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my question is simple

castellan crowe has a monster of a weapon but he is scared to use it to the point were it hinders more than helps. so how much of a price up do you think it would be just to change it from giving the enemy furious charge and rending on 4+ to a deamonblade?

i think 30 points but i mant good at this

i ask because my friends dont mind codex edits (one person uses a home made codex al together!) so want to fix what makes this guy arguable the worst guy in the game

one word : Aun'Va. Do not ever tell me you ever have the worst guy in the game.

The strength of Crowe is not that he is some super beatstick, but that he allows for one of the best units in-game to become a troops choice.

He's fine as-is.

Iranna.

The dude is decent in combat despite his drawbacks, and his real strength is the force org modification. He works fine as is, not everyone can be Draigo.

iranna panopticon - ok
slickvictory - he gives you a bonus in close combat yes he is one of the worst

He's perfectly fine as is, no need for any modification. As above, he's not supposed to be a super pwn all characters; he's there to modify the force org chart.

No change necessary.

ok he is good as is.

none the less i just want to know how much of a price up you think it would be

50 points. If you take away his drawback and give him an upgrade......50 points at least. He is already one of the better characters out there (how can you say he's the worst?????) so to make him better should cost you big.

The bonuses only apply to units CHARGING him. If you charge a unit with Crowe, Cast Cleansing Flame, and then use his defensive rerollable save stance then he is a beast. You can cast cleansing flame every combat as well.

ow i thought the rule was when in combat the enemy always counts as being in furious charge

in that case he isnt to bad

at another 50 points he would be 200 which seems like a large amount so i amnt going to rip my lis t up to find the points ow well

thanks for atleast helping me see he isnt THAT bad

destuctir wrote:
i ask because my friends dont mind codex edits (one person uses a home made codex al together!) so want to fix what makes this guy arguable the worst guy in the game

You're lack of understand dictates you're not qualified to invent rules.

destuctir wrote:my question is simple

castellan crowe has a monster of a weapon but he is scared to use it to the point were it hinders more than helps. so how much of a price up do you think it would be just to change it from giving the enemy furious charge and rending on 4+ to a deamonblade?

i think 30 points but i mant good at this

i ask because my friends dont mind codex edits (one person uses a home made codex al together!) so want to fix what makes this guy arguable the worst guy in the game

Waaaaah, I love the tears of GK players. Grow up dude.

If I was gonna edit Castellan Crowe, I'd remove the Daemon weapon entirely. Makes no sense and is yet another crappy part of background that Mat Ward wrote

To go back to the OPs question, here's my thought.

To use his sword Crowe, the purest of the pure must give in to corruption and temptation.

So...

Crowe's sword is a S6 power weapon he may use with his other powers.

However if he uses it the GKs automatically lose regardless of mission.

So no price hike because its just a last ditch hurt the other guy thing when you know you'll lose anyway.

I always thought it would be cool if his abilities changed in-game if certain conditions were met. For example, each time the enemy wipes out a unit of purifiers Crowe takes a Ld test and if he passes he gains one USR that he imparts to his unit. This is representing him mustering up strength to resist the temptation of using the sword.

If he fails the Ld test he loses any USR that he has and uses the sword (S6 power weapon, +d6 attacks, roll of a "1" self-wounds and so on) and gains the "rage" USR. All Purifier units cease to be scoring. If it's a kill point game he is worth d3 kill points.

Crowe is fine the way he his. As it has been stated many times he is more often used for the fact he allows you to take Purfiers as a troop choice.

With that said he is actuall really useful in holding up large squads in CC. Cast Purifying flame and use defensive stance and he's most likely going to live a few turns while taking some enemies out each turn.

He doens't need to be changed.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:To go back to the OPs question, here's my thought.

To use his sword Crowe, the purest of the pure must give in to corruption and temptation.

So...

Crowe's sword is a S6 power weapon he may use with his other powers.

However if he uses it the GKs automatically lose regardless of mission.

So no price hike because its just a last ditch hurt the other guy thing when you know you'll lose anyway.

This is a great idea!

destuctir wrote:ow i thought the rule was when in combat the enemy always counts as being in furious charge

in that case he isnt to bad

at another 50 points he would be 200 which seems like a large amount so i amnt going to rip my lis t up to find the points ow well

thanks for atleast helping me see he isnt THAT bad

First, Punctuation. Use it. Second, he's actually pretty good.
-2+ Armor save
-4+ Invuln
-Can choose between re-rolling failed armor saves, hitting everything in BC once, or attacking an IC or MC d3 (+1 if he charges) times. Oh, and he auto-wounds on a 4+.
-If he and his unit assault, they can re-roll failed rolls to hit.
-He makes Purifiers troops, making one of the best elite units the best troop choice in the game (they are cheaper Paladins), because you can have more than two full squads with room to spare.
-Only two drawbacks: 2 wounds and enemies who charge him get FC and re-rolls to hit. Brotip: Don't get charged.

Not only can this guy+Purifiers take on a Draigowing and win, but they are exceptionally good against horde armies. It doesn't matter if Crowe gets charged, because he's Initiative 6, the majority of his squad (or all of it) can be I 6, and he can cause wounds before the combat even technically starts. You can't get killed if everything that charged you is dead before they can hit back. Just try not to get charged by Mephiston or a Hive Tyrant, which is fairly easy to do. Oh, and at 150 points, he's 125 points cheaper than Draigo.

Moreover, don't forget about Heroic Sacrifice which can be used to take out units much more expensive than he (Crowe) is. No, Crowe is actually quite a good character. He can tarpit many units. And he can kill hordes and super-duper uber enemy characters. The trick is to avoid having him shot to death before he gets there.

But I like Kid Kiyoto's suggestion.

Here's mine:

It is a S5 power weapon which also rends on a 4+. He gets +D6 attacks with it but if he rolls a 1, he forfeits all attacks that turn and instead takes a wound with no armour saves allowed (this is basically the rules for a daemon weapon in the CSM codex). In addition, he gains the Rage and Furious Charge universal special rules.

In any objectives game, if he is killed, leave him on the table. He is now an objective that the grey knights need to claim. If they don't claim his body when the game ends, then the enemy counts as having the objective.

In annihilation, he gives up D3 KP's to the enemy.

Bascially, the 2 rules listed above is the same as Bjorn's rule.

Cost = +30pts

Or, just stop having GKs wielding tools of Chaos because it is stupid fluff and got the Relictors in trouble. Just give him a relic blade style weapon +1 S power weapon) and call it a day.

jmurph wrote:Or, just stop having GKs wielding tools of Chaos because it is stupid fluff and got the Relictors in trouble. Just give him a relic blade style weapon +1 S power weapon) and call it a day.

to al intensive purposes the grey knight fluff is .................... (do i really need to say it?)

i mean i guy walking through the realm of deamons. stupid
ghosts seeking vengeance show up in battle to protect a guy. stupid
an invincible sword of pure evil. stupid

the list goes on. mat ward really mucked the fluff up big time. i ignore most of it





as MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY people have now said ok he is fine and not horrible but i still think his fluff is dumb. why could they just give him a power sword and be done with it

destuctir wrote:i mean i guy walking through the realm of deamons. stupid
ghosts seeking vengeance show up in battle to protect a guy. stupid
an invincible sword of pure evil. stupid

Wow, you're right... I mean no one in the history of mankind has ever used these kind of stories before. How dare Ward do it!
Oh wait, those are popular ideas for a reason.

the list goes on. mat ward really mucked the fluff up big time. i ignore most of it

That explains your informed opinions.

why could they just give him a power sword and be done with it

Conflict is interesting. A pure hero having to literally wrestle with evil every waking moment is much cooler than 'He has a shiny new power sword'.

pretre wrote:

destuctir wrote:i mean i guy walking through the realm of deamons. stupid
ghosts seeking vengeance show up in battle to protect a guy. stupid
an invincible sword of pure evil. stupid

Wow, you're right... I mean no one in the history of mankind has ever used these kind of stories before. How dare Ward do it!
Oh wait, those are popular ideas for a reason.

the list goes on. mat ward really mucked the fluff up big time. i ignore most of it

That explains your informed opinions.

why could they just give him a power sword and be done with it

Conflict is interesting. A pure hero having to literally wrestle with evil every waking moment is much cooler than 'He has a shiny new power sword'.

ok fine its not like everyone doesnt do it but really i tohught they would be more serious and realistics even in htis type of game

hey thats not very nice besides fluff has no say in the rules

ok it makes a good story but dont mkae him a worse model because it works with the fluff. even just making it a beat stick in close combat like it shut of its power to him is better than making the enemy better

destuctir wrote:ok fine its not like everyone doesnt do it but really i tohught they would be more serious and realistics even in htis type of game

You want serious and realism in a game about space elves, space knights and space demons?

hey thats not very nice besides fluff has no say in the rules

Fluff is often where the designers draw from to create rules.

ok it makes a good story but dont mkae him a worse model because it works with the fluff. even just making it a beat stick in close combat like it shut of its power to him is better than making the enemy better

Wait, so you want him to be more powerful? He's already pretty good, but you're saying the GK is underpowered because he has that weapons instead of a Power Weapon?

That's a new one.

Exactly. Crowe is supposed to be a super-Purifier (like draigo is a super-Paladin). The problem is that the Blade of Antyr- anwtyr- screw it the Blade of Bad Decisions is a ham-fisted attempt at pushing some sort of downside to being WS8, I6, rending on a 4+, and allowing purifiers as troops. But why? There is literally zero downside to anything Draigo has or does. Crow also has 2 less wounds than Draigo.

You know, just give him a CCW. Some ancient sword, passed down through the generations of Purifiers, of unknown make, yet not daemonic. Don't put BS daemon gak in there, put tradition, put honor, put something that makes sense.

Castellan Crowe..................... 150 points
Same stats, same abilities, etc. Only difference is as follows:

The Blade of Antwyr: Discovered 3 thousand years ago on the planet of Antwyr, the Blade of Antwyr quickly became a badge of honor for those who wielded it. The Blade of Antwyr is a simple sword, its blade etched ancient runes. How those runes were etches onto the blade is a mystery to all, for the weapon is indestructible. It has clashed with a thousands axes of a thousand Bloodthirsters, pierced the armor of thousands of traitors, and even though it is a simple blade, in the 3 thousand years it has been in use, not a scratch has appeared nor has the blade chipped. It is eternal, and for those who are chosen to wield it, is a symbol of their undying quest to vanquish Chaos, for as long as the Blade of Antwyr holds true, so shall their soul. It is no surprise, then, that the blade has come into the hands of the most pure and noble Purifier, Castellan Garran Crowe.

The Blade of Antwyr is a Close Combat Weapon.

No daemon weapon. No weapon saying "come at me bro" to everything in a 10 mile radius. Just a simple blade.

McNinja wrote:You know, just give him a CCW. Some ancient sword, passed down through the generations of Purifiers, of unknown make, yet not daemonic. Don't put BS daemon gak in there, put tradition, put honor, put something that makes sense.

You're missing the point. The Blade is there, like many before it in literature, to show the conflict between good and evil. A weapon for good that it ultimately evil and is only safe in the hands of the hero is a time-tested formula.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnholyHolySword

pretre wrote:

destuctir wrote:ok fine its not like everyone doesnt do it but really i tohught they would be more serious and realistics even in htis type of game

You want serious and realism in a game about space elves, space knights and space demons?

hey thats not very nice besides fluff has no say in the rules

Fluff is often where the designers draw from to create rules.

ok it makes a good story but dont mkae him a worse model because it works with the fluff. even just making it a beat stick in close combat like it shut of its power to him is better than making the enemy better

Wait, so you want him to be more powerful? He's already pretty good, but you're saying the GK is underpowered because he has that weapons instead of a Power Weapon?

That's a new one.

ok thats a good point

another good point but in the sentence i meant was more if the fluff says something it doesnt mean it is a rule like say in draigo's fluff it said all nurgle followers fell before him you cant then say that the plague marines your chaos friend is using cant come on until he dies becasue the fluff said so. i meant fluff isnt rules

no no no no no i amnt saying grey knights are underpowered (i wont lie they have more cheese then the swiss) i am just saying i dont like the fact his sword make the enemy better even if it had the same back ground but did nothing in game and just counted as a close combat weapon (which he only has 1 of so no bonus attack) and he had like a 15 point bump up i would be happy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

McNinja wrote:You know, just give him a CCW. Some ancient sword, passed down through the generations of Purifiers, of unknown make, yet not daemonic. Don't put BS daemon gak in there, put tradition, put honor, put something that makes sense.

You're missing the point. The Blade is there, like many before it in literature, to show the conflict between good and evil. A weapon for good that it ultimately evil and is only safe in the hands of the hero is a time-tested formula.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnholyHolySword

ok how about this

the blade of -insert long winded name i can never remember here- was discovered in the openeing of the 41st milennia when it smashed from the warp into the realm of the mortals. its exiting of the eye of terror went far from unnoiticed as a massive wave of pure evil resinated out from the spot as it pierced the real world. xenos and humans alike swarmed to the area to find what had done such a thing. orks for the kicks. tau and eldar to destroy it. dark eldar to torture stuff woth it. and the iquisitor to unveil its secrets. when humanoty found it they tried to destroy it but the blade took everthing. it is said they enlisted the aid of a warlord class titan at one point but even its weapons, capable of leveling hives in moments. didnt even dull its unnatural shine. daemons contantly attacked no matter were it went to the point that it had to be under contant guard. less they wanted the chaos to control its powers again. it was locked in a vault but it whispered dark truths to the guards and no less than twelve times were the guards executed after trying to escape with it. it was handed to the order of purifiers since they were the only hope of holding to its lies. they in turn handed it to there greatest. catellan crowe. when the blade discovered its bearer would not break it halted its powers.no longer did it show of how devestating it could be to lure the knights to its side. it mearly sang out for people to come and take it for themsleves

the blade of -insert long winded name i can never remember here- is a close combat weapon but you can never claim a bonus attack for having multiple close combat weapons

see how hard was that still an epic battle against good and evil but doesnt put your enemy on steroids

this is all besides the point the rules and the rules and we cant change that. his sword sucks but he doesnt. the end

True, but it doesn't read like that. It reads like someone shove the cliche in there simply for the sake of having it in there. Like Draigo killing Mortarion, this is one of those things that needed A) a better writer and B) more than a few lines about how righteous of a dude Crowe is. In the space given, there is simply not enough room to convey how evil the blade is and how pure Crowe is. It's just "yeah, this thing's evil. Really evil." and "Crowe? Yeah, he's good. Really good."

Besides, it's a daemon weapon. How hard would it have been to throw it into the Eye of Terror or shoot it at a planet about to be eaten by Tyranids? Or better yet, go to the edge of the galaxy, and shoot it into the void.

EDIT: It occurred to me how little I care. As with the fluff in this book, a lot of it is mooked up. In the hands of a better writer, it (Crowe's fluff) would have been ok. As it stands, Crowe's fluff is the only bad thing about him, and it really isn't even that bad, just bit contrived. As I said earlier, Crowe needs no changes, and is still a great Special Character despite is adequate fluff.

McNinja wrote:Besides, it's a daemon weapon. How hard would it have been to throw it into the Eye of Terror or shoot it at a planet about to be eaten by Tyranids? Or better yet, go to the edge of the galaxy, and shoot it into the void.

You've obviously never read any fantasy or sci-fi. When dealing with cursed weapons / powerful artifacts, you always have to be creative in how you deal with them.

Keep in mind that the amount of space for each entry in a codex is limited; it isn't like they can write a novel for each entry.

Does it irk anyone else when someone says 'intensive purposes'? Not only do they not know what the saying really means, they don't even know the correct words.

Intents and purposes.

For all intents and purposes...

It's on the level of someone saying 'irregardless' or 'supposibly'.

Sorry getting off now.

Worms

pretre wrote:

McNinja wrote:Besides, it's a daemon weapon. How hard would it have been to throw it into the Eye of Terror or shoot it at a planet about to be eaten by Tyranids? Or better yet, go to the edge of the galaxy, and shoot it into the void.

You've obviously never read any fantasy or sci-fi. When dealing with cursed weapons / powerful artifacts, you always have to be creative in how you deal with them.

Keep in mind that the amount of space for each entry in a codex is limited; it isn't like they can write a novel for each entry.

I know. But Ward has a habit of not exanding upon what should be expanded upon. Draigo killing mortarion should've been a whole page. But hey.

Creative solutions, eh? How about strapping a null rod to the blade, encasing it in ceramite a foot thick, putting that in Adamantium, then sticking that in a room surrounded by null rods. Where only Crowe and Draigo are allowed in.