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Tell me what you guys think of this.

Swordmasters have a parry save of 6+ that can be used against close combat or ranged shooting attacks, except magic missiles or war machine fire. They also gain an additional attack and a +1 to their parry save for every point of WS they are higher than the average highest WS of the unit they are fighting.

e.g. WS6 vs WS4, your SM get a parry save of 4+, and 2 additional attacks per model.

I like the idea of a scaling parry save according to WS. The extra attack is a bit over the top.

Swordmasters are already great. I mean really good. They are the supposed hammer and the ward-guys are the anvil. Though people seem to take SM and just give them regen or ward or something via spells.

If you gave them a ward they would be encroaching on the other unit's purpose. I think if anything, SM will be getting a nerf of some kind when new HE comes out.

I just feel that their ridiculous WS of 6 isn't really worth what you pay for them.

I mean white lions are just as hammer-y as a unit and they work better in larger units due to only having 1 attack anyway.

Oh, I didn't even read this right. +1 attack per WS would make them the most ridiculously overpowered unit in the game. Sorry.

WS > about 5 or more is about exactly the same. It's only at the low low levels it matters much.

WS6 attacking WS 10 needs a 4. WS10 attacking WS10 needs a 4.

BAD IDEA.
6+ ward vs WS6 or higher
5+ ward vs WS5
4+ ward vs WS4
3+ ward vs WS2
2+ ward vs WS1

God forbid you take lore of light and boost their WS to 10.

Swordmasters are fine as is. They make excellent supporting and flanking hammers while white lions are big block hammers and phoenix guard are anvils.

-Matt

Agree way to much to give them anything else (especially more attacks, cant quite believe I am hearing that), as they are swordmasters are fine at what they do, you just have to know how to run them. Yes they are vulnerable to shooting and magic missiles but this is their drawback as in CC they can chew through anything they come across almost. Coming from another HE player you just need to give them enough support (ward save from spells and such) to keep them alive, also running them MSU helps alot as well as x7 in a group could do horrific damage even to enemy horde units. The way I look @ them compared to the other special choices for High Elves:

-Swordmasters: Super Offensive Unit, can rally bring the pain in CC.

-White Lions: Middle of the road unit, good save vs shooting and good S in CC.

-Phoenix Guard: Super Defensive Unit, one of if not the best bunker/anvil unit in the game.

Maybe then at least a 5+ ward parry against any lower WS, and a 6+ against shooting?

The only reason I see to take these guys is if you bought IOB or a bunch of IOB sets/trades, like I did.

If I didn't, WL are much better in terms of killing large things, grinding combat due to stubborn, and can be made just as killy with magic, but they don't NEED it like SM do.

WS6 isn't all that great anyway. oh you hit on 3's, big deal, EVERYTHING else even peasants hit you on 4's, 50% of the time.

Swordmasters should have at LEAST a 6+ parry save BASE, they're swordmasters, wtf do you take them for, the ONE extra attack?

One extra attack isn't worth their inadequacies, any other special unit can be made better than them easily with magic, but they're the only special we have that NEEDS it or will fall over to a sneeze otherwise, and a 15 point sneeze at that.

TL;DR

I believe a parry save or a lower price would be the bees knees. Hell lower prices for our entire book please.

for example, reavers vs outriders, same cost if you give them bows, but 1 shot each at s3 while outriders get 3 at s4 with AP.

BronzeJon wrote:Maybe then at least a 5+ ward parry against any lower WS, and a 6+ against shooting?

The only reason I see to take these guys is if you bought IOB or a bunch of IOB sets/trades, like I did.

If I didn't, WL are much better in terms of killing large things, grinding combat due to stubborn, and can be made just as killy with magic, but they don't NEED it like SM do.

WS6 isn't all that great anyway. oh you hit on 3's, big deal, EVERYTHING else even peasants hit you on 4's, 50% of the time.

Swordmasters should have at LEAST a 6+ parry save BASE, they're swordmasters, wtf do you take them for, the ONE extra attack?

One extra attack isn't worth their inadequacies, any other special unit can be made better than them easily with magic, but they're the only special we have that NEEDS it or will fall over to a sneeze otherwise, and a 15 point sneeze at that.

Swordmasters are there to help HE's take on horde armies and units. As mentioned above even running a small unit of them you can still do the damage output of a much larger unit of guys. Yes they only have x1 extra attack but that extra attack adds up quickly especially if your run a unit of x7 with a champion. To many people x15 S5 attacks compared to x8 S6 is much better and with their WS are hitting everyone on 3's and against almost everyone are getting re-rolls to hit, out of that many attacks if I didnt wound with @ least 11 or 12 I would be very surprised. Yes they are squishy but that is the drawback for them being able to munch through larger units with ease.

And I completely disagree with the other units being made better with magic, Swordmasters benefit from it just as much if not better in some cases. Have you ever thrown Mindrazor on a unit of them and watched as S8 attacks tear apart and arachnarok spider? Shield of Saphery gives them a 5+ ward save which they need more then other units and with Lore of Life you can give them up to +4 toughness if you really wanted to. The most I would even consider giving swordmasters is a possible -1 modifier to hit penalty against shooting attacks as it would make sense for their centuries of training that they could dodge around such things OR a 6+ parry save in CC because of their skill, which would be nice but overall I see no point in changing them, you just have to know how to use them.

Dude, stop whining, seriously. Swordmasters are already brutal in CC, and I have seen these guys destroy my Empire Halberds and my Greatswords before easily, so no they do not need an offensive boost at all. A +1 to hit for every WS they are higher then the opponent? That would make them ridiculously OP. And there is a reason why Swordmasters are targeted by shooting on mate, they can go toe-to-toe and do a ton of damage to a lot of Elite units out there, so its no surprise why they are targeted so your just going to have to deal with it. I find it hilarious that someone thinks Swordmasters need to become even more brutal then they already are. Oh and they are all already rerolling to hit AND get ASF with 2x WS6, S5 attacks so yeah they really need a boost .

Swordmasters are fine. They hit like nothing else in the game, so much so that small units of 10 to 14 can slice through large units, and working in combination multiple small units of Swordmasters can slice through pretty decent units in a single turn.

There is an argument to be made that WS doesn't do much. GW knows this, it's why units that were originally just given good WS and assumed that'd be good enough have been handed more and more special rules over the edition cycles, like extra attacks, ASF for elves, and now rerolls to hit on top of all that. There'd be a pretty good argument to dump all those special rules for all those units and go back to the original ruleset, that gave more extreme to hit numbers for higher and lower WS.

But picking out one unit that already works pretty well and giving it special rules just because it'd be nice for WS to mean more isn't really the way to go about things.

awful Idea

why take a unit that is already very very good and make them just plain unstoppable.

Also I dont see how a guy is supposed to parry bullets and arrows with his enormous great sword

Exergy wrote:awful Idea

why take a unit that is already very very good and make them just plain unstoppable.

Also I dont see how a guy is supposed to parry bullets and arrows with his enormous great sword

The same way they did it in previous editions?

A while ago I suggested that Swordmasters should choose to either get two attacks as normal, or one attack and a 5+ Parry ward save.

5+ is about right, any more and they compete with Phoenix Guard in their specialist role, any less and they lose out too much to White Lions.

Orlanth wrote:A while ago I suggested that Swordmasters should choose to either get two attacks as normal, or one attack and a 5+ Parry ward save.

5+ is about right, any more and they compete with Phoenix Guard in their specialist role, any less and they lose out too much to White Lions.

IMO, 1 attack at WS6, S5 with 5+ parry competes too much with phoenix guard.
If anything, phoenix guard should go to 4+ armor, and white lions should lose ASF. Don't really need ASF with built in stubborn.

-Matt

The difference a unit of WS3 models has when attacking anything with WS4-6 means nothing, as you still hit on 4's, and only against WS7 do you hit on 5's.

I think at LEAST a 6+ parry save against melee and shooting should be adequate without breaking them.

BronzeJon wrote:The difference a unit of WS3 models has when attacking anything with WS4-6 means nothing, as you still hit on 4's, and only against WS7 do you hit on 5's.

I think at LEAST a 6+ parry save against melee and shooting should be adequate without breaking them.

Sword masters hit other armies elites, and a lot of their heroes on 3's.
Ask a bruiser how 'useless' the swordmasters weapon skill is.

Swordmasters are supposed to be pure offense. They survive by butchering the enemy before the enemy swings. In that role, they excel.



-Matt

I think you may just not be using them effectively.