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I thought I saw that you ca pick which models die now as well. That would mean your large mobs wouldn't get eternally pushed backwards due to casualties.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm thinking about manz in trukks and what's the best way to run them with minimising the damage they take from explosions.

Ah, I misunderstood you then, sorry.

It's a bit WAAC-style but the rules actually allow you to field units with less than minimum model count units as long as you pay for all of them, so you could just put 5+1 gretchin with them. They next best thing is probably tankbustas, as they do something meaningful even in small numbers and benefit from being transported - unless their rules change a lot.

Also, my problem with footsloggers in 6 and 7 was not leadership - mob rule and bosspole nobz handled ld pretty darn good - the problem was that they couldn't make it across the table vs shooters and couldn't really hurt dedicated assaulters cause those were too fast and tough.

I'm not seeing this durability increase we're taling about. Yes, KFF is now stable and will grant 5++ but...in all honesty, my boyz often had 5+ cover and 5+++ anywayz. Now they get 5++ and 6+++. And we got to pay for kff. So, my gut feeling is that boyz will still be unable to make it across the field on foot. If something, tau are now even shootier and more mobile than before. And can overwatch infinitely. And those flamers are gona be mean.

It's too early to judge but i'm afraid that 100% footslogging is not going to be viable unless you spam wierdboyz or something.

I made a list about all the durability improvements somewhere earlier in this thread. The short version is that many weapons which were good at killing lots of orks are now a lot a lot worse at doing so, you no longer remove models from the front and once you have reached the enemy gunline (you need 1" less to do so in a charge now) you can probably keep a lot of units from shooting by consolidating into them or charging them with transports - if you have two MANz missiles with some sort of units to eat explosion wound in them, you might prevent up to three units from shooting.
Being able to run - now called advance - and shoot every turn also makes more units die to anything but lootaz and thus return less fire.

It's also a lot harder to kill the trukk now, if it uses the same formula as other vehicles, it will be T5, W8, 4+ now, which makes it impossible for single lascannon or melta to kill it.

Also note that a flamer has 8" range - if you charge from 9" (>70% chance with 'ere we go) they cannot shoot overwatch at you. On the other hand, no matter how bad you pile up, no flamer will ever be able to kill more than six models, and often will kill only 1 or 2 boyz. One of our most feared enemies has basically lost its teeth, I doubt that you will see huge amounts of them.

 Jidmah wrote:

I made a list about all the durability improvements somewhere earlier in this thread. The short version is that many weapons which were good at killing lots of orks are now a lot a lot worse at doing so, you no longer remove models from the front and once you have reached the enemy gunline (you need 1" less to do so in a charge now) you can probably keep a lot of units from shooting by consolidating into them or charging them with transports - if you have two MANz missiles with some sort of units to eat explosion wound in them, you might prevent up to three units from shooting.
Being able to run - now called advance - and shoot every turn also makes more units die to anything but lootaz and thus return less fire.

It's also a lot harder to kill the trukk now, if it uses the same formula as other vehicles, it will be T5, W8, 4+ now, which makes it impossible for single lascannon or melta to kill it.

Also note that a flamer has 8" range - if you charge from 9" (>70% chance with 'ere we go) they cannot shoot overwatch at you. On the other hand, no matter how bad you pile up, no flamer will ever be able to kill more than six models, and often will kill only 1 or 2 boyz. One of our most feared enemies has basically lost its teeth, I doubt that you will see huge amounts of them.

I'm talking about pure ork horde. So, manz missiles and trukks are out of the picture.

Also, 9' charge with a re-roll is a ~35% success chance - not >70.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm talking about pure ork horde. So, manz missiles and trukks are out of the picture.

Also, 9' charge with a re-roll is a ~35% success chance - not >70.

A 9" charge is normally 28% success but is 52% with one reroll, assuming 'Ere We Go gives us only one.

I'm trying to work out what all the new rules mean for our basic effectiveness in melee.

So no +1 A for charging anymore and no +1S for Furious Charge? We strike first instead, even with power klaws presumably with -1 to hit.

Choppa gives +1A but no bonus for two cc weapons so that's a wash.

Pistols let you shoot in the shooting phase at the unit you are locked with? So that's an extra attack?

So slugga boys will be slightly better in melee (weaker and faster on the charge, but extra shots from pistol)? Shoota boys will be the same after the initial charge. But presumably they will be Assault weapons capable of running and shooting so they can provide mobile fire support as they advance.

I would expect us to get charged a lot more with the changes to Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons. So shoota boys' Overwatch effectiveness will be useful.

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

I made a list about all the durability improvements somewhere earlier in this thread. The short version is that many weapons which were good at killing lots of orks are now a lot a lot worse at doing so, you no longer remove models from the front and once you have reached the enemy gunline (you need 1" less to do so in a charge now) you can probably keep a lot of units from shooting by consolidating into them or charging them with transports - if you have two MANz missiles with some sort of units to eat explosion wound in them, you might prevent up to three units from shooting.
Being able to run - now called advance - and shoot every turn also makes more units die to anything but lootaz and thus return less fire.

It's also a lot harder to kill the trukk now, if it uses the same formula as other vehicles, it will be T5, W8, 4+ now, which makes it impossible for single lascannon or melta to kill it.

Also note that a flamer has 8" range - if you charge from 9" (>70% chance with 'ere we go) they cannot shoot overwatch at you. On the other hand, no matter how bad you pile up, no flamer will ever be able to kill more than six models, and often will kill only 1 or 2 boyz. One of our most feared enemies has basically lost its teeth, I doubt that you will see huge amounts of them.

I'm talking about pure ork horde. So, manz missiles and trukks are out of the picture.

Also, 9' charge with a re-roll is a ~35% success chance - not >70.

You only need to come within 1", not base contact. So you need 8 or higher, which is a ~42% chance. A simple reroll of any result that is less than 8 bumps that to ~65%. 'ere we go currently allows you to reroll one dice or both (command reroll would allow that as well), and assuming you keep all 4's or better you end up somewhere beyond the 70% mark. If you like, I can do the exact math, I think I still have a spread sheet for that somewhere.

Before we continue arguing about stuff where I keep misunderstanding what you are talking about, please give me a definition of what you mean when you want a "pure ork horde". Nothing mounted on anything? No walkers? Just boyz?

Ashkayel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm talking about pure ork horde. So, manz missiles and trukks are out of the picture.

Also, 9' charge with a re-roll is a ~35% success chance - not >70.

A 9" charge is normally 28% success but is 52% with one reroll, assuming 'Ere We Go gives us only one.

oh, yep, i forgot the 1" extra move, so that we don't need to roll 10+, instead we need 9+

So, the result is 48% if the re-roll is both dice. Anywayz, around 50%. Not too bad but i'd not build a strategy around that. I'd actually prefer to ds something shooty - like a mob of shootaboyz.

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
I'm trying to work out what all the new rules mean for our basic effectiveness in melee.

So no +1 A for charging anymore and no +1S for Furious Charge? We strike first instead, even with power klaws presumably with -1 to hit.

We actually don't know the bolded part. Could literally go in any direction, as Khorne units got to keep Furious Charge and it now works even when charged. Might have been rolled into our stat-line, might be gone. It's probably the single most important thing we don't know yet. I wish someone would leak the new books already.

Pistols let you shoot in the shooting phase at the unit you are locked with? So that's an extra attack?

Slightly worse, as they will probably hit shooting on 5+ and melee on 3+. On the plus side, in longer fights you get those shots before the enemy strikes, shooting down a Khorne Berzerker or two before they strike might make the difference.

I would expect us to get charged a lot more with the changes to Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons. So shoota boys' Overwatch effectiveness will be useful.

Getting charged isn't as bad anymore though, as they won't get an extra attack from it either. A unit of Intercessors (bolter numarines), for example, would be better off moving away than counter-charging as they will only get 11 attacks on the charge and take overwatch first, while otherwise they would get the same amount of attacks plus overwatch.

Thanks, Jidmah. It's good to see you back on here! It seemed like you were gone for a while. The Ork community is better with you around!

Alos remember that tons of cheap boyz in many mobs can do damage to anything now. It's easy to take out one 30 boy squad, but not 5 of them, so those mobs will be footsloggin their way up as fast as possible to get to the battle and they will cause damage. It may still not be ideal for some, but it is at least more viable now than it has been to have some mobs alive and well enough to charge.

 Jidmah wrote:
You only need to come within 1", not base contact. So you need 8 or higher, which is a ~42% chance. A simple reroll of any result that is less than 8 bumps that to ~65%. 'ere we go currently allows you to reroll one dice or both (command reroll would allow that as well), and assuming you keep all 4's or better you end up somewhere beyond the 70% mark. If you like, I can do the exact math, I think I still have a spread sheet for that somewhere.

Ahh cause we are talking about being able to charge from outside a flamer's range (so 8.5" away, meaning a 8" charge). In the case of "deepstriking" units deployed more than 9" away from enemy units, that's a 9" charge.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if a "don't mind the range of weapons when shooting overwatch" rule gets FAQ'ed.

I wonder if we will be able to use Da Jump on a Stompa.. edit.. nope :(.

Edit.. Da Jump Ghazzy right into a mess?

I am mildly upset they will not let us Da Jump Burna close enough to fire.. everyone else got to do it. Even more angry that melta will be likely in bonus range when IoM deepstrike

Ashkayel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm talking about pure ork horde. So, manz missiles and trukks are out of the picture.

Also, 9' charge with a re-roll is a ~35% success chance - not >70.

A 9" charge is normally 28% success but is 52% with one reroll, assuming 'Ere We Go gives us only one.

Ere we go rerolls both dice as far as rumours go (you don't get to choose the lowest die)
Second you need a full 9in charge not 8in with free 1in since you can only da jump OVER 9 in away

Unless you are running across the boards with I presume 6in plus d6 advance then you can get away with 8.5in away and an 8 in charge.

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Thanks, Jidmah. It's good to see you back on here! It seemed like you were gone for a while. The Ork community is better with you around!

Glad to hear

I was gone a while - the current codex was already a very low quality product (I found holes in their rules in the first read-through) and the supplement was rules-wise pretty much junk, but at least the new orks were fun to play... until everybody got their codex updates and pretty much got five to ten times what orks got - even the friggin' Eldar got buffed.
After a series of crushing defeats against pretty much everybody who knew how to build and play an army that was not terrible I stopped playing. When I heard that we got an Orkurion, I downloaded it from my Black Library account and was furious at what was nothing less than a cheerful "Screw you, we already got your money!" to all ork players out there. Therefore I decided to sell all my orks and not give GW a single cent until they manage to make a game that is at least worth playing.
I have better things to do than waste 4+ hours of my free time on a game that I have neither fun playing nor a chance of winning unless my opponent loses on purpose.

Therefore I have high hopes for these rules now. If the manage to reduce game time so I can play on free evenings instead of sacrificing entire Sundays and Orks are at least back to the power level of 5th, I will endlessly grateful to the guy who never came by to pick up the Orks I sold him.

The mission that they spoiled ends at round 5 so it is faster

I like what I see so far for orks. It mostly benefits hordes (I personally run dreddmob with emphasis on kanz and deffdredds) so I'm still waiting to see if ork rules give the stompiest of units anything good (but new rules for vehicles gives great benefits already ).
A Morkanaut with kff is not as useful at covering boys as a mek with one with current rules (since the mek is arguably more survivable with it not being targeted except by snipers, and it only needs to touch a single model to cover a unit), but a morkanaut with kff is better at covering dredd squads (I'm guessing deffdredds can be taken in squads now and kanz will keep their large squad sizes).
I also can wait to see how good wrecking balls on trucks will be, cause if it's useful for combat I might actualy make my truck kanz conversions (basically a truck with a killa kan bolted ti the front, making the fastest kanz on the battlefield field).

Let's hope we can finally field hordes without them being unplayable. What i'm afraid is that i'll be forced to roll with a naught for kff. Just cause sniper weapons are so dangerous for our characters. I'd expect our meks and painboys to have 3-4 wounds. Which is not really that much when you consider what sniper drones can do from across the table. And there are still 2-3 turns to hold up before we can attempt anything.

Well, i really doubt pure footslogging is gona be effective. At least not to the same degree as pure mech. On the other hand, hybrid builds might actually become decent now.

They seem to really be pushing mixed lists right now. Footsloggers are thematic, but also technically spammy, and for now it doesn't look like GW is encouraging that.

 JohnU wrote:
They seem to really be pushing mixed lists right now. Footsloggers are thematic, but also technically spammy, and for now it doesn't look like GW is encouraging that.

Are you drunk? (Jk)

There will be tags on vehicles so melta can murder them. High damage weapons will be for multi wound models. A mixed list with mixed models will make these weapons all the more efficient just like today. Nearby large units offering their leadership to morale checks in other units encourages duplicate 30 man squads. I heard there is a formation for three super heavies that offers 3 command points. All this should be evidence that unit spam is okay.

 Rismonite wrote:

 JohnU wrote:
They seem to really be pushing mixed lists right now. Footsloggers are thematic, but also technically spammy, and for now it doesn't look like GW is encouraging that.

Are you drunk? (Jk)

Probably

There will be tags on vehicles so melta can murder them. High damage weapons will be for multi wound models. A mixed list with mixed models will make these weapons all the more efficient just like today. Nearby large units offering their leadership to morale checks in other units encourages duplicate 30 man squads. I heard there is a formation for three super heavies that offers 3 command points. All this should be evidence that unit spam is okay.

Deep strike melta is out range now and multimelta are really expensive. The super heavy formation is so Knights can still play (though those beardy elves will try with WKs). High damage weapons are bad against medium sized Ork squads since damage doesn't carry over per model.

As far as Orks go, a few big boy mobs for the LD along with some units in trukks/wagons or deep striking/outflanking will probably perform better than all hordes/all trukks on the outset.

It's still a game of numbers so there will always be winners and losers, I just hope this edition the difference between the two is a lot smaller.

thenewgozoku wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:
So:

My boss is at the backlines
Boyz are out of waaagh range
Boyz move
Boyz advance
We tele boss into waaghh range
Can the boyz charge?

At first I thought it was an ork war song.

It's n' old Ork tale sung in da dirties' of tarverns o' bout n' weirdest o' weeeirdboyz, Doc 'arisdotle Moon Flounderer.
Its da' greatest kondrum o' all ork history, a question every ork ponders on the grizzled nights. an' is da first question every new boy is ass'ed
Many weirdboyz pay 'omage to Doc. Aris an' hunt endlessly for da 'suppos'd' lost nose o' Statue Aris
Many rumours say da' its cos o' dis nose da' were all weirdboy powers origin'd.
In der endless hunt to answer dis internal burnin' question, piercin' der savage hearts. Der pain an sufferin' drives da boyz to manifest des outcry's o' soul burning sadness in forms o' raw energy

Da jump is commonly fought to 'ave been first sighted in da' Grummdog slums, many boyz a first fought it was n' evil spirit of a cryin' BossNob floatin',
floatin' thru walls
n' boyz,
n' faces n' rumps
No boy was safe from the humps

Till one day a local weirdnob saw this fam'ous floatn' spirit. he realised instantly it was one o' his breverin lost so deep, deep deep in da nose he was teleportin' milymeters suppaa dupppaa fast, n' goin' everwher' blendin' his BossNob body wit all objects he goes thro
floatin' thru walls
n' boyz,
n' faces n' rumps
No boy was safe from the humps

Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm thinking about manz in trukks and what's the best way to run them with minimising the damage they take from explosions.

Ah, I misunderstood you then, sorry.

It's a bit WAAC-style but the rules actually allow you to field units with less than minimum model count units as long as you pay for all of them, so you could just put 5+1 gretchin with them. They next best thing is probably tankbustas, as they do something meaningful even in small numbers and benefit from being transported - unless their rules change a lot.

How I read that was; You could have only 1 per army As it says that you are allowed to field a unit. but it takes up a slot. I cant find the page it was on again. But i got the distinct impression it was once.

I'm just looking forward to being able to field a dread mob, I love the walkers but haven't been able to field them effectively. StompA and StompB (my 2 deff dreads I have now) want to have their bigger brothers made for them, but they sucked so bad I never even wanted to try.

If ork dreads are even close to marine dreads, they'd be pretty good. In all honesty, i'd expect them to have very similar statlines regarding durability and movement speed. Sure, we got no pods and our shooting is worse but we've got more attacks and now that ini doesn't matter, we can go toe to toe with MC and other walkers. It might actually be a decent way of dealing with monster mash for footslogging orks. I wonder if dread weapons will be p-fists and have a to-hit penalty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solar Shock wrote:

You know, it's funny that after so much time we're still discussing if manz missile sucks or not. I guess it's a life-long question to answer.

I'm thinking about putting da bullyboyz in BWs with some boyz/specialist with them, now that wagons should resist one turn of shooting (or at least 2 out of 3).

3x5 meganobz with 3 BWs as dedicated transport and something like 10 boyz, 5-10 tankbustas or 5 burna boyz to fill the empty seats.

Or maybe smaller units of meganobz but I always loved those big guys and if they finally get a more resilient transport than the paper trukk I guess I'm going to play them very very often

Footslogging units don't fit my style and I hope that bikes, trukks, BWs and buggies will be compettive in 8th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
If ork dreads are even close to marine dreads, they'd be pretty good. In all honesty, i'd expect them to have very similar statlines regarding durability and movement speed. Sure, we got no pods and our shooting is worse but we've got more attacks and now that ini doesn't matter, we can go toe to toe with MC and other walkers. It might actually be a decent way of dealing with monster mash for footslogging orks. I wonder if dread weapons will be p-fists and have a to-hit penalty.

Problems with our dreads are the crappy BS2 and the fact that they're heavy supports instead of elites, like the SM dreads. While bigger walkers like nauts or stompas will probably benefit from the change of rules (T and W instead of AV and HP) I don't see deff dreads worthy of getting a chance.

There is a leaked image floating around of some of the other detachments. You can basically swap out troops for any other force org slot. The cost? You only get a single command point. We'll see if that is worth it or not, but that it how you can get a Dread Mob in the short term. I'm hoping one of the eventual ork detachments gives us a more satisfying answer.

Hmm, those point costs for Chaos transports leave me with a bad feeling.

70 point Rhinos before any gear...

According to the leak thread, Battlewagons are T7 (hard case now gives it T8 with the same debuffs as before), have a 4+ save, and 16 wounds. This just doesn't sound right. If it is, I can't see anything but a point increase for these things.

Also, I'm hoping orks will have some general rule akin to furious charge where we get +1ATK and +1S on all charges on pretty much every unit. If boyz are always S3 then there's pretty much no reason to ever take them.

 JohnU wrote:
Hmm, those point costs for Chaos transports leave me with a bad feeling.

70 point Rhinos before any gear...

I dunno, I feel like orks are THE faction to get away with cheap transport spamming. Probably why the rumor is saying trukks will be t5 with a 5+

Ork is m5 s4 t4

Stompa 900 pts. Trukk 76. Open toped vehicles dont give any bonus expext for shooting from inside

Trukk m12 w10 t6 sv4+

Battlewagon M12" W16 T7 Save 4+, can get T8 but loses Open-topped. Deff Rolla hits on a 2+, 6 attacks S8 Ap-2

 davou wrote:

 JohnU wrote:
Hmm, those point costs for Chaos transports leave me with a bad feeling.

70 point Rhinos before any gear...

I dunno, I feel like orks are THE faction to get away with cheap transport spamming. Probably why the rumor is saying trukks will be t5 with a 5+

And now that trukks only kill 1/6th of the time instead of a little less than 1/2 of the time (accounting for a S4 hit and 6+ armor), they're much, much better for everything that isn't a meganob. I really wouldn't mind a slight point increase. Even then, just throw in a naked mek into the MANz unit and you're good to go. Rolling two 1's out of 4 dice isn't unheard of, I've certainly done worse with MANz, but it's still a pretty safe way to do things since we know we remove models in this fashion, regardless of unit makeup.