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I'm a recent Empire player who recently built and painted a 2200pt Empire army with the old book. I did fairly well with it at the local GT. I was eagerly anticipating the new book which came out this weekend, though as I read rumour after rumour my dread grew as it seemed the army got nerfed across the board.

After reading the book, my opinion has changed somewhat. Not because I don't think the book was nerfed, but more so because I think the nerfs make the army generally more in line with 8th edition and better for the game overall.

This is mainly a counter reply to Zeekill's post. Let's be honest, the previous Empire book had some overpowered things.

1) Warrior Priest making automatically making dispel dice. I abused this and with the Rod of Power, I very often had more dispel dice than my opponent had power dice. Not very fun for my opponent and not in line with the idea that the magic phase should mean something. Sure, Warrior Priests were kinda expensive for their stat line but every competitive Empire player took 2-3, so clearly they felt they were well worth the cost. Now at a significant discount and with better battle prayers, I'd say they are still quite good and you'll still see a few on the table. Hatred is till nothing to sniff at, especially since you pass it down to your detachments (along with the prayers.)

2) Mortars. Ridiculously cheap in the old book, and way too punishing for infantry (the focus of 8th.) Did they need to be double nerfed with the Strength drop and price hike? I feel it was little too much, but again, if you want to encourage players to take deep steadfast units or Hordes, you can't make something like a Mortar an auto-include in your army (as it was in the old book.) I predict that my two will probably end up on the shelf, but I am willing to see how they perform in a few games before I retire them.

3) Magic items generally got weaker, but so did most items in every 8th ed book. Steel Standard was significantly buffed, and you'll probably see it on a unit of Inner Circle knights with Great Weapons or a unit of Demigryphs. Ring of Volans is interesting and I'll be looking at the signature spells closely to see which one I can get the most utility out of. Even having two bound Fire Balls (with the Ruby Ring) isn't too bad with the new ethereal units from the VC book running around (plus the standard HPAs and Hydras.)

I know there's been some griping about the Armour of Meteoric Iron but honestly it's quite fair in 8th. The rulebook has a 2+ armour for 45pts, you're getting quite a deal for the extra 5pts. Would I actually use it? Probably not - most of my Heroes can take Full Plate and shield which is quite amazing for the points, but for characters who don't have access to full plate (Arch Lectors mainly,) I would consider it.

Yes, there's magic armour our there that blows the new AoMI out of the water. But those items were written and balanced in a different time. If you want the game balance to move forward and restructure from the ground up, you have to accept this nerf as a good one.

4) Wizard Altars are quite good for their points, at a little over 100pts per model. Quite durable, with very useful bound spells. They also count as chariots, so they can defend themselves quite fine, thank you. No barding either means that they can keep up with an advancing battle line. The Celestial Hurricanum seems quite amazing to me as it provides an automatic +1 aura to every unit within 6". Combine that with Hatred, and I think you've got a great support unit for fighty lists.

5) The Stank was a little too bipolar in the old book - pretty much invincible unless you had Pit of Shades/Purple Sun/ and maybe artillery. Sneak 2-3 wounds in, though, and it pretty much fell apart (unless you have life magic.) Now it's easier to kill but still very tough to most things. But the best part speaking as an Empire player is that it's way more reliable! Even if it drops to 4-5 wounds, it has a decent chance of doing something, even if it misfires! Combine that with the fact it has Random Movement now and thus can charge 360, means I can't wait to try it out ASAP.

6) 1pt increase across most of the board. This is the only nerf I'm still scratching my head over. If GW really didn't' care at all about game balance, they would have stayed the same (or maybe even decreased in points!) I though the Empire soldiers were "good" for their points in the old book. Now, I think they are "ok" for their points. I have a 50 man horde block of Halberdiers with a Warrior Priest who sound awesome on paper but were pretty underwhelming in actual game play. Now they are even more expensive (though the Warrior Priest did take a price drop.) I'm going to have to play some games before I can make a better judgement call.

Most of the other basic units in the other 8th books took a price drop, but then again they were generally considered to be pretty crappy anyway (Ogres, Skeletons...etc) in 7th and needed a buff. Of note, the basic Orc Boy went up a point, so in that light the Empire soldiers seem fair. Again, only time will tell for me.

7) Fairly big nerf to Flagellants. 20% more expensive, can lose their Frenzy, worse/very random martyrdom rules. At the end of the day, they're probably just making sure you pay a premium for an Unbreakable unit with no regiment cap. Add to the fact that in this edition you can buff them huge with lore of Life and Light, plus the Celestial Hurricanum, and you have another unit that used to be a common auto-include changing to something that has a specific role.

Anyway, I hope you found this insightful. Again, as a fan of Warhammer 8th, I think most of the new changes are for the better of the game as a whole. There's a reason why I chose Empire for the recent GT I went to - I thought the army was pretty busted under the old rules. I think Cruddance had a tough job balancing it for 8th, but overall I think he did a pretty good job. Good gaming!

*likes this reviuw*

Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

Finally, a comprehensive post about the Empire that does not consist solely of WHINE WHINE! MY ARMY IS USELESS! NOW I HAVE TO CHANGE MY TACTICS!

Let us know when you get a couple of games in.


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Johnny-Crass wrote:Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

1: So do most things.

3: Its GW. This was expected.

As for the other 3 points...I got nothing.

Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Niiai wrote:*likes this reviuw*

agreed...

Johnny-Crass wrote:Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Well, I guess that's why it got nerfed then. A bit unfair on the other races, now wasn't it?

Johnny-Crass wrote:Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Only since the FAQ, clearly whoever made that decision - and I remember much astonishment at the time - has been over ruled

Personally, I'm rather glad there was some nerfing. All the times I played Empire, I was pounded off the table by cannons, mortars, and the like. And, let me tell you, it was awful for a Dwarf Army to be out-gunned by the Empire, not to mention the tank... Ugh...

It is not like the steam tank is the only big thing that has a problem with cannons. If you unclude it and meet a cannon then just hide it behind another unit.

As for mortals being nerfed, it really hurts that a unit one has becomes unplayable. However, I rather want to screw some players over to make a better game system. Balancing something like warhammer is hard from a game design point of viuw. I would like to say it is imposible. But they are doing a very good job. There are mistaces. If you want to play a good balanced game one should play starcraft 1 on the computer, but I find warhammer has so mutch more to offer including the comunaty, the models, the painting and the funn.

I ran tomb kings once and ran into emier mortals and all my skeletons disapeared. I do not even want to imadgine what would happen if I played an army like wood elfs or high elfs, the losses would be catastrophic. And with 8th edition demanding big blocks and busses for steadfast I am glad to se the mortal getting nerfed.

With that being sead I would advice Johnny-Crass to trying playing with mortals. Just because they got worse does not mean that they got bad. They might still be playable.

I just hope some of the weard rules of empier disapears. Last time I played they stole my spells, my stats and nuked my warriors. I was quite baffeled by the experience.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Well, I guess that's why it got nerfed then. A bit unfair on the other races, now wasn't it?

Almost every army in the game can take Death Shadow or Cracks Call....

You can not hide a Stank behind anything but Demigryphs sadly as it will just bounce through.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Well, I guess that's why it got nerfed then. A bit unfair on the other races, now wasn't it?

Almost every army in the game can take Death Shadow or Cracks Call....

You can not hide a Stank behind anything but Demigryphs sadly as it will just bounce through.

Aren't Stanks now immune to Purple Sun and Pit of Shadows? That's what I heard.

I dont think so and now they are squishy so it really does not matter.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Yes but the whole point of the Steamtank was something that could laugh off cannons!

Well, I guess that's why it got nerfed then. A bit unfair on the other races, now wasn't it?

Almost every army in the game can take Death Shadow or Cracks Call....

You can not hide a Stank behind anything but Demigryphs sadly as it will just bounce through.

Aren't Stanks now immune to Purple Sun and Pit of Shadows? That's what I heard.

I think they test on the engineers ini now, which stops them being instakilled.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

1) Huge exaggeration. Keep in mind the Steam Tank can now charge 360 so you can advance it up with the long edge towards your opponent's cannons so that they are harder to hit. Even if he does hit, he will likely to only do 3-4 wounds. Still 6-7 to go. Even 2 Empire cannons at 240pts should only cause 7 wounds to a Steam Tank, and with Life magic you can heal it up still.

2) And they still do that job. Honestly, they were proabably too cheap at 10pts. 10pts for Unbreakable, Flails, crazy martyrdom rules, and usually counted as a Core choice? Pretty much an auto include. 12pts and slight nerfs - well, now you simply have to think about it.

3) Maybe.

4) Weak? You mean...at bare minimum average? And honestly, I'd say better due to access to all Lores of Magic? Except...you'll proabably be channeling around 3-4 times, when your opponent channels once or twice? I would say it's weak compared to High Elves and Lizardmen, maybe, the kings of magic. But no, I'd say the Empire magic is at worst average and realistically above average (keep in mind the Wizard Altars also make 1 PD or DD.)

5) War Alter was stupidly under priced in the old book, though. 100pts, and it gave the Arch Lector a 4+ ward. A 4+ ward alone costs 45pts, so it was essentially a chariot that made you Unbreakable and had access to the entire lore of Light for 55pts. Now it's fair - but has lots of aura benefits that I feel are far more appropriate.

The Empire cannon is dead to me, I know think of cannons only as Iron Blasters and Dwarf Cannons and trsut me those wont miss.

Niiai wrote:*likes this reviuw*

I agree

Thanks for conceding the other 4 points I made, Johnny.

Nah I stick to my guns on those. I just find it pointless to argue when it is clear that I am right

Johnny-Crass wrote:
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money

Conversions are your only hope. With some stuff from any WW2/Napoleonic plastic kit you can make decent rocket/organ/cannon. Two of them in a chariot with a lot of lightning memorabilia and you have a Nuln-themed hurricanum or war altar, or lots of plate and use them on a steam tank conversion. Even as a filler for some state troops making a desperate last stand in front of a damaged mortar.

As long as I can convert I'm not buying new (exception being the demigryphs, I'm already painting a first unit of 3).

Zoned wrote:1) Warrior Priest making automatically making dispel dice. I abused this and with the Rod of Power, I very often had more dispel dice than my opponent had power dice.

The ROP was a great shifting element - it allowed you to sacrifice your own magic phase to take out your opponents. Now you don't have that option. As for WP: you're correct - they were expensive for what they did, but people thought they were worth it. I don't see the problem.

Zoned wrote:2) Mortars. Ridiculously cheap in the old book, and way too punishing for infantry

You're right on here - Either S2 or 100 points would have balanced the Mortar. Both is punishing, and will result in them being shelved.

Zoned wrote:3) Magic items generally got weaker, but so did most items in every 8th ed book.

Magic items were most of what made Empire unique (they didn't raise the dead, or have ASF, giant monsters, runes, etc). There's still some of that left, but the selection of magic items to be kept is baffling.

Zoned wrote:4) Wizard Altars are quite good for their points

Ugh. No, they're not. They're fire magnets with a 5+ armor save.

Zoned wrote:5) The Stank was a little too bipolar in the old book - pretty much invincible unless you had Pit of Shades/Purple Sun/ and maybe artillery. Sneak 2-3 wounds in, though, and it pretty much fell apart (unless you have life magic.)

It will still fall apart after it suffers 2-3 wounds. One wound and it's misfiring 1/3 of the time. Three wounds and it's misfiring half the time. Now that it's toughness has dropped significantly that is much more likely.

I'll agree that the addition of random movement makes it much more powerful.

Zoned wrote:6) 1pt increase across most of the board. This is the only nerf I'm still scratching my head over. If GW really didn't' care at all about game balance, they would have stayed the same (or maybe even decreased in points!)

I assume you meant "if GW really did care about game balance..." Empire troops were fairly priced in the previous edition, now they're overpriced.

Zoned wrote:7) Fairly big nerf to Flagellants.

Agreed. A nerf wasn't unwarranted, but, like the mortar, this one went too far.

Realistically, this Empire book is about getting people to buy Demigryphs and Wizard Wagons, so they had to make them attractive options. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised GW didn't add new core troops (e.g. Pikemen) or artillery (e.g. light cannon).

I have decided to migrate to this thread as the overt doom mongering has put me off of the other one. I like the new book, I want the planetarium bits and love the chocobos (which #i really didnt think would happen). its a nice balanced book within the 8th ed books, and 6 dicing the light wagon to snipe monsters and characters on their own as it cannot miscast is pretty nasty.

Ugh. No, they're not. They're fire magnets with a 5+ armor save.

And they're also far cheaper than the monsters most people get.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

1. It takes a cannon shot better than any "other" monster. And is still ranged.
2. You can easily tarpit with spearmen. Not as well as Gnoblar/Goblins/Zombies, but they also last longer and aren't as easy to wipe out via spells or even combat.
3. Lol. So basically you're saying you knew you were buying an OP item. 3 of them, in fact. And now people should have sympathy because it's a waste of money? How about all the people along the way you knew you were uber cheesing? Did you give them refunds on their time or have sympathy for them?
4. Empire has a standard magic phase. The Hurricanum and channeling WP and access to all the lores makes them better than merely average. Of the new books, OnG have a weak magic phase. Probably followed by Ogres. Then Empire.
5. The old war altar was silly. Even trying to say it was remotely balanced is nonsense. It does more and more appropriately now, but most importantly, it's costed correctly.

The Helblaster seems very very good for it's points value.

The Wizard Wagons are fairly cheap. They don't have the best saves, but the Luminark does give a 6+ ward save to nearby units.

Demigryph Knights seem really good.

I think the reason the Troops went up in price, is probably because you can can pretty much throw hatred and Cold blooded into everyone one of them.

The reliance on bound spells is interesting. Hard to say if that's going to be a positive or a negative.

As I said in another thread, the book really seems to be balanced with he other 8th edition books in mind, and is probably right where it needs to be in terms of balance.

I am one of those who are along the same lines as OP. The book feels pretty good. There are some things that got nerfed, but that's the trend this edition isn't it? If I may:

The armory feels really light. I seriously thought my book was missing a page or two. No where near as many options as the last one. I love my options. The speculum feels more fair, however, as it it now forced. My runefang is now cheaper, which means my poor general can now have some kind of gear besides just a cool blade (and correct me if Im wrong, but can an Arch Lector, or any other lord, now take the Runefang? Could be interesting)

My poor flagellants will now sit unused due to their points increase and not being able to make them core means they will be competing with my beloved cannons. The extra point in WS and BS (why?) is nice, but they are all but useless now.

I never used mortars, but I can see why people are so pissed about them. It almost felt spiteful...

My steam tank. So beloved that I bought two, and seeing as how that they are cheaper I can now take both in lower point games. I feel that they are more useful that before, seeing as how they wont become lumps of cover after taking 3 wounds. The loss of being able to to shoot the cannon while in combat is overshadowed by the improvements made to the rules. I hate random movement, but at least I have the chance of moving 6 inches from one steam point as opposed to 2. Over all, I think I love my little stank even more.

The alters are... interesting. I would have to play a test game or two with them before I committed to buying them.

Our magic phase has been greatly weakened, and a number of the wargears or abilities my units came with before have lost their resistance. A shame but it feels more in line considering we should dominate the shooting phase, not the shooting AND magic phase.

All in all, the book feels good. Has some fun new options that I cant wait to try out. I may have lost one or two of my favorite options, I still have plenty to play with. Should prove interesting.

This is mainly a counter reply to Zeekill's post.

You say this, and then immediately agree on nearly all of the points I made in my thread.

Anyway:
1) Agree for the most part, but Hatred on things that suck at combat in the first place does not help enough. Plus with our average Initiative value the WP will probably die before he can be of any real use. After all, he is only T4 W2.

2) Mortars are shelved 100%. I can honestly say don't even give them a chance.

3) Steel Standard gets you a better charge, whoop-dee-doo. Ring of Volans is still One-use, and still random, and still requires you to throw power dice at it, which makes it suck.
As for the AoMI, I say this again and again. Saying something else is bad does not make something good.

4) Calling these things durable is laughable. T5 with a 5+ save and towering above the rest of the army is not durable. They can't defend themselves at all because their crew dish out 2 attacks at S3. Sadly the Derpcanum will probably be in most lists anyway solely because there is no better use of our points.

5) Can't argue here, but the T6 is still a huge nerf with all the S5 and S6 in today's meta.

6) Our basic infantry sucks for the points, mainly because of their pathetic statline. And you can't argue "well, we get tons of buffs" because you are paying for those buffs. Here is an excerpt from something I said in the other thread:


7) Completely agree. Flagies Shelved.

You have made a very long and detailed thread already, zee. And that's fine. But you don't have to repost it in every other thread especially when it's clear people have sidestepped yours because of its tone and content.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

1. It takes a cannon shot better than any "other" monster. And is still ranged.
2. You can easily tarpit with spearmen. Not as well as Gnoblar/Goblins/Zombies, but they also last longer and aren't as easy to wipe out via spells or even combat.
3. Lol. So basically you're saying you knew you were buying an OP item. 3 of them, in fact. And now people should have sympathy because it's a waste of money? How about all the people along the way you knew you were uber cheesing? Did you give them refunds on their time or have sympathy for them?
4. Empire has a standard magic phase. The Hurricanum and channeling WP and access to all the lores makes them better than merely average. Of the new books, OnG have a weak magic phase. Probably followed by Ogres. Then Empire.
5. The old war altar was silly. Even trying to say it was remotely balanced is nonsense. It does more and more appropriately now, but most importantly, it's costed correctly.

Never said Walter was balanced, just said he was good
And yah I know I was cheesing hard, I only pulled out my Empire when someone needed to learn a lesson. I do not play soft games of warhammer, there is no point to that

DukeRustfield wrote:You have made a very long and detailed thread already, zee. And that's fine. But you don't have to repost it in every other thread especially when it's clear people have sidestepped yours because of its tone and content.

Well the OP made it quite clear that his post was in response to my thread, its only fair I am allowed to reply.

And the only "tone" my thread has is the other people calling me names, and one infraction that I have already apologized for. Other than that I have done nothing wrong. The rest is just like any other discussion.


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Johnny-Crass wrote: I do not play soft games of warhammer, there is no point to that

As a person with a similar attitude, I have to say I support this statement in its entirety. People like us get too much hate