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McNinja wrote:

pretre wrote:

McNinja wrote:Besides, it's a daemon weapon. How hard would it have been to throw it into the Eye of Terror or shoot it at a planet about to be eaten by Tyranids? Or better yet, go to the edge of the galaxy, and shoot it into the void.

You've obviously never read any fantasy or sci-fi. When dealing with cursed weapons / powerful artifacts, you always have to be creative in how you deal with them.

Keep in mind that the amount of space for each entry in a codex is limited; it isn't like they can write a novel for each entry.

I know. But Ward has a habit of not exanding upon what should be expanded upon. Draigo killing mortarion should've been a whole page. But hey.

Creative solutions, eh? How about strapping a null rod to the blade, encasing it in ceramite a foot thick, putting that in Adamantium, then sticking that in a room surrounded by null rods. Where only Crowe and Draigo are allowed in.

it would whisper to people to free it no matter how far they are its whispers find everyone remember?

McNinja wrote:Creative solutions, eh? How about strapping a null rod to the blade, encasing it in ceramite a foot thick, putting that in Adamantium, then sticking that in a room surrounded by null rods. Where only Crowe and Draigo are allowed in.

Ahh, that's much better writing than just giving it to the hero. :(

destuctir wrote:

McNinja wrote:

pretre wrote:

McNinja wrote:Besides, it's a daemon weapon. How hard would it have been to throw it into the Eye of Terror or shoot it at a planet about to be eaten by Tyranids? Or better yet, go to the edge of the galaxy, and shoot it into the void.

You've obviously never read any fantasy or sci-fi. When dealing with cursed weapons / powerful artifacts, you always have to be creative in how you deal with them.

Keep in mind that the amount of space for each entry in a codex is limited; it isn't like they can write a novel for each entry.

I know. But Ward has a habit of not exanding upon what should be expanded upon. Draigo killing mortarion should've been a whole page. But hey.

Creative solutions, eh? How about strapping a null rod to the blade, encasing it in ceramite a foot thick, putting that in Adamantium, then sticking that in a room surrounded by null rods. Where only Crowe and Draigo are allowed in.

it would whisper to people to free it no matter how far they are its whispers find everyone remember?

nope. Null rods. I don't care how daemonic the weapon is, it's still a psychic presence within a blade, which the Null rods would nullify, or at least surpress. Putting one right next to it would weaken the presence, then stick that in a room full of them would do far more.

Ahh, but I would argue that that is needlessly overdoing it since one null rod would do the job. Mcninja's codex fluff is full of inaccuracies and waste!

pretre wrote:

McNinja wrote:You know, just give him a CCW. Some ancient sword, passed down through the generations of Purifiers, of unknown make, yet not daemonic. Don't put BS daemon gak in there, put tradition, put honor, put something that makes sense.

You're missing the point. The Blade is there, like many before it in literature, to show the conflict between good and evil. A weapon for good that it ultimately evil and is only safe in the hands of the hero is a time-tested formula.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnholyHolySword

Ok, first of all that blade is not showing the conflict between good and evil. It's just the Grey Knights using a weapon that they should be sworn not to use, since it's made be and inhabited by the things they're meant to be destroying. If it was about the conflict between good and evil, it would be actively trying to kill Crowe. Secondly, the Grey Knights are meant to be incorruptible. If they were, that sword would be in a vault on Titan being guarded by Purifiers. Using the weapons of Chaos is giving into one of its temptations. Mightn't be a big temptation, but these things start small.

pretre wrote:Ahh, but I would argue that that is needlessly overdoing it since one null rod would do the job. Mcninja's codex fluff is full of inaccuracies and waste!

Insurance. The rods don't have an infinite power supply, so the one inside would eventually fail. I'd be on a sort of pedastal, surrounded by a ring of ten or so Null Rods. When one fails, there are many others to back it up, so you could change it's battery or whatever and not hear some tard whispering to you.

However, if I were to play gk, I might keep the blade of antwyr's disadvantage. Just say Crowe is a master at pissing his enemies off.

destuctir wrote: so want to fix what makes this guy arguable the worst guy in the game

Not arguable at all.
Kheradruakh, the decapitator. Worst Character in the game.

Crowe is good, crazy good. Lots of people take him he is so good.


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destuctir wrote:ow i thought the rule was when in combat the enemy always counts as being in furious charge

in that case he isnt to bad

at another 50 points he would be 200 which seems like a large amount so i amnt going to rip my lis t up to find the points ow well

thanks for atleast helping me see he isnt THAT bad

then perhaps take away his force orginization mod that makes purifiers troops and let him use his daemon weapon instead. Points remain the same.

Points might actually increase, actually. It says it took 8 brotherhoods of GK to stop it, so Crowe would probably end up with Swarmlord stats if he used it. Actually, why do I get the feeling that the sword would basically turn anyone who wields it into Skarbrand?

Exergy wrote:

destuctir wrote: so want to fix what makes this guy arguable the worst guy in the game

Not arguable at all.
Kheradruakh, the decapitator. Worst Character in the game.

The Space Pope calls your bet and raises infinity.

As much as he gets bad press I actually like Crowe, but then I am a bit of a sucker for the fluff rich, game play poor characters, Inq Valeria is one of my fav's too. I like the whole fataly flawed elite warrior thing.

Not sure that Null Rods are you best protection are they? They absorb Psychic Powers but don't have any effect on Daemons do they?

I'd be sticking it in Valeria's Hyperstone Maze (oo-er) and having it "trapped forever."

I like the idea of Crowe being able to draw on the power of the Blade in desperation but it would need to have some pretty full on effects, maybe he has to pass a Ld test at the start of every phase and if he fails your opponent gets to control him for the rest of the game.

He should be able to call upon a demonic orbital bombardment with his sword once per game.

McNinja wrote:Points might actually increase, actually. It says it took 8 brotherhoods of GK to stop it, so Crowe would probably end up with Swarmlord stats if he used it. Actually, why do I get the feeling that the sword would basically turn anyone who wields it into Skarbrand?

Funnily enough, that could be exactly what would happen. If he was to use the sword as a daemon weapon, he'd be ignoring one of the key parts of being a Grey Knight, and could loose his incorruptibility as a result, just getting possessed by the sword he tried to use.

It's pretty heavy hubris to assume that you can overcome powers and temptations that warped even the emperors former sons, especially the one that was just as obsessed with being perfect as the grey knights seem to be.

Then again, one story is written to have a very typical conflict and fall from grace roll out of it. The other is just to show how super bad ass a bunch of guys are and doesn't really need any conflict at all. I guess I like to take the Kirby route on these guys and read into them that they are a lot more misguided than they believe, but that's me putting some spin on the writing.

Anyway, to keep with the existing "nothing we can't overcome and ultimate super bad assess" theme, I say give him the ability to strike with his weapon at some ridiculous profile for one phase, one turn, to symbolize the great need for such an attack/sacrifice and then have him take some wounds to symbolize the great mental anguish and personal struggle dudester went through for having done something unthinkable or whatnot

say: Strikes at I10 STR 6 No armor or invulnerable saves,+d6 penetration rollz then suffers d3 wounds! Because he might even need to sit the rest of this one out to think about things and find himself or whatnot. Maybe he'll move to brooklyn or finally put a ring on janet's finger.

Durza wrote:

McNinja wrote:Points might actually increase, actually. It says it took 8 brotherhoods of GK to stop it, so Crowe would probably end up with Swarmlord stats if he used it. Actually, why do I get the feeling that the sword would basically turn anyone who wields it into Skarbrand?

Funnily enough, that could be exactly what would happen. If he was to use the sword as a daemon weapon, he'd be ignoring one of the key parts of being a Grey Knight, and could loose his incorruptibility as a result, just getting possessed by the sword he tried to use.

This^ Crowe, being one of the most incorruptible beings to walk the galaxy/universe, has to constantly pay attention to keep the blade under control. Putting it in any vault with anything would not work, they actually need one of the holiest warriors in the galaxy to subliminally beat the daemon down 24/7. Crowe knows that it would be hard enough if he stopped he pressure mentally on the blade, it would be impossible to master it. This is the reason why Crowe has the blade, to stop it from influencing others.

Lord Magnus wrote:

Durza wrote:

McNinja wrote:Points might actually increase, actually. It says it took 8 brotherhoods of GK to stop it, so Crowe would probably end up with Swarmlord stats if he used it. Actually, why do I get the feeling that the sword would basically turn anyone who wields it into Skarbrand?

Funnily enough, that could be exactly what would happen. If he was to use the sword as a daemon weapon, he'd be ignoring one of the key parts of being a Grey Knight, and could loose his incorruptibility as a result, just getting possessed by the sword he tried to use.

This^ Crowe, being one of the most incorruptible beings to walk the galaxy/universe, has to constantly pay attention to keep the blade under control. Putting it in any vault with anything would not work, they actually need one of the holiest warriors in the galaxy to subliminally beat the daemon down 24/7. Crowe knows that it would be hard enough if he stopped the pressure mentally on the blade, it would be impossible to master it. This is the reason why Crowe has the blade, to stop it from influencing others.

Crowe has the blade because A) the GK don't think outside the box and B) Ward can't keep his fluff straight (are the incorruptible or not?). I very highly doubt that they considered putting Null Rods in and around the vault. Consider the following:

-Make a box with the properties of a Null Rod. A "Null Box" if you will.
-Put it in a room. Make the room a much larger "Null Box." Call this a "Null Room."
-Make sure it's guards/attendants are all equipped with Null Rods and Psychic Hoods.

Bam. Done. Blade is away and Crowe can be awesome and wield another weapon. Honestly, just do this and give Crowe a CCW, make him an upgrade character (must be deployed with a unit of Purifiers), and make him 165 points.

EDIT: There was a story on 1d4chan about the Knights Inductor (or Reasonable Marines, if you are familiar with the term). They constructed a room that completely nullified/suppressed any psychic force/powers the entered the room. The Inquisitor who when to investigate the Knights Inductor's home planet was nearly knocked unconscious by this, and she had a migraine while she was in the room. It was so powerful and effective that any daemons that were in there (and there was a daemonette in there) had their connection to the warp severed and their own personality brought out. Do the same thing.

There's one thing I don't get in all of this. Not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. That means that for all intents and purposes, every Grey Knight is completely incorruptible until proven otherwise. So how is it possible to measure who is the 'most' incorruptible (excessive hyperbole, woot)?

Surely in order to do it, you'd have to find each and every member's breaking point. But if they even possess a breaking point, that means they're not incorruptible. Essentially, I'm just doing an awfully long nitpick about a poor word choice.

No, it's not that. It's just excessive hyperbole to make Crowe sound cooler.

Excessive hyperbole which explodes into a bloody mess under the mildest of scrutiny and can only be defended by claiming that 'incorruptibility' was actually meant to be a totally different word? I see. Would a proof reader really be so hard to find?

(HINT: I'll do it for free if I never have to read that kind of gak again.)

No GK's have fallen to Chaos but that doesn't mean they are incorruptible. They are very strong but not necessarily invulnerable.

One car can have better brakes than another but you don't need to crash into a wall to prove it.

It is only the Purifiers that are "considered utterly incorruptible" Crowe is their Champion and Order master so he is the obvious candidate to carry the Blade.

So to my mind the head of the excessive hyperbole is quite intact and incorruptibility is pretty much spot on.

Scientifically, the Order master would be the worst choice to give that blade to. Any kind of position of authority makes the person more susceptible to lying, hypocrisy and lack of guilt. All things a daemon would find very useful.

And testing the brakes on a car isn't the same as testing Grey Knights. With the car you just have to measure how far it travels after braking at a certain speed. But there's no such way to test it for Grey Knights, because the maximum speed of their corruption should be zero. If it goes above that, the person isn't a Grey Knight, since the codex states repeatedly that they are all incorruptible.

Considering.its.an.ultimate Daemon Weapon here is what I would do.

Counts as a Daemonblade, but has all powers.activated at once, permanently. Makes him Mastery Lvl 3. +1 for the Daemonblade power, and +1 for not using his power to battle the blade.
However, every player turn he must pass.a.Ld.test on 4D6 discarding the 2 lowest. If he fails one of the following happens. You pick.

At a total cost of 250Pts he dies.
At 220pts he gets corrupted and becomes your opponent's model.immediately. He may not.be attacked.untill he shoots at.or assault one of your units as the GK are not aware of his change yet.

At 190pts his corruption drives the universe crazy. GK auto lose.

Umm... Yeah. Maybe as a fun game, but that's kind of a pain to administer and no one would buy him. 4d6, drop the lowest means you pretty much explode turn 1.

There are a couple instances that makes you question whether or not GK are really as incorruptible as Ward wants you to believe. If they were truly incorruptible, there would be no need to have Crowe wield this sword. As it stands, Sister of Battle seem to be the only army that is actually truly incorruptible.

McNinja wrote:There are a couple instances that makes you question whether or not GK are really as incorruptible as Ward wants you to believe.

Snuh?

As the author of the codex, he wrote all that stuff you pointed out. The codex makes it clear they are not absolutely incorruptible, just that none have fallen yet (and hopefully never will).


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McNinja wrote: As it stands, Sister of Battle seem to be the only army that is actually truly incorruptible.

You mean except for that time they went rogue against the Imperium before backtracking like a Karma Houdini?

McNinja wrote: As it stands, Sister of Battle seem to be the only army that is actually truly incorruptible.

You mean except for that time they went rogue against the Imperium before backtracking like a Karma Houdini?

Not to go off topic, but what are you talking about?

Or Bloodtide where they were corrupted.

Deadshot wrote:Or Bloodtide where they were corrupted.

As has been brought up everytime this comes up, the Bloodtide was PHYSICAL corruption. No one is immune to physical corruption, including SOB and GK. Immune to temptation and corruption of the soul is a wholly different thing.

Fair enough.

pretre wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Or Bloodtide where they were corrupted.

As has been brought up everytime this comes up, the Bloodtide was PHYSICAL corruption. No one is immune to physical corruption, including SOB and GK. Immune to temptation and corruption of the soul is a wholly different thing.

Not only is there zero indication of any sort of physical corruption, but it still does not excuse the GK slaughtering the pure and innocent SoB. There is nothing indicating that the SoB blood was needed, as the SoB rely on faith, which is not something that resides in blood. It's funny how the GK would be the single best Khorne force in the universe if they weren't so "for the emperor." I mean, killing SoB, slaughtering damn near a sector just to keep themselves a secret...

IIRC it did say pure blood was needed. SoB are more expendable than GK and have pure blood.