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reds8n wrote: Several posts removed or edited.

There's no need to insult or be rude to other posters.

But mom! He called me a virus!

kk sorry

Hey Zeekil, I've posted a list in the WFB lists section. Would like to hear your thoughts.

Zoned wrote:Hey Zeekil, I've posted a list in the WFB lists section. Would like to hear your thoughts.

Done

For anyone else that wants to see his list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/442365.page#4138154

I've really spent a lot of time chewing on the new book the last week. This is what I'm thinking:

The Steam Tank should have never been T10. If one compares it to the original book version of the stank, it's better. Way better. If one compares it to the FAQ version...it's still better, just not quite as better. I'm okay with that. Being able to charge 360 is probably alone going to ruin people's days. Having a chance against things like Pit of Shades is even better.

There are really two changes that make me really go 'duh-wha'? The state troop price increase and the mortar ubernerf.

I'll be the first to admit that mortars needed a nerf. But they needed either the price increase or the S2 move. Either one individually would have been sufficient to bring it in line with other similar artillery pieces in the game-the plagueclaw catapult, trebuchet, the rock lobba, etc. Both combined mean it's worthless now. What I think players of some other armies are missing here is that most Empire players aren't 'whining' that their ubertoy got nerfed and isn't broken anymore-it's that all of their artillery got nerfed, and the mortar, instead of getting the nerf it deserved, got blown out of the water with how bad it is now. I'm not in the position of going from fielding three to fielding none-I'm in the position of having included one or two in an army and now not bothering.

The state troop change is the other mystifying thing-I completely understand the argument that our troops get buffed with magic, and yes, the Empire has on the face of it a decent magic phase, providing one takes an Arch-Lector, a Level 4, a derpcanum, and another warrior priest just to be on the safe side. But that shifts the emphasis of the army-and that's what I, and a lot of other players have an issue with. It's a situation where our army went from doing a little bit of everything-a solid shooting phase, granted, a mediocre but respectable magic phase, and a combat phase where we drowned you in our own blood to win, but we won, damnit-phase-to one where the shooting phase is largely gone, aside from helblasters, more or less, to relying on a good magic phase so we can win in the combat phase.

From a game-balance standpoint, if you want to make the army synergistic between the different phases, the way to account for that points wise isn't to bump the prices of the individuals mans in the army-that prevents people who are playing small games, or for various reasons want to avoid a powerful magic phase-say they play dwarves a lot and they're never going to get those spells off-from really doing well. The points to account for these changes should be made in the characters. Now our characters shouldn't be murderers in combat, I completely agree with that. I do think our combat lord characters should all have four attacks, but that's from a "I think a skilled human fighter should be better than a giant rat in hand to hand' standpoint. But the buffs, which is the bread and butter of your new gameplay mindset, need to be more reliable, and their points cost should be inherent to the people bestowing them, NOT in the troops themselves.

Which takes me to my next point. Empire DOES NOT have Cold Blooded. If we had Cold Blooded, any Empire player who was complaining should be beaten with a derpcanum. What the Empire has is Cold Blooded for BREAK TESTS alone. If it applied to all psychology tests, then, yes, the points spread would be reasonable. But it's only something that's applicable when you've LOST COMBAT. I feel this needs to be emphasized here. This new ability is only applicable when the Empire LOSE COMBAT. Which, because of all of these inherent buffs you've pointed into the army, shouldn't be happening as much as the point value you've assigned to Hold The Line seems to be accounting for.

This is especially relevant in an era with steadfast BSB rerolled 9's in any competently designed Empire army. That's great, Hold The Line has made my, what, 87% chance of holding now a 96% chance of holding? That's great...it's not worth the, say, 150 point premium that's now been built into the list, between captains and generals of the Empire, and the increased cost of state troops, in order to accomplish it. You know when my units break, on average? When they've been massacred so completely that I need snake-eyes to stay anyway, and chances are any characters that were in that unit are long since dead.

I understand what they were trying to do with the whole synergy thing in this new book. I really do. The issue I have, and I think most veteran Empire players who aren't reflexively bitching about nerfs, is that they completely botched the execution of their game plan when writing the book. Which, given we're talking about Cruddace...doesn't surprise me.

I only have one Captain in my lists so far, the BSB, as with a Greatsword block with standard of discipline, even a lowly wizard (my new Wizard will be an old Dwarf Wizard) can produce a leadership 9 bubble to keep the plebs in line.

Slacker wrote:I'll be the first to admit that mortars needed a nerf. But they needed either the price increase or the S2 move. Either one individually would have been sufficient to bring it in line with other similar artillery pieces in the game-the plagueclaw catapult, trebuchet, the rock lobba, etc.

Again, we're in 8th edition. Comparing units to items from other editions doesn't work well.

But you mentioned rock lobba. The rock is cheaper by 15. It fears elves by default. The stats of its crew are inferior to the stats of mortar in all ways. You can add an Orc Bully and then it costs only 5 less than Mortar. It uses the small template. Instead of str2 AP it's str 3 for the bulk. AND it's Rare.

While I don't always recommend direct comparisons of individual models in disparate army books, because I feel pretty confident they don't balance armies model:model, the rock lobba and mortar are certainly not leagues apart. If that makes you hate the mortar, that's your call. But compare to Screaming Skulls or even Scraplauncher, both of which are small template Rares.

Empire is a large template special, which seems to me like what they wanted to do.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Slacker wrote:I'll be the first to admit that mortars needed a nerf. But they needed either the price increase or the S2 move. Either one individually would have been sufficient to bring it in line with other similar artillery pieces in the game-the plagueclaw catapult, trebuchet, the rock lobba, etc.

Again, we're in 8th edition. Comparing units to items from other editions doesn't work well.

But you mentioned rock lobba. The rock is cheaper by 15. It fears elves by default. The stats of its crew are inferior to the stats of mortar in all ways. You can add an Orc Bully and then it costs only 5 less than Mortar. It uses the small template. Instead of str2 AP it's str 3 for the bulk. AND it's Rare.

While I don't always recommend direct comparisons of individual models in disparate army books, because I feel pretty confident they don't balance armies model:model, the rock lobba and mortar are certainly not leagues apart. If that makes you hate the mortar, that's your call. But compare to Screaming Skulls or even Scraplauncher, both of which are small template Rares.

Empire is a large template special, which seems to me like what they wanted to do.

Dammit, I hate it when people like you make sense

Compared to 7th edition books, 8th books don't look that strong. Comparing 8th to 8th, I'm happy. I'm enjoying the feel of this edition more than anything since 5th (when one friend wasn't running a 10-stat Bloodthirster with fly-high or the other wasn't running Malekith on a dragon). Points are evening out similarly to what they used to be. I welcome the change. The feel now is big blocks of flashy units, not a couple monsters, small units of cavalry and chariots racing across the board. I think 8th is actually their strongest edition yet. I know people will claim blasphemy, but I truly feel that way. I hope 6th edition 40k sees equivalent changes. *ducks to avoid bloodstrike missiles, mortar blasts and met-uhm, finecast, manglers* And yes, I started as an Empire player.

The special to rare comparison honestly doesn't concern me-I haven't maxed out my rare choices in any of the lists I've written so far, and to be honest I'd rather have a useful rare than a pointless special.

And for all that you suggest that I limit my comparison to 8th edition armies, the reality is that I have to play armies whose books were written in 7th-and in a couple of cases, sixth. If Games Workshop operated, say, like Battlefront or Privateer Press, where all of the armies were updated at the same time, your point would be more valid, but until the majority of the armies are updated to the current version, we have an issue with the mortar. The reality is that just because it's not that much worse than the rock lobba doesn't make it any better-it's still just objectively a poor choice in the book now.

Hell, let's just compare it with items that are in the Empire book-it's the distant fourth out of four artillery pieces, special or rare. The increased emphasis on characters in the new book means that there's even fewer points being spent in special or rare, and given the option of taking a mortar, or a helstorm rocket battery (to say nothing of the hellblaster, which is far and away the best option now)...that mortar's going back on the shelf. It's an issue where not only is the mortar a poor second cousin to artillery in other books, but also just poorly internally balanced against the rest of the Empire book.

But that gets back to the core of my original point, which is that the book has absolutely awful internal balance.

Slacker wrote:The special to rare comparison honestly doesn't concern me-I haven't maxed out my rare choices

That's you. In the game world having an option Core>Special>Rare. That's how it works.

And for all that you suggest that I limit my comparison to 8th edition armies, the reality is that I have to play armies whose books were written in 7th-and in a couple of cases, sixth.

Yet, you cherry picked of those and compared it to the better items in each category when there are far more appropriate and current items you didn't. You didn't compare it to Wood Elf tree snotters or whatever they have. You want to pick and choose at random from old books then other people can as well. The mortar is vastly, VASTLY better than the war machine Daemons have--which is nothing.

Slacker wrote: The reality is that just because it's not that much worse than the rock lobba doesn't make it any better-it's still just objectively a poor choice in the book now.

It was getting a price rise regardless, and the only question was whether it was going to S2 Lartge template, or S3 small template. It does the job it always did.

My condolensces that you can no longer abuse an 8th ed rule with a 7th ed book.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where taking a single mortar was somehow abusive of game mechanics. Good way to assume, incidentally.

I completely agree it should have gotten a performance nerf or a points increase. It got both. You are missing the point of what I'm trying to say here (and I also notice you're fixating on the mortar thing, which indicates to me I've made my point in the rest of my post)

The mortar is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. It's an example of ham-handed attempts to force game balance to compensate for poor rules writing and a desire to sell new shiny things (although I don't really see how making the mortar suck forces me to buy a derpcanum, I was going to get one solely due to how awesome it looks). It's a symptom of poor game rules writing and poor mechanics.

Regarding comparing things to a Daemon army or a Wood Elf army, do either of those armies feature war machines as a significant component of their armies? Did I miss that somewhere? When I'm getting wiped off the table by daemons, it's funny, I always thought it was the magic and the close combat prowess. Obviously when we're making a comparison of army assets we're making a relevant comparison between similar aspects of different books. The fact that the Wood Elf book has been neglected for far too long and is godawful right now has no bearing on my issues with the new Empire book, it's just another thing Games Workshop has executed poorly.

Slacker wrote:Obviously when we're making a comparison of army assets we're making a relevant comparison between similar aspects of different books.

And this is what I suggested you do and compare them to 8th edition armies that were recently rebalanced and re-engineered, just like Empire, yet you seem reluctant to do--because mortars are obviously spot on if you do that.

zeekill wrote:

reds8n wrote: Several posts removed or edited.

There's no need to insult or be rude to other posters.

But mom! He called me a virus!

kk sorry

Nope.

I called your negativity a virus.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Slacker wrote:Obviously when we're making a comparison of army assets we're making a relevant comparison between similar aspects of different books.

And this is what I suggested you do and compare them to 8th edition armies that were recently rebalanced and re-engineered, just like Empire, yet you seem reluctant to do--because mortars are obviously spot on if you do that.

I don't think it's as obvious as you seem to. Again, I think it was overnerfed. The price increase or the strength decrease would have been sufficient. Remember the proportionally greater role artillery plays in the Empire army in relation to the other 8th Edition armies thus far-Ogres, Vamps, TK, and O&G. Hell, the Ogres now have the best cannon in the game, and in the other three armies artillery doesn't play the same role.

I think the OP makes good analysis. Empire are now weaker than many of the old books (dark elves come to mind), but very much in line with most of the hardcover books. I'm very pleased with the development of 8th so far, and if eventually we end up with books more or less in line with everything post-skaven, I'll be more than content.

Slacker wrote:

The mortar is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. It's an example of ham-handed attempts to force game balance to compensate for poor rules writing and a desire to sell new shiny things (although I don't really see how making the mortar suck forces me to buy a derpcanum, I was going to get one solely due to how awesome it looks). It's a symptom of poor game rules writing and poor mechanics.

I couldn't agree more. Sigged!

If anyone wanted to start a 7th-edition group for players fed up with 8th edition rules and army lists, I'd be down with that.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Slacker wrote:

The mortar is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. It's an example of ham-handed attempts to force game balance to compensate for poor rules writing and a desire to sell new shiny things (although I don't really see how making the mortar suck forces me to buy a derpcanum, I was going to get one solely due to how awesome it looks). It's a symptom of poor game rules writing and poor mechanics.

I couldn't agree more. Sigged!

If anyone wanted to start a 7th-edition group for players fed up with 8th edition rules and army lists, I'd be down with that.

Ok have fun but that means no more commenting on a game you do not play! Or atleast no one will listen to you

I find it odd that all the artillery in this book is somehow tougher than the steam tank. the baffles...

I am done raging about the book. Now it is time to crush it under hoof and undead heel

combatmedic wrote:I find it odd that all the artillery in this book is somehow tougher than the steam tank. the baffles...

Yeah, but that was the case in the old book too, setting aside the absurd PDF.

I was so used to that damn PDF I forgot about that...

Still crazy damn it.

DukeRustfield wrote:
That's you. In the game world having an option Core>Special>Rare. That's how it works.

No, it isn't. That's how you produce army books where people set about minimising core and maxxing rare as a matter of course. Its awful, disfunctional design.

I though the mortal used the small template but now I find out it uses the large? Even with S2 it is still very good vs many armies that have T3, little armour high cost unit. High elf and wood elf special characters come to mind. Perhaps some skaven and empier armies as well, I do not know them so good.

Big blast template S2 on a hit could quite easaly take out over half it's point in swordmen.

Niiai wrote:I though the mortal used the small template but now I find out it uses the large? Even with S2 it is still very good vs many armies that have T3, little armour high cost unit. High elf and wood elf special characters come to mind. Perhaps some skaven and empier armies as well, I do not know them so good.

Big blast template S2 on a hit could quite easaly take out over half it's point in swordmen.

I agree here. Roll enough S2 dice and you will ruin a T3 horde players day. I see it with Soul Stealer from Dark Magic. Sure you need 5s or 6s to wound but if you're rolling enough dice you will get those 5s and 6s. If you don't like the odds of 5+ to wound then use Lore of Shadow to lower their toughness and presto, wounding on 4s or 3s.

sebster wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
That's you. In the game world having an option Core>Special>Rare. That's how it works.

No, it isn't. That's how you produce army books where people set about minimising core and maxxing rare as a matter of course. Its awful, disfunctional design.

But you can't "max it" cuz it's Rare. You can have 2 of a Rare. You can have 3 mortars cuz they are Special. If mortars were Core for Empire they would be crazy powerful, like when they did that with 40K IG and that totally worked!

It's a way of limiting them. You only have 1 queen and 2 rooks. If you had 2 queens even if you had to swap out a rook, you'd be vastly better than the side that was left with 2 and 1.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Slacker wrote:

The mortar is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. It's an example of ham-handed attempts to force game balance to compensate for poor rules writing and a desire to sell new shiny things (although I don't really see how making the mortar suck forces me to buy a derpcanum, I was going to get one solely due to how awesome it looks). It's a symptom of poor game rules writing and poor mechanics.

I couldn't agree more. Sigged!

If anyone wanted to start a 7th-edition group for players fed up with 8th edition rules and army lists, I'd be down with that.

lol, im sure every daemon, VC and DE player would enjoy that very much.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Slacker wrote:

The mortar is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself. It's an example of ham-handed attempts to force game balance to compensate for poor rules writing and a desire to sell new shiny things (although I don't really see how making the mortar suck forces me to buy a derpcanum, I was going to get one solely due to how awesome it looks). It's a symptom of poor game rules writing and poor mechanics.

I couldn't agree more. Sigged!

If anyone wanted to start a 7th-edition group for players fed up with 8th edition rules and army lists, I'd be down with that.

Ok have fun but that means no more commenting on a game you do not play! Or atleast no one will listen to you

I could live with that if such a group existed. GW certainly doesn't listen to anyone before they put out army nerfs, wack retcons and ludicrous rulebooks. "You might as well lie back and enjoy it" is not how I roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Niiai wrote:I though the mortal used the small template but now I find out it uses the large? Even with S2 it is still very good vs many armies that have T3, little armour high cost unit. High elf and wood elf special characters come to mind. Perhaps some skaven and empier armies as well, I do not know them so good.

Big blast template S2 on a hit could quite easaly take out over half it's point in swordmen.

I agree here. Roll enough S2 dice and you will ruin a T3 horde players day. I see it with Soul Stealer from Dark Magic. Sure you need 5s or 6s to wound but if you're rolling enough dice you will get those 5s and 6s. If you don't like the odds of 5+ to wound then use Lore of Shadow to lower their toughness and presto, wounding on 4s or 3s.

And presto, wounding on 4s or 3s unless you're dispelled, or don't roll high enough, assuming you even have the right spell in the first place. Yep, nothing like a reliable magic phase to compensate for a poorly-revised stat line.

But that seems to be GW's marching orders for 8th edition.