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so if the votann had the beards of the olden days, do you think theyd tuck them in or let them hang out of the armor?

Andykp wrote:

Votann-
Short ✔️
Beards ✔️
Tools ✔️

That’s the whole “dwarf” checklist there.

Forge fathers-
Weird helmets, weird leg proportions making them too heavy, piss poor quality. Yes they are dwarfy but they are hideous (IMO). Only thing worse is their version of ORKS. They are FUGLY.

Yea real short. Almost space marine height Since when ~6 feet is short?

Gee. Are you 9 feet giant if you consider 6 short?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
so if the votann had the beards of the olden days, do you think theyd tuck them in or let them hang out of the armor?

I was initially going to say hang out, but they do wear sealed suits. Unless they have a way of sealing around the beard (most 40k thing ever) I think they'd tuck them in.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
so if the votann had the beards of the olden days, do you think theyd tuck them in or let them hang out of the armor?

Old squats had short beards, but for this thin’ they would platt then and have beard buns.

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Votann-
Short ✔️
Beards ✔️
Tools ✔️

That’s the whole “dwarf” checklist there.

Forge fathers-
Weird helmets, weird leg proportions making them too heavy, piss poor quality. Yes they are dwarfy but they are hideous (IMO). Only thing worse is their version of ORKS. They are FUGLY.

Yea real short. Almost space marine height Since when ~6 feet is short?

Gee. Are you 9 feet giant if you consider 6 short?

Hmmmmmm

as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)

 kodos wrote:
as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)

Andykp wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.

Andykp wrote:
I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.

I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.

30 years ago! RTB01 wouldn’t make a dent in the market if someone released something of that poor quality now. GW have even redone the old spacemarine stuff and I love it, but it’s so much better than the old stuff.

Not looked at mantic stuff for a while, let alone bought any, but their thing was always that they were cheaper then GW, but they never came close quality wise.

What was the competition like when Mantic's dwarfs were released? GW and Privateer Press were sure to be there, but anything else of note? For GW those were simpler times compared to their current models, and... I'm not going to say anything about Privateer Press models so as not to be rude. But more importantly who else did space dwarfs at the time? Sure, Mantic doesn't usually have sculpting quality on their side. Zombies are a rare exception to that, even without GW stubbornly refusing to redo their zombies from the 90s until last year. But if they make space dwarfs when no one else does, they get to shape opinions on what a space dwarf is supposed to look like. That's bound to be a pretty strong influence if they can keep it up for ten or more years until they get competition from small studios that make higher quality resin models, or 3D sculpts and GW's attempt of late.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care for Mantic's space dwarfs. I just wouldn't be dismissive of their influence as I know first hand that liking the idea of a model can overrule the actual execution quite easily. I love Terminators. Always have. Always will. But the models have never been remotely human in anatomy, which is something I value very highly in my miniatures and that should make me reject Terminators. Yet here we are.

 Geifer wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.

Andykp wrote:
I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.

I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.

30 years ago! RTB01 wouldn’t make a dent in the market if someone released something of that poor quality now. GW have even redone the old spacemarine stuff and I love it, but it’s so much better than the old stuff.

Not looked at mantic stuff for a while, let alone bought any, but their thing was always that they were cheaper then GW, but they never came close quality wise.

What was the competition like when Mantic's dwarfs were released? GW and Privateer Press were sure to be there, but anything else of note? For GW those were simpler times compared to their current models, and... I'm not going to say anything about Privateer Press models so as not to be rude. But more importantly who else did space dwarfs at the time? Sure, Mantic doesn't usually have sculpting quality on their side. Zombies are a rare exception to that, even without GW stubbornly refusing to redo their zombies from the 90s until last year. But if they make space dwarfs when no one else does, they get to shape opinions on what a space dwarf is supposed to look like. That's bound to be a pretty strong influence if they can keep it up for ten or more years until they get competition from small studios that make higher quality resin models, or 3D sculpts and GW's attempt of late.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care for Mantic's space dwarfs. I just wouldn't be dismissive of their influence as I know first hand that liking the idea of a model can overrule the actual execution quite easily. I love Terminators. Always have. Always will. But the models have never been remotely human in anatomy, which is something I value very highly in my miniatures and that should make me reject Terminators. Yet here we are.

From the top of my head, from days of old.

Bob Olley range of dwarfs, Hasslefree Grymn and Macrocosm to name some... then PP and only after than I would go for Mantic.

I had some mantic stuff back in the rank and file infantry days of WFB because they were dirt cheap and in big blocks the slightly iffy models were less obvious. You lose that benefit in loose order.

Not saying mantic don’t have their place but it’s a stretch to my tastes to hold them up as a the paragon of space dwarves. All very subjective I know.

At their time there wasn’t any alternative plastic about I don’t think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)

There is no old marine in there, and they are shorter than the cultists from the same era as old marines, so unless cultists were crazy tall then they must be shorter. See Navarros pic to confirm. They may not be the 4 foot Warhammer community said but they are still represented as shorter than the standard human, therefore, Short ✔️

Remember, those Votann are on 28mm bases, which are thicker (slightly) than the 25mm base the marine is on. If a marine were 6 feet tall, I'd place the Votann at 5'5" tall.

Ya and 5.5 is way to tall for a dwarf that like average human size.
Excuse me I looked it up its 5.9 so your telling me that anyone slightly shorter than average should be called a dwarf?

Boosykes wrote:
Ya and 5.5 is way to tall for a dwarf that like average human size.
Excuse me I looked it up its 5.9 so your telling me that anyone slightly shorter than average should be called a dwarf?

At the risk of bringing logic into 40k, you have hit on the core of the size issue. Dwarfism is defined as 4'10" or less. In 28mm scale (measurements from sole to eyeline) that's about 22mm which happens to be the height of a WGA Einherjar space dwarf.

Votaan are 25-26mm. Even if you assume 40k is now 30mm scale, Votaan aren't Dwarves. They're just shorter than average husky people. Might not matter to most folks but it's one more point of data anyway.

If anyone is curious about the actual heights of original squats and other space Dwarves, I did allot of comparisons and measurements for my Einherjar review.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2022/10/cheap-sprue-review-wga-einherjar-space-dwarves-and-a-squat-roundup/

I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.

GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.

A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.

In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.

It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.

It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.

you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs

GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier

so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology

If Elves can range from Tolkien to Keebler, there is no reason to assume that there is a single Dwarf archetype that the Votaan must strictly adhere to. Compared to the humans of the setting, they are stocky, sturdy, and industrious. Just because they may be able to ride a roller coaster doesn't mean they aren't True Scotsmen.

 Hellebore wrote:
I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.

GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.

A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.

In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.

It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.

It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.

This ^^^^^^ 100%




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
If Elves can range from Tolkien to Keebler, there is no reason to assume that there is a single Dwarf archetype that the Votaan must strictly adhere to. Compared to the humans of the setting, they are stocky, sturdy, and industrious. Just because they may be able to ride a roller coaster doesn't mean they aren't True Scotsmen.

Also this ^^^^

 Hellebore wrote:
I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.

GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.

A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.

In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.

It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.

It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.

The thing that I really don't understand, is that this has always been the case. I mean always. At no point has GW done anything at a true scale. And yet every single time something like this happens, people complain about it. The new cadians are exactly the same. Scales have changed with pretty much every release.

 Hellebore wrote:
I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.

GW certainly has.

*rimshot*

 NAVARRO wrote:

 kodos wrote:
as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)

Yeah...those are also older firstborn. Would be a better comparison to use Deathwatch or at least Space Marine Hero marines

 GaroRobe wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 kodos wrote:
as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)

Yeah...those are also older firstborn. Would be a better comparison to use Deathwatch or at least Space Marine Hero marines

Plus the Votann model is still a full head shorter than that bow-legged marine- his face would sit at chest height, despite the low stance of the marine. But nothing designed now is scaled to those marine designs, they have been rescaling and changing the proportions on pretty much all the recent releases since Primaris. Jes is probably using the redesign of core troops as a chance to fix the scale of the different ranges.
The Votann feel to me very "dwarf" - they are dwarf in the same way as Eldar are elves. Honestly I haven't enjoyed anything GW has released in the last few years, these have really fired me up again.

 Eilif wrote:
Votaan are 25-26mm. Even if you assume 40k is now 30mm scale, Votaan aren't Dwarves. They're just shorter than average husky people.

I looked at the models. They're not dwarfs, but they're certainly not short anthropomorphic doggos either.

...

I had to.

...

I'm not sorry.

 Hellebore wrote:
In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.

I agree that this is likely the primary reason for their size. I find the idea that their weapons would be absurdly oversized questionable, though. Absurdly oversized weapons describes GW models, period. If GW wanted to downsize the dudes, they could easily downsize the weapons proportionally without losing detail.

 kodos wrote:
you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs

GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier

so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology

What they're called in irrelevant to them being intended to be Dwarfs.

And GW has said that they're about 4'4", anyway.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs

GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier

so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology

What they're called in irrelevant to them being intended to be Dwarfs.

And GW has said that they're about 4'4", anyway.

Interesting. I had no idea that GW had given them an official height. I don't think there's any way they are close to 4'4" no matter how you stretch the scale comparisons.

I think GW has just become increasingly allergic to small models. Consider Necromunda which originally (in the 90's) was as small or smaller than the contemporary 40k figures lines. Now it's notably larger. Yet somehow 40k Votaan ended up larger than Necromunda Squats despite them presumably being similar beings and Necromunda being the larger scale!!!

It's mind bending and shockingly inconsistent especially since with current technology it should be easier than ever to standardize scales. Even with scale creep being innevitable, one would think that the company producing the "best wargaming models in the world" would pay better attention to scale.

 Eilif wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs

GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier

so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology

What they're called in irrelevant to them being intended to be Dwarfs.

And GW has said that they're about 4'4", anyway.

Interesting. I had no idea that GW had given them an official height. I don't think there's any way they are close to 4'4" no matter how you stretch the scale comparisons.

I think GW has just become increasingly allergic to small models. Consider Necromunda which originally (in the 90's) was as small or smaller than the contemporary 40k figures lines. Now it's notably larger. Yet somehow 40k Votaan ended up larger than Necromunda Squats despite them presumably being similar beings and Necromunda being the larger scale!!!

It's mind bending and shockingly inconsistent especially since with current technology it should be easier than ever to standardize scales. Even with scale creep being innevitable, one would think that the company producing the "best wargaming models in the world" would pay better attention to scale.

Misremembered, it's not 4'4", it's just 4 foot:

The first thing you might notice is that they look a little squat compared to many other races in the galaxy. Measuring up at around 4ft (1.4m) on average, Kin are miniscule compared to the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, but they can pack almost as much of a punch.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/30/lore-of-the-votann-the-anatomy-of-the-kin/

Bit of an odd conversion, as 1.4 meters is closer to 4.5 feet.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The first thing you might notice is that they look a little squat compared to many other races in the galaxy. Measuring up at around 4ft (1.4m) on average, Kin are miniscule compared to the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, but they can pack almost as much of a punch.

The squat reference is cute but Ugh. When you're so desperate to sell a new faction you make them almost space Marines.

To be honest, where else were they supposed to go for a race that has long been described as more than a "normal" human? There isn't much breathing room within the stats between guardsmen and Marines.

They could've just not said they're super organisms. They coulda done that.

I haven’t been keeping a close eye on the latest releases, but I hadn’t seen any chat about Votann psykers.

I play the Combat Cards game, and one just popped up in the card art there.



Apologies if this is old news.