to someone in your hemisphere, and with purchasing insurance.

Plus, any legal ramifications aside, "buyer beware" is a pretty disreputable way to run a business transaction, especially in a world of "the customer is always right".

**purplefood**

Ailaros wrote:I'd offer him the refund so long as he gives you back your titan. When (and only when), you receive the product back, then give him back his money. If, as people are mentioning, it is repairable, then repair it and sell it to someone else - next time to someone in your hemisphere, and with purchasing insurance.

This is reasonable.

**LunaHound**

Midnightdeathblade wrote:I have no clue, he sent me an iliterate messege insulting my product and saying how it was completly destroyed. Doesnt make sense cause I packed it with 3 shipping balloons and over 300 peanuts...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
300*

I saw your titan, and I can tell you without bias, that once one section breaks it'll bounce around inside the boxes,
it wouldn't matter if you had all those peanuts.

With that said, its partly buyers fault for thinking the flimsy GW box made Titan would survive.

**chaos0xomega**

Yeah, if he wants a refund he needs to return the product to you, that simple.

This is what you do, request photographs of the "damaged" items, if he doesnt procure them hes lying, if he does, inspect the photos closely (request additional photos if necessary so you can see the points of breakage). A photographic inspection should tell you what you need to know (either it really was damaged in shipping or hes lying to you and broke it himself, you know your own construction better than anyone, so you should know where it was most likely to break, etc.)

In the future:
use more robust construction techniques
insure it so that you can get your money back from damaged goods
dont ship to italy

**LunaHound**

chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, if he wants a refund he needs to return the product to you, that simple.

This is what you do, request photographs of the "damaged" items, if he doesnt procure them hes lying, if he does, inspect the photos closely (request additional photos if necessary so you can see the points of breakage). A photographic inspection should tell you what you need to know (either it really was damaged in shipping or hes lying to you and broke it himself, you know your own construction better than anyone, so you should know where it was most likely to break, etc.)

In the future:
use more robust construction techniques
insure it so that you can get your money back from damaged goods
dont ship to italy

I agree with everything ^

for shipping Titans OP, I suggest you find a way to bind the main body to the box, then put the peanuts in as cushioning and support.

**Darkwynn**

Doesn't matter if you think you should or shouldn't Ebay will make you issue a refund and side with the Buyer. They always do and that is their policy.

The only thing with Ebay is you fight with them showing the issue and results at hand and have Ebay refund you the item and amount that you sent to the Buyer.

I have been in that situation and you need to document everything and be ready to yell and scream with Ebay support and customer service because it isn't fun.

**keisukekun**

Also In the ebay terms the buyer is responsible to ship the item back on his own dime so make sure if you think your gonna have to do a refund tell him to ship it back and he will get refund on the return of the item. That way there will be less of a chance of you being completely screwed if he forces the refund and never returns the item.

I hate selling stuff on ebay but its a necessary evil sometimes. Amazon is worse so its the lesser of two evils.

**RxGhost**

I just don't offer returns on items I list on ebay. I wouldn't give him the refund either. I mean, even if he ships it back, you now have a broken titan for your troubles. And there's no way to prove that it was even broken in transit, right? Isn't it just as likely that he could have been careless with it and now wants a return, but is blaming you?

In your case, I would notify ebay (if you haven't yet) about this, showing the email exchanges you had with this guy about the very issues he's complaining about now.

Seriously, what a child. I get broken GW crap shipped to me every now and again and I just glue it back together.

EDIT: Check the item listing for your thing too, see if you had a return policy listed with the item.

**Ailaros**

RxGhost wrote:I just don't offer returns on items I list on ebay. I wouldn't give him the refund either. I mean, even if he ships it back, you now have a broken titan for your troubles. And there's no way to prove that it was even broken in transit, right? Isn't it just as likely that he could have been careless with it and now wants a return, but is blaming you?

Actually, it's the other way around. Without the ability to prove it broke in transit, the buyer can always claim that it was put into the box broken in the first place.

In any case, what you and the other "no return" people are advocating is mail fraud. If you give somebody money to get something mailed to you, and the other person doesn't give you what you paid them for, it's fraud, through the mail. Mail fraud. That's not just bad practice, that's a felony. Has been for 140 years now.

You have to either give him exactly what you advertised, an unbroken titan - REGARDLESS of how it's broken otherwise - or there's trouble. Of course, it is possible that the other person is committing the fraud and that he got it whole and then broke it, but that's going to be very difficult to prove (and, in any regard, much more difficult to prove than the other way around, given that you have the burden of proof).

You can demand your product back, but you can't withhold a refund. Even if you say "no refunds" that does not automatically abscond your responsibilities. Otherwise Bernie Madoff could have just snuck a "no refunds" clause into his investment agreements and have gotten away smelling like roses, rather than being imprisoned for a century for securities fraud.

I've worked for an eBay seller before, so I know how frustrating it can be to handle business over the internet, but your frustration doesn't give you the legal justification to just do whatever you want. It is precisely because of this that we have certain laws in the first place...

**TheMostSlyFox**

Personally, even some items I've bought and shipped just within the States has shown up on my doorstep in ruins... I just take the time to piece things back together and most of the time it works out that way. NOW; if everything was so utterly destroyed that it would be worth my time trying to get a refund instead of accepting the fact that postage sucks, I would most likely do so. Ask him for pictures of the end product, and if he refuses I see no liability issues on your end.

**GreatGunz**

Midnightdeathblade wrote:I understand that. But im running a small buisness. I told him specifically that theres a good chance that the item would be beaten up on the trip. He responded by saying something to the effect of, its fine! I can just re-glue it. I didnt want to go through with it, maby I shouldnt have, but he still agreed to my terms and warnings. I think I should have no reason to re-fund him.

Well I would definitely fight it. If I were you. Now that you've gone through th trouble of shipping this thing to him you definitely don't want to refund if you can help it.

**rigeld2**

Ailaros wrote:I've worked for an eBay seller before, so I know how frustrating it can be to handle business over the internet, but your frustration doesn't give you the legal justification to just do whatever you want. It is precisely because of this that we have certain laws in the first place...

"Yay I won! Plz2send to Italy."
".. It's gonna break. A lot."
"I don't care! I'll fix it!"
"Okay, I'll send it - but don't hold me responsible for damages."
<time passes>
"ITS BROKE! I DEMAND REFUND"
"Uh - no... I told you it'd be broke. You said you'd fix it."
"GIVES ME MAH MONIES AND MO FREE STUFZ"

Yeah, that's not mail fraud. That's normal business.

**Skriker**

Midnightdeathblade wrote:I recently had a sale on ebay of one of my warhound titans. I described the model (construction, durability, and size) and set the price at $100 and $15 shipping. A man from italy bought one. I wasnt sure if the titan would survive shipping overseas, and I told him this. So after a week or so of negotating, I shipped it, EXPRESS ($35) overseas. It arrives apparantly in pieces wich is no surprise to me (its not supposed to be thrown around like that) and he wants a full refund. He is also complaining that i didnt include the weapon barrels (this i also messeged him about) (they always break off durring shipping, and are easy to make) SOOO, should I isssue a refund?

This is what shipping insurance is for and why it irks me completely that Ebay took out the option to offer insurance on packages. Express Mail should include insurance on the value of the item. If he wants his money back then you can file a claim with the Postal Service for damages. I wouldn't give him any money out of your pocket for this. This is why I always ship globally using one of the big name and big priced services (Global Express, Federal Express or UPS) because insurance is usually included and they document everything very well for delivery to avoid this kind of BS. For a while I had a problem shipping to France. It seemed like half the packages just disappeared there and would result in insurance claims. Eventually I just stopped shipping there.

Skriker

**Ailaros**

rigeld2 wrote:"Yay I won! Plz2send to Italy."
".. It's gonna break. A lot."
"I don't care! I'll fix it!"
"Okay, I'll send it - but don't hold me responsible for damages."
<time passes>
"ITS BROKE! I DEMAND REFUND"
"Uh - no... I told you it'd be broke. You said you'd fix it."
"GIVES ME MAH MONIES AND MO FREE STUFZ"

Yeah, that's not mail fraud. That's normal business.

That's an interesting quote.

So is this one:

USC Title 18 Chapter 63 § 1341 wrote:...places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

Whether it's provable or not, the OP is flirting with a course of action that could possibly result in serious legal troubles. Is it worth it to prove what you consider to be a "moral" point of not needing to restitute for broken goods or services?

**rigeld2**

Ailaros wrote:Is it worth it to prove what you consider to be a "moral" point of not needing to restitute for broken goods or services?

If it was me - absolutely. I'd take this to court and appeal it as far as possible if required.

Yes, it would cost many times more than just replacing the thing. That's not the point.

edit: You also didn't quote the entire thing - and that's kind of important.

Spoiler:

There's no intent to defraud. The other party was informed in advance.