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zeekill wrote:Well the OP made it quite clear that his post was in response to my thread, its only fair I am allowed to reply.

And the only "tone" my thread has is the other people calling me names, and one infraction that I have already apologized for. Other than that I have done nothing wrong. The rest is just like any other discussion.

Don't get your hopes up, the OP never said anything about you.

Why not take the hint?

Johnny-Crass wrote:And yah I know I was cheesing hard, I only pulled out my Empire when someone needed to learn a lesson. I do not play soft games of warhammer, there is no point to that

zeekill wrote:As a person with a similar attitude, I have to say I support this statement in its entirety. People like us get too much hate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4cs6M4vgIAU#t=218s (why isn't the youtube embedding working???)

I just want to clarify that I too am a supporter of actually playing the game to win and have no quarrel w/ WAAC players (I sometimes am one myself, or like in Johnny's case, sometimes you just gotta teach them a lesson!). I think it's almost a disservice to the game and your opponent if you don't try to win (even in a demo game!). But always keep in mind whats best for the actual prosperity of the hobby/game of Warhammer...

marielle wrote:

zeekill wrote:Well the OP made it quite clear that his post was in response to my thread, its only fair I am allowed to reply.

And the only "tone" my thread has is the other people calling me names, and one infraction that I have already apologized for. Other than that I have done nothing wrong. The rest is just like any other discussion.

Don't get your hopes up, the OP never said anything about you.

Why not take the hint?

OP wrote:
This is mainly a counter reply to Zeekill's post.

Read. 4th Line down.

And now we need to start another empire thread to sidestep this one too...... any volunteers?

Sirius42 wrote:And now we need to start another empire thread to sidestep this one too...... any volunteers?

Why? I'm only here to discuss empire. People keep being rude to me. Just ignore them and continue discussion.

Zeekill, I think the issue is that you are unwilling to accept that the book is not all negative, and come across quite angry about it.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on how empire stacks up against the other 8th ed books (as I feel that this style of book is how I feel they will all go and it is in my opinion going a long way to eliminating armybook creep as they all strike me as very balanced to eachother)

Sirius42 wrote:Zeekill, I think the issue is that you are unwilling to accept that the book is not all negative, and come across quite angry about it.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on how empire stacks up against the other 8th ed books (as I feel that this style of book is how I feel they will all go and it is in my opinion going a long way to eliminating armybook creep as they all strike me as very balanced to eachother)

My OP in the other thread was supposed to come off as an anecdote. My initial outrage has passed for the most part.

Its obviously not all negative, but I hold my opinion that the book is not powerful.

As for each army specifically, I don't particularly want to write a book right now, but if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them.

not asking for a book, just your opinions on how all the 8th ed books are competitiveness wise to each other. do you think they're all almost even or do you think there are obvious winners/losers? my opinion on the subject I have made very clear but I was wondering how others felt, especially empire players as they are now new kids on the block.

Sirius42 wrote:And now we need to start another empire thread to sidestep this one too...... any volunteers?

Not much point as I suspect the virus will reappear.

We could try ignoring it, and leave it to self replicate ad naseum


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I just want to clarify that I too am a supporter of actually playing the game to win and have no quarrel w/ WAAC players (I sometimes am one myself, or like in Johnny's case, sometimes you just gotta teach them a lesson!). I think it's almost a disservice to the game and your opponent if you don't try to win (even in a demo game!). But always keep in mind whats best for the actual prosperity of the hobby/game of Warhammer...

Surely you can't mean letting people experiment and have fun?

Instead of the encouraging toxic naysaying?

By jingo the internet will implode...

Sirius42 wrote:not asking for a book, just your opinions on how all the 8th ed books are competitiveness wise to each other. do you think they're all almost even or do you think there are obvious winners/losers? my opinion on the subject I have made very clear but I was wondering how others felt, especially empire players as they are now new kids on the block.

Well, in 40k everything is pretty straightforward for the most part, it works like a tier list. Things in higher tiers will almost always beat things in tiers below it (assuming competitive lists)

Fantasy works differently. When you look at competitive play, most things come down to hard counters, so there is no clear-cut best army.

For example, Ogres are one of the most powerful armies right now. Vampire counts are not as good as ogres against All-comers. However, because of ethereal spam, Vampires have a clear advantage against Ogre armies, who dont have the rank bonus or much access to magic attacks for all their units (depending on points value).

Dark Elf armies based on taking 4 large monsters and tons of dark riders are practically unstoppable because of their mobility and hitting power. But against dwarven warmachines (flaming, cant miss) they often lose.

When I look at empire, I see 4 things.

1) A lack of quality infantry. Their base state troop is on par with a clanrat, with less M and I, and much more expensive. They have nothing on par with Savage Orcs or Lizardmen. Therefore you need to buff the units in order to make them effective.
2) Empire's source of buffs comes from bound spells, which are unreliable and will often be stopped. Also, they have no way to fuel their magic phase other than +1 PD, which is not very impressive.
3) Empire have no cheap re-directors, something on par with Goblin Wolf Cavalry, Sabertusks, Warhounds, Harpies, etc.
4) Warrior Priests have very little survivability. T4 without Full Plate and 2 Wounds makes me sad for a character that we need to hold our battle line together.


No thanks !

Ogres are one of the most powerful armies right now.

..Really? I've heard tons of things about ogre, we're at best mid tier, maybe the upper echelons of it, but most powerful? As in the WoC/DoC/Skaven/DE most powerful tier?

I see your points on VC and ogres but dark elves aren't an 8th ed army. I'm actually a VC player and don't go for ethereal spam, not my bag. I run a powerhouse lort, some GG, Ghouls, zobs, necros and a unit of hexwraiths (2k). on your point of redirectors, due to mobility being a prerequisite direwolves don't cut it, all the rest are quite pricey, and if you look at state troops compared to skeletons i'd say theyre spot on (again skaven arent an 8th ed book), and greatswords against grave guard seem about right,

vc buffs are non bound innate, i'd take bound innate any day (no miscast, no killing my general)

And warrior priests strike me as a good place to throw a dice once your opponent has none left or to make them burn DD, the generating free dispel dice they had last edition was just mental, if i recall they got cheaper too?

back to the base state troop, you got better basic ld and depending on type either a halberd or ws4? which is pretty good, and the passing abilities to other detachments is also boss (imagine if plague monks could throw frenzy to stormvermin or clanrats)?, you have to accept that a points value has been placed on this skill, whether you see it as a worthwhile skill or not.

its like my army pays for fear, how much would one be without it? 1pt, 1.5pts?, with bsbs and high ld characters all over the place while you are paying for fear its not often used.

I hope you see my point here, that you get nothing for free, even if you don't like what you got.




and at everybody comparing empire to any book that isnt hardback, these new books are the new way, and while theyre not there yet all books will be like this eventually so a fairer comparison of new books is to go with how they tally against orcs, vc, tk, ok and now empire.

Sirius42 wrote:I see your points on VC and ogres but dark elves aren't an 8th ed army. I'm actually a VC player and don't go for ethereal spam, not my bag. I run a powerhouse lort, some GG, Ghouls, zobs, necros and a unit of hexwraiths (2k). on your point of redirectors, due to mobility being a prerequisite direwolves don't cut it, all the rest are quite pricey, and if you look at state troops compared to skeletons i'd say theyre spot on (again skaven arent an 8th ed book), and greatswords against grave guard seem about right,

I was just using the DE as an example of hard cover.
As for the Skeletons, not by a long shot. Skeletons are unbreakable and can be raised back. IMO that makes them way better.

Sirius42 wrote:
vc buffs are non bound innate, i'd take bound innate any day (no miscast, no killing my general)

Also no +6 to cast (including the tome). You only ever need to throw 2 dice for VC. Take the earthing rod and you're fine. I would rather have WP be Lvl 2-4 wizards and get the bonus to cast.

Sirius42 wrote:
And warrior priests strike me as a good place to throw a dice once your opponent has none left or to make them burn DD, the generating free dispel dice they had last edition was just mental, if i recall they got cheaper too?

Yes, but you NEED those buffs to even hope to stand up in combat to most enemies. It's not just "oh, let me draw out some dice and get 1 buff," most of the time you probably will need most of the buffs to go off successfully to do well.

Sirius42 wrote:
back to the base state troop, you got better basic ld and depending on type either a halberd or ws4? which is pretty good, and the passing abilities to other detachments is also boss (imagine if plague monks could throw frenzy to stormvermin or clanrats)?, you have to accept that a points value has been placed on this skill, whether you see it as a worthwhile skill or not.

Well first of all, Skaven have better Ld, as they have Ld 10. (7 General+3 Ranks)
If plague monks could throw frenzy to clanrats, no one would ever do that anyway because no one wants to take clan rats that don't count as core. Same thing for Greatswords/State Troops.

Sirius42 wrote:
its like my army pays for fear, how much would one be without it? 1pt, 1.5pts?, with bsbs and high ld characters all over the place while you are paying for fear its not often used.

You are not paying for fear. You are paying for unbreakable and the ability to be resurrected (and quite quickly resurrected too!) The fear on top of that is practically free.

Sirius42 wrote:
and at everybody comparing empire to any book that isnt hardback, these new books are the new way, and while theyre not there yet all books will be like this eventually so a fairer comparison of new books is to go with how they tally against orcs, vc, tk, ok and now empire.

Ok. Empire is:
weaker than Orcs and Ogres, as both will easily decimate them in combat.
weaker than VC, as Empire don't have the sustained damage to whittle down undead units, nor a good way of assassinating the vampire.
on par with TK, because TK are just as weak as Empire.
I guess this is IMO though.

To Zeekil:

WPs are equally durable (pretty much) as they were in the old army book. Except they are cheaper. Whatever you did to keep them alive then, you can do it now for less.

I tried my Mortars today and they were pretty poopy. Then again, I was playing vs VC and they had no real problem bringing back the handful of casualties I caused. Will wait to see how I do against non-Undead.

I actually misread the Ring of Volans and didn't notice that it's one use only, so you're right, it's pretty poop. Most of the remaining items are generally pretty fair for 8th ed.

How can you honestly think that the Wizard altars are fragile? T5 and 5 wounds lurking in the backfield means that normal missile fire is going to struggle to dent it. Artillery would hurt but I can easily fit a Stank, Demigryphs, and my own artillery in a list (along with a Wizard Altar,) so you're going to have to make some hard decisions as to what to cannon.

I honestly think the Stank got better overall. Significant price drop, 360 charge, no more instant death to initiative spells, have to roll to hit against it in close combat, true cannon stats barring range, breath weapon that can be used every turn you're in combat, and way more reliable once it's damaged.

What did you lose? T10 and more movement (12-15 inches on average vs 3D6.) All in all a good trade.

I thought Empire state troops were "good" for their points back in 7th. Now I think they are "ok." I don't quite get the 1pt increase yet. I don't think it puts them as the worst core point for point in the game.

One thing I do like is that detachments count for your min core now. I already had 50 Halberdiers and 15 Crossbows. Why not take the Crossbows as an detachment now so that they might get a free Stand and Shoot or get Flaming attacks from the Warrior Priest's Battle Prayers?

Or taking Greatswords and taking a pair of 15 man Stubborn Swordmen detachments to act as speed bumps? Only the most hard hitting units in the game will roll over them in one turn of combat.

My main point I was trying to get across was the following: I completely acknowledge that many things in the Empire book got nerfed, I even said so in the my original post. I simply understand that it most of the nerfs make the game as a whole better. The army might feel less competitive to the best armies in the game right now (I think it's too early to tell and most of us only have theory hammer to work with,) and you can probably find units/gear in 7th or 6th ed books that are similar in price or effect but better and/or cheaper.

I can honestly say that as a Warhammer Fantasy fan and as someone who is interested in greater internal balance, the Empire book is a step in the right direction.

I can also say that I think even with the nerfs there is still enough versatility and cool toys and tricks the Empire have to stay reasonably competitive. Only time will tell and I for one am willing to give them a fighting chance. Good gaming!

Zoned wrote:WPs are equally durable (pretty much) as they were in the old army book. Except they are cheaper. Whatever you did to keep them alive then, you can do it now for less.

I ran an Arch Lector on WA. I didn't need anything else because there was nothing that couldn't be handled after taking 3 turns of shooting from 3 Mortars, 2 Rocket Batteries, and The Withering from lore of shadow.
Now, they obviously want us to run combat blocks, and yet do nothing to improve the survivability of the model that holds our unit intact during combats.

Zoned wrote:
How can you honestly think that the Wizard altars are fragile? T5 and 5 wounds lurking in the backfield means that normal missile fire is going to struggle to dent it. Artillery would hurt but I can easily fit a Stank, Demigryphs, and my own artillery in a list (along with a Wizard Altar,) so you're going to have to make some hard decisions as to what to cannon.

Skinks and Gutter Runners > poison
DoC flamers > self explanatory
Any army with cannons will probably run 2 or more cannons. Turn 1-2 you make the stank useless, turn 2-3 you kill the Wizardmobile. You need at most 2 shots to hit unless you are unlucky.
Lots of armies can hurt that thing with magic.
Also, any army that has scouts/fast cavalry can tie that thing up in combat forever. If you flank it it gets 2 WS3 S3 attacks. In the front it gets 4 WS3 S3.

I think compared to other armys' support options it is pretty fragile.


The rest of what you said I have already commented on or agree with

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Ogres are one of the most powerful armies right now.

..Really? I've heard tons of things about ogre, we're at best mid tier, maybe the upper echelons of it, but most powerful? As in the WoC/DoC/Skaven/DE most powerful tier?

Unless you run special characters DOC is not top tier. Ogres on the other hand can reach that height with ease. But I am not going get into another competitive ogre debate.

Ok, well most Empire players who took multiple Warrior Priests just sucked it up and did what they could with heavy armour and shield. If he's in a Horde, you place him in the corner to minimize attakcs on him when getting charged or place him out of combat when charging.

If skinks get to your backfield unmolested, something's wrong. Gutter Runners and Chameleons can be kept at bay with bubble wrap units pushing them more than 12" away from your bubble wrap.

Flamers average 21 shots needing 5's to hit and 5's to wound. That's about 2 wounds and the single unit of Flamers cost nearly 100pts more than the Wizard Alter.

Having played my cannons a ton now I can tell you they're pretty accurate but not that accurate. Plenty of times it's bounced short, or I've rolled a 1 to wound. Plus don't forget my cannons are shooting back at his cannons - if he can so easily snipe my Stank turn 1, I should be able to snipe his cannons just as easily in my turn 1, no?

Scouts and Fast Cav can be a problem but that's why I have missile units or a Hellblaster.

Empire cannons are now the worst in the game. Dwarf and Ogre cannons are both more accurate...
Also, what is going to bubble wrap for you?

I'd agree with that statement. Empire Cannons are also cheaper than both (assuming you buy the Rune of Forging or an Engineer.)

Bubblewrap - I have a 10 man unit of Archers in my current build to keep my Wizard lord mobile and out of the way. Little detachments of 5 man Archers/Free company normally used to draw out Fanatics, re-direct at the last second, or intercept Mangler Squigs. Pegasus Hero. Enough things that Scouts are never near the things I care about.

Zoned wrote:I'd agree with that statement. Empire Cannons are also cheaper than both (assuming you buy the Rune of Forging or an Engineer.)

I'm not sure about Dwarfs, I don't own that book.

But the Ogre Ironblaster can not only move and fire, but is also (IMO) the best chariot in the game. T6 4+ with an Ogre and a Rhinox is hard to compete with. Compared to some of the chariots in O&G, or Beastmen, I'd say the Ironblaster as a Chariot is worth about 100 points.

You're absolutely right, the Ironblaster is pretty awesome. On the balance side, you're only allowed two.

After trying to write some lists, I find it very difficult to get everything to fit. By the time you get large enough combat blocks, cannons, a stank, two units of Demiknights and a derp-canum, you only have 300 points left. Still need characters and redirector units. If you take out a unit of knights, then you still only have ~550 points for all of this.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Unless you run special characters DOC is not top tier. Ogres on the other hand can reach that height with ease. But I am not going get into another competitive ogre debate.

I was going to comment on it but didn't want to sidetrack the thread. But since you already did :p

I also don't think DoC are top tier anymore. They were in 7th almost exclusively because of infinite power dice. That's long gone.

I think very few armies stick out way ahead of the others. It's more that some are lagging behind. I bet both my left feet that any new DoC book will have more buffs than nerfs. Though not sure who the whole gift process will work.

zeekill wrote:

Zoned wrote:
Any army with cannons will probably run 2 or more cannons. Turn 1-2 you make the stank useless, turn 2-3 you kill the Wizardmobile. You need at most 2 shots to hit unless you are unlucky.
Lots of armies can hurt that thing with magic.
Also, any army that has scouts/fast cavalry can tie that thing up in combat forever. If you flank it it gets 2 WS3 S3 attacks. In the front it gets 4 WS3 S3.
I think compared to other armys' support options it is pretty fragile.

2-3 cannons are going to do 10 wounds in 1 shooting phase? That's pretty impressive. If it takes more than one round of shooting, factor in the return fire as well.
Steam Tank is still solid. Just make sure you've got 3 normal cannons to go with it/them, so that you can shell his cannons as he shells the steam tank.

Magic that hurts T6 W10 1+ armor is pretty limited. Pit/Sun mostly, + pedulum and spear. It take a fair amount of effort to magic/shoot a steam tank dead, and the new rules lets it keep kicking a lot longer.
You won't be tieing it up forever with a flank charge. You'll be taking 1D3 S6 hits/steam in my movement phase. Should you survive that, you'll get the 2D6 hits from the breathe in combat (S2 to S4).
If you do flank charge a tank, you're giving up your options to shoot it, and greatly limiting your options to magic it to death. If in the front, the engineer will take his 4 S4AP quick to fire shots on your way in as well.

I'm thinking triple cannons, with a mortar or two and double tanks is still a brutal list.
Don't know if the 2nd tank will synergize better than 2 hellblasters.


-Matt

Johnny-Crass wrote:Big problems though.
1. Stank is still over priced for something that can take a cannon ball and just crumple like a tin can.
2. Flaggies were one of our only tarpits /redirectors
3. Mortar needed to be nerfed but for those of us who owned 3 it is now just a waste of money
4. The Warriorpriest/ Arch Lector dice nerf I saw coming but honestly we have a very weak magic phase now.
5. What they did to the Waralter.... Well lets just say it was bad touch

Just saw this thread and I want to post a few things on the above topics and some others, I want to say this isnt a flame thread or bad mouthing I am just making some observations as a friendly gamer :

1). I dont think that it is really any different from any army book Johnny, I understand that it is a risk taking a monstrous creature/machine like that, I ran treemen and was absolutely terrified of cannons and the like, but its not any different from other books who have a unit like that.
2). Didnt know much about these guys but 10pts. for an unbreakable unit does seem a little cheap. I think these guys are not as nerfed as you think, looking @ their special rules they have the potential to be quite good.
3). Being an elf player I agree the mortar was WAY to good for what it did, however I think Empire players are overreacting somewhat to its nerfing. You still are getting a large blast template (which means your hitting alot of guys) and it still has armor piercing and the ability to re-roll scatter dice if it wanted. Being an elf player it was frustrating as hell to have half my army wiped out in turn 1 by 3+ mortars...it needed to be fixed, and I feel that no warmachine should be under 100pts. I agree it is useless vs some armies (it will still perform well vs T3 armies especially thanks to the armor piercing) but this has been balanced out by how amazingly good the hellblaster has now become.
4). Empire Magic is not weak, its just not super amazing which fits with the human fluff. The fact that your warrior priests can cast spells without fear of miscast and generate power and dispel dice along with having some very good bound spells make them quite a steal, especially since they got cheaper. Also your machines are quite good IMO, yes they have weak armor, but then again the ability to give your guys +1 to hit in CC (saw it in action and it was nasty) and cast more bound spells is quite good along with having access to every lore in the game, I think your magic phase is stronger then you think.
5). The waralter was ridiculous the way it was before, now it is just more balanced.

Now on other topics:

-The mortar did get "fixed" but the hellblaster has now become Very good. The fact you can give it your engineers BS (hitting on 4+'s @ long range), have to roll 2 misfires to blow it up (also the first one can be ignored by the engineer re-roll) and is only 120pts. is a steal and more then makes up for what the mortar now lacks. Watched one of these wreck a Ogre Bull Horde with a 2nd one there to clean up the mess the first one made.

-Demigryph Knights are also extremely good. With the mount dishing out x3 S5 attacks each turn (along with a stomp) and the rider potentially adding another S5 attack if he takes a halberd, pluse a 1+ armor save is fantastic! Along with being amazingly cool models I expect to see several units of these guys running up a flank making them a serious threat.

-The biggest argument/complaint I have seen amongst Empire players (my twin included) is how State Troops were raised in points cost. Now I know I am probably going to get flak for this but I really dont think its as bad as many players are making it out to be. First of all it fits the fluff, Empire armies are not supposed to outnumber their enemy (in fact almost every piece of fluff, black library book describes how they fight and often win against larger forces). Also in this regard their infantry are supposed to be average and are supposed to be supported, it is how the Empire army functions. The book offers some of the best support in the game (Cold Blooded, Hatred, +1 to hit ect.) and it is what makes your average infantry better. Secondly how many armies can say they have access to 7pt. guys with WS4 or 6pt. guys with a S4? Though a tiny bit more expensive they are still quite cheap for what you get, when added with the support units offered they become quite a steal. Also the complaint on missile troops, almost all missile troops have gone up in points in the new books and even then for what you get its still relatively cheap. I hear "but were BS3" but take into account your still alot cheaper then almost every other ranged unit in the game and have an access to a better variety then some.

-Building on the State troops the fact that whatever you cast on the parent unit (as long as the detachment is within 3 inches) the detachment unit gets is really good. Greatsword detachments already get the Stubborn LD8 but also get the benefits that the units get for example, that is quite awesome and does alot towards making the infantry able to hold their own.

Overall I like the new additions and changes to the Empire book and I think it will go a long way in making the game of Fantasy much more balanced then it is now (especially when every other book gets redone). This is just my two cents on what have I read and seen.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

zeekill wrote:
Any army with cannons will probably run 2 or more cannons. Turn 1-2 you make the stank useless, turn 2-3 you kill the Wizardmobile. You need at most 2 shots to hit unless you are unlucky.
Lots of armies can hurt that thing with magic.
Also, any army that has scouts/fast cavalry can tie that thing up in combat forever. If you flank it it gets 2 WS3 S3 attacks. In the front it gets 4 WS3 S3.
I think compared to other armys' support options it is pretty fragile.

2-3 cannons are going to do 10 wounds in 1 shooting phase? That's pretty impressive. If it takes more than one round of shooting, factor in the return fire as well.
Steam Tank is still solid. Just make sure you've got 3 normal cannons to go with it/them, so that you can shell his cannons as he shells the steam tank.

Magic that hurts T6 W10 1+ armor is pretty limited. Pit/Sun mostly, + pedulum and spear. It take a fair amount of effort to magic/shoot a steam tank dead, and the new rules lets it keep kicking a lot longer.
You won't be tieing it up forever with a flank charge. You'll be taking 1D3 S6 hits/steam in my movement phase. Should you survive that, you'll get the 2D6 hits from the breathe in combat (S2 to S4).
If you do flank charge a tank, you're giving up your options to shoot it, and greatly limiting your options to magic it to death. If in the front, the engineer will take his 4 S4AP quick to fire shots on your way in as well.

I'm thinking triple cannons, with a mortar or two and double tanks is still a brutal list.
Don't know if the 2nd tank will synergize better than 2 hellblasters.


-Matt

1) Does no one ever preview their posts when it requires messing with a ton of quotes?

2) You don't need 2-3 cannons to do 10 wounds. You need 2-3 cannons to do about 5-6. After that it is too dangerous to generate more than 3 steam points, severely limiting what you can do, and in combat with decent fighters your tank will fall and give away the 250 points.

And lets face it, that was the best part of the Stank last edition. You took it and that meant 300 points your opponent would never get unless they had pit or sun, that holds up any unit for the whole game.

zeekill wrote:

Zoned wrote:WPs are equally durable (pretty much) as they were in the old army book. Except they are cheaper. Whatever you did to keep them alive then, you can do it now for less.

I ran an Arch Lector on WA. I didn't need anything else because there was nothing that couldn't be handled after taking 3 turns of shooting from 3 Mortars, 2 Rocket Batteries, and The Withering from lore of shadow.
Now, they obviously want us to run combat blocks, and yet do nothing to improve the survivability of the model that holds our unit intact during combats.

There's the problem that needed to be fixed.

Those lists aren't fun to play and even less fun to play against. I barely played gunline empire before, but I stopped altogether when partials were introduced in 8th.

jouso wrote:

zeekill wrote:

Zoned wrote:WPs are equally durable (pretty much) as they were in the old army book. Except they are cheaper. Whatever you did to keep them alive then, you can do it now for less.

I ran an Arch Lector on WA. I didn't need anything else because there was nothing that couldn't be handled after taking 3 turns of shooting from 3 Mortars, 2 Rocket Batteries, and The Withering from lore of shadow.
Now, they obviously want us to run combat blocks, and yet do nothing to improve the survivability of the model that holds our unit intact during combats.

There's the problem that needed to be fixed.

Those lists aren't fun to play and even less fun to play against. I barely played gunline empire before, but I stopped altogether when partials were introduced in 8th.

I completely agree. That list was 100% overpowered.

But if they are going to change the focus of the book to blocks of dudes with WP to support, the least they could have done was make WPs more survivable. Something like:

Chosen of Sigmar - 5+ ward save

and the option to take full plate would have been plenty, and I would gladly pay more for this.

zeekill wrote:But if they are going to change the focus of the book to blocks of dudes with WP to support, the least they could have done was make WPs more survivable. Something like:

Chosen of Sigmar - 5+ ward save

and the option to take full plate would have been plenty, and I would gladly pay more for this.

They have a 50pt magic item allowance, that goes a long way to make them survivable. And in any case, whatever attacks go to the WP (or captain) adds max 2 to combat resolution, so the opp is taking a gamble either way, ok he may get that pesky WP out, but he risks losing combat in return.

Sadly I haven't had time to test new empire, but I have the feeling a lot of the buffs will go through because either:

- The opp will try to dispel on a single die and roll 1 or 2.
- Use 2 dice to dispel single die prayers

Empire will throw a lot of cheap spells, it's target saturation time for wannabe dispellers.

Several posts removed or edited.

There's no need to insult or be rude to other posters.