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So I'm dusting my Tau off after a long hiatus to participate in a 2500 point tournament, for a little change of pace.

The CIB & PR commander rides with the bladestorms, the Helios'El rides with the helios suits. Firewarriors highjack the pathfinder's rides. And um... yeah.. that's it!


HQ
Commander Shas'El /w CIB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @130p

Commander Shas'El /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @127p

Elite
Bladestorm Team @189p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w BC, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w BC, PR, MT

Helios Team @201p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w FB, PR, MT

Death Rain Team @194p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w TL MP, TA, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w TL MP, TA

FAST ATTACK
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p

TROOPS
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
12x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @144p
12x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @144p

HEAVY SUPPORT
Broadside Team 1 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA


Broadside Team 2 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA

Hammerhead Gunship /w Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Dispod, MT @130p

holy gak so many guns

ahem any way

i belive this is a solid list you have alot of infantry so objectives are yeas but then again your troops and non suit people are squishy so you need to play aggressive or cautous when fighting in kill points

I'd give both HQs BKs. Rallying 2 suits is worth it. I'd bond the Deathrains, too.

Why a RailRifle in each PF crew?

Wouldja be willing to take out a Deathrain for a Railhead upgrade from the IonCan?

Other than those tiny items, it looks solid enough.

Cottonjaw wrote:So I'm dusting my Tau off after a long hiatus to participate in a 2500 point tournament, for a little change of pace.

The CIB & PR commander rides with the bladestorms, the Helios'El rides with the helios suits. Firewarriors highjack the pathfinder's rides. And um... yeah.. that's it!


HQ
Commander Shas'El /w CIB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @130p

Commander Shas'El /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @127p

Elite
Bladestorm Team @189p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w BC, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w BC, PR, MT

Helios Team @201p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w FB, PR, MT

Death Rain Team @194p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w TL MP, TA, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w TL MP, TA

FAST ATTACK
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p
6x Pathfinders /w 5x Markerlights, 1xRailrifle /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @167p

TROOPS
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
12x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @144p
12x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @144p

HEAVY SUPPORT
Broadside Team 1 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA


Broadside Team 2 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA

Hammerhead Gunship /w Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Dispod, MT @130p

1. Your FW need devilfish.

2. Carnivores are better than hounds, max them out before you add any hounds.

3. Unnecessary to have team leaders on the crisis suit teams. 1 model with +1 bs isn't worth 15 point more, or 20 if you go for shas'vre.

4. You don't need shield drones on your crisis suits (it's okay to use on commanders though)

5. Pathfinders are over-rated, as is the option to use railrifles (RR only good on FW piranhas)

6. Though the broadside support system is largely a matter of choice, I recommend the A.S.S. so you can move and fire.

7. Don't take the Ion Cannon. It is okay for 1000pt> games, but at this level, it will not put a dent in your opponents.

8. For your deathrain, the other deathrain variant (TLMP+flamer) is both better and more cost effective. It is 6 points cheaper a suit, makes them unappealing targets for assault (and slightly less likely to die because they can thin numbers) and the slight decrease in accuracy is rather unimportant, as they are already hitting 75% of the time.

The modifications to your crisis suits I have suggested alone should bring your list cost down 83 points.
The kroot change (-20 hounds, +16 carnivores) should net you 8 points.
If you remove one unit of FW, you will get back 60.
If you remove one unit of PF completely, and remove the RR from the others, you save yourself 187 points.

That's 338 points saved there.

Now, one Devilfish for each of the firewarrior squads, with DP, means that you've spent 170 of those points.

168 points left. That's enough to get two bodyguards with MT+TA+BC+PR each for the Shas'el with the CIB and PR, or some piranhas, or upgrade the Ionhead to a Railgun and a piranha etc.

You could upgrade a shas'el to r'alai too!

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:1. Your FW need devilfish.

Three units of PFs with three empty D'fish.

Three FW units needing D'fish.

Oh, what shall Cottonjaw do for transports?

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:3. Unnecessary to have team leaders on the crisis suit teams. 1 model with +1 bs isn't worth 15 point more, or 20 if you go for shas'vre.

Why would anyone bother with a 'Vre upgrade when TmLdr does the same thing for, as you cited 5 points less? Anyway, many feel BS4, and an added Wound Allocation Shenanigan option is worth it.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:4. You don't need shield drones on your crisis suits (it's okay to use on commanders though)

At 2500, the enemy's volume of fire requires Crisis Teams be beefy in size, because the battle field will be too full of enemy gaining LoS to make JSJ reasonably safe. So, best to go with numbers in big games.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:5. Pathfinders are over-rated, as is the option to use railrifles (RR only good on FW piranhas)

Since he's maxed out the other slots, Elites and Heavy, what's better?

Seriously, you're pointing out things that are problems with the points level. You did note that it's a 2500 list? Meaning, there isn't much a tau player *can* do about fielding PFs and such north of 2k.

The only thing better would be squadrons of piranha.

@Cottonjaw, do ya got 9 or so piranhas?

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:6. Though the broadside support system is largely a matter of choice, I recommend the A.S.S. so you can move and fire.
7. Don't take the Ion Cannon. It is okay for 1000pt> games, but at this level, it will not put a dent in your opponents.

There ya go! Good advice! I agree with both of these items.


The rest has to do with buying 'fish he's already got, so no need to comment there.

Brothererekose wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:1. Your FW need devilfish.

Three units of PFs with three empty D'fish.

Three FW units needing D'fish.

Oh, what shall Cottonjaw do for transports?

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:3. Unnecessary to have team leaders on the crisis suit teams. 1 model with +1 bs isn't worth 15 point more, or 20 if you go for shas'vre.

Why would anyone bother with a 'Vre upgrade when TmLdr does the same thing for, as you cited 5 points less? Anyway, many feel BS4, and an added Wound Allocation Shenanigan option is worth it.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:4. You don't need shield drones on your crisis suits (it's okay to use on commanders though)

At 2500, the enemy's volume of fire requires Crisis Teams be beefy in size, because the battle field will be too full of enemy gaining LoS to make JSJ reasonably safe. So, best to go with numbers in big games.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:5. Pathfinders are over-rated, as is the option to use railrifles (RR only good on FW piranhas)

Since he's maxed out the other slots, Elites and Heavy, what's better?

Seriously, you're pointing out things that are problems with the points level. You did note that it's a 2500 list? Meaning, there isn't much a tau player *can* do about fielding PFs and such north of 2k.

The only thing better would be squadrons of piranha.

@Cottonjaw, do ya got 9 or so piranhas?

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:6. Though the broadside support system is largely a matter of choice, I recommend the A.S.S. so you can move and fire.
7. Don't take the Ion Cannon. It is okay for 1000pt> games, but at this level, it will not put a dent in your opponents.

There ya go! Good advice! I agree with both of these items.


The rest has to do with buying 'fish he's already got, so no need to comment there.

1. On the size of board needed for 2500 points, you're basically consigning the PF to early death making them give up their transports and thus wasting 246 points (10% of his list) on path finders. Or you could give FW their own fish/remove the PF entirely.

And they are not forced onto you. You can use piranhas. You can use XV9s (this isn't a tourney, is it?).

3. I didn't suggest 'vre. (except as bodyguard later in the post, but not at this point), I was pointing out that if any of them were 'vres and I missed it (too lazy to scroll up) he would save 20. And wound allocation isn't worth as much with the near-apoc levels of firepower present in 2500 games. Quantity>survivability, hence the bodyguard suggestion. And it really isn't worth it, 15 points is a disruption pod and a multi-tracker.

4. Same thing as last point, adding these drones removes space for more suits. I would rather have the commanders bring their own units then add some unnecessary drones.

5. I kinda touched this one on my point 1,,,but seriously, if it is not a tourney, xv9s are the way to go at this points level, their firepower is immense. And then there's r'alai, a tau unit good enough to be strong even with purifiers and stormravens and blood talons out there.

Glad we agree on six and seven

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

1. Your FW need devilfish.

2. Carnivores are better than hounds, max them out before you add any hounds.

3. Unnecessary to have team leaders on the crisis suit teams. 1 model with +1 bs isn't worth 15 point more, or 20 if you go for shas'vre.

4. You don't need shield drones on your crisis suits (it's okay to use on commanders though)

5. Pathfinders are over-rated, as is the option to use railrifles (RR only good on FW piranhas)

6. Though the broadside support system is largely a matter of choice, I recommend the A.S.S. so you can move and fire.

7. Don't take the Ion Cannon. It is okay for 1000pt> games, but at this level, it will not put a dent in your opponents.

8. For your deathrain, the other deathrain variant (TLMP+flamer) is both better and more cost effective. It is 6 points cheaper a suit, makes them unappealing targets for assault (and slightly less likely to die because they can thin numbers) and the slight decrease in accuracy is rather unimportant, as they are already hitting 75% of the time.

The modifications to your crisis suits I have suggested alone should bring your list cost down 83 points.
The kroot change (-20 hounds, +16 carnivores) should net you 8 points.
If you remove one unit of FW, you will get back 60.
If you remove one unit of PF completely, and remove the RR from the others, you save yourself 187 points.

That's 338 points saved there.

Now, one Devilfish for each of the firewarrior squads, with DP, means that you've spent 170 of those points.

168 points left. That's enough to get two bodyguards with MT+TA+BC+PR each for the Shas'el with the CIB and PR, or some piranhas, or upgrade the Ionhead to a Railgun and a piranha etc.

You could upgrade a shas'el to r'alai too!

1. The Firewarriors have Devilfish. They're jacking the Pathies ride, which is 1/2 the appeal of the pathfinders.
2. No they're not. Initiative 5. The ability to put wounds on marines first. Kroot Rifles never kill anything.
3. Read my Tau Crisis Suit Mathhammer for the suprising truth: Team Leaders /w Targeters are not only more effective, they're more efficient than BS3 suits.
4. At 2500 you do.
5. I wholeheartedly disagree. Cover denial and BS increase are key. I may drop the rail rifles to upgrade the Hammerhead to a Railhead.
6. Disagree. 6" isn't saving you from anything. The TA is much better.
7. The Hammerhead was included more for it's AV, than it's weapon. Although as a light armor removal tool, I find the Ioncannon is often overlooked, and a decent choice. I may upgrade to Railgun /w some points shaved by removing Rail Rifles.
8. Once again I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Sub 2500.. fine. 2500 point games though? Maximum effectiveness from those missile shots is key.

R'alai is Forgeworld, and therefore not tournament legal. Bodyguards are some of the least point efficient choices as far as suits go. In addition to tournament legality, basically noone plays with FW rules around here (or any of the 4 major cities I've played in)

And seriously you need to try out hounds.


You're other points:
1. Also, 2500 does not require a larger board size. It's a standard size game played on 6x4. If they are seriously targeting the pathies, I will be happy as a clam.
2. No forgeworld stuff. On top of not owning those overpriced piles of resin, they're legal in like... 5% of games played.
3. There isn't anything close to apoc fire levels @2500. Never heard of 'Ard Boyz tourney?
4. Disagree. More suits getting 1 shot by missile launchers doesn't help me in the long run. Shield drones keep suits alive.
5. Even if it's not a tourney... FW stuff isn't happening. Nobody plays with that crap, and for good reason too, since there are so many broken units (assault vehicle drop pods anyone?)

Removed rail rifles, made the Ionhead into a Railhead.

I only own 3 piranha. I could delete Pathies for it, but honestly I've had a lot of luck with Pathfinders. They support the shooting elements of my army, they are 216 points of infantry (paltry @2500 point game) that add versatility and support to an otherwise "pew pew pew" list.

HQ
Commander Shas'El /w CIB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @130p

Commander Shas'El /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT, HW DC, 2x Shield Drones @127p

Elite
Bladestorm Team @189p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w BC, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w BC, PR, MT

Helios Team @201p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w FB, PR, TA, HW MT
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w FB, PR, MT

Death Rain Team @194p
1x Crisis Battlesuit Team Leader /w TL MP, TA, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Crisis Battlesuits /w TL MP, TA

FAST ATTACK
6x Pathfinders /w /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @157p
6x Pathfinders /w /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @157p
6x Pathfinders /w /w Devilfish, Disruption Pod @157p

TROOPS
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
6x Fire Warriors @60p
12x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @144p
11x Kroot Carnivores /w 10x Kroot Hounds @137p

HEAVY SUPPORT
Broadside Team 1 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA


Broadside Team 2 @280p
1x Broadside Team Leader /w Railguns, SMS, TA, BK, HW DC /w 2x Shield Drones
2x Broadside Battlesuit /w Railguns, SMS, TA

Hammerhead Gunship /w Rail Cannon, Burst Cannons, Dispod, MT @165p

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:1. On the size of board needed for 2500 points, you're basically consigning the PF to early death making them give up their transports and thus wasting 246 points (10% of his list) on path finders. Or you could give FW their own fish/remove the PF entirely.

The PFs deploy within 13 or 14 inches of the edge and the units have good range. Just as much "consignation to early death" as any other tau unit facing ork BWs, DE raiders, SRG or other Turn 2 assaulters.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:3. I didn't suggest 'vre. (except as bodyguard later in the post, but not at this point), I was pointing out that if any of them were 'vres and I missed it (too lazy to scroll up) he would save 20. And wound allocation isn't worth as much with the near-apoc levels of firepower present in 2500 games. Quantity>survivability, hence the bodyguard suggestion. And it really isn't worth it, 15 points is a disruption pod and a multi-tracker.

I think we're on two shades of mid-gray here.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:4. Same thing as last point, adding these drones removes space for more suits. I would rather have the commanders bring their own units then add some unnecessary drones.

I can dig on less drones for more dakka. At 2500, I agree, one should have a full load of all available XV8s. Barring ownership of 15 suits, SDs are great for ablative wounds, given there isn't much else for tau to spend on at 2.5k.

I mean, if I owned the models, it'd be 15 suits, 9 broadsides, and piranhas up the yang.

But I often C&C a list based on models listed by the poster.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:5. I kinda touched this one on my point 1,,,but seriously, if it is not a tourney, xv9s are the way to go at this points level, their firepower is immense. And then there's r'alai, a tau unit good enough to be strong even with purifiers and stormravens and blood talons out there.

Outta my depth here with the xv9s. I dunno much about Forge World.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Glad we agree on six and seven

Awright then, damnit. Are you a whiskey guy or beer!??!

Even if it's not a tourney... FW stuff isn't happening. Nobody plays with that crap, and for good reason too, since there are so many broken units (assault vehicle drop pods anyone?)

In non-tournaments, <5% of people will decline to play FW, because it is much, much, MUCH better balanced than 90% of 5ed codices. Purifiers, broadsides, THSS termies, long fangs, BA fast everything...better than almost anything in FW.

Assault drop pods are expensive.
XV9s are expensive

They are both still good despite the price, but nowhere near game-breakingly good.

And they are not overpriced. FW broadsides cost the same as normal broadsides (Broadside=45CAD, FW broadside=29GBP/45.9CAD and r'alai =31GBP/49CAD, Shadowsun 45CAD)

excepting the DKoK, those models are pricey, but so much better than any standard guard...

As to the bodyguards, inefficient, sure. But it is more suits, valuable in a high points list, and they are still more efficient than hounds.

Hounds are not good. Ten hounds will average ~1 wound against marines, you will not lighten the attacks against you. Kroot Rifle is better.

Plus, if you are in terrain (your kroot should always be, especially forested terrain) then your enemies will be assaulting through difficult terrain, and attack after you anyways.

I won't respond to the rest, since I already did

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:And they are not overpriced. FW broadsides cost the same as normal broadsides (Broadside=45CAD, FW broadside=29GBP/45.9CAD and r'alai =31GBP/49CAD, Shadowsun 45CAD)

Huh. I paid $10 more for FW b-sides at the Games Day Los Angeles in 2006 (?). Totally worth it though; the resin over plastic suit and metal RGs.

Brothererekose wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:And they are not overpriced. FW broadsides cost the same as normal broadsides (Broadside=45CAD, FW broadside=29GBP/45.9CAD and r'alai =31GBP/49CAD, Shadowsun 45CAD)

Huh. I paid $10 more for FW b-sides at the Games Day Los Angeles in 2006 (?). Totally worth it though; the resin over plastic suit and metal RGs.

Metal RG make me rage, mine are broken beyond even the point of pinning and superglue...now I have a b-side with one RG and another with one RG and one arm.

And yeah, the FW are beautiful.

I am surprised you paid 10$ more for it...even the FW shipping would only jack it up by 5 or so dollars.