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So I understand that Mind Shackle Scarabs can make the affected model swing on himself/his unit however what happens if the model has two different weapons, power weapon/power fist (like Calgar)? Does the controlling player state what he is using when he assaults then rolls scarabs or does the Necron player get to choose the weapon? How about for a Techmarine? A Techmarine can have normal attacks (or power weapon/Thunderhammer if he upgrades) and he also has 2 initiative 1 str 8 servo harness attacks. What weapon can the Necron player make you attack with? The Techmarine seems to be the most confusing but it would be nice to know (especially because the servo arms are 'extra' attacks at the end, they do not make all of his 'normal' attacks power weapon hits, and if scarabs can work on the servo arms the Necron player could potentially get 3 servo arm hits to the Techmarines normal 2 -.-).

If I recall correctly the owning player chooses what weapons to use.

However the techmarine as his normal attacks and the servo attacks as well, the servo attacks are a special rule.

The controller of the mindshakle scarabs chooses if their is a choice. Necron codex page 81

Jstncloud wrote:So I understand that Mind Shackle Scarabs can make the affected model swing on himself/his unit however what happens if the model has two different weapons, power weapon/power fist (like Calgar)? Does the controlling player state what he is using when he assaults then rolls scarabs or does the Necron player get to choose the weapon?

The Necron player gets to choose. See page 81, Codex: Necrons.

Jstncloud wrote:How about for a Techmarine? A Techmarine can have normal attacks (or power weapon/Thunderhammer if he upgrades) and he also has 2 initiative 1 str 8 servo harness attacks. What weapon can the Necron player make you attack with? The Techmarine seems to be the most confusing but it would be nice to know (especially because the servo arms are 'extra' attacks at the end, they do not make all of his 'normal' attacks power weapon hits, and if scarabs can work on the servo arms the Necron player could potentially get 3 servo arm hits to the Techmarines normal 2 -.-).

The model that is affected by Mindshackle Scarabs inflicts D3 hits on his own unit instead of attacking normally. The Servo-arm attacks are part of the Techmarines normal close combat attacks, meaning normally he gets to make them. So, it would be one of the choices the Necron player can choose from to be the D3 hits the Techmarine makes on his unit.

I disagree, TBW, the MS D3 hits replace the normal attacks. Are Servo-arm attacks normal attacks?

Happyjew wrote:Are Servo-arm attacks normal attacks?

For Techmarines? Yes.

Hmmm well if it replaces normal attacks then it works for power swords, power fists, ect.

But the servo arms are wargear that give a rule that allow for an extra close combat attack. I wouldn't call it a normal attack.

juraigamer wrote:Hmmm well if it replaces normal attacks then it works for power swords, power fists, ect.

But the servo arms are wargear that give a rule that allow for an extra close combat attack. I wouldn't call it a normal attack.

That is how I felt seeing as they were 2 attacks made after his normal attacks. If he could choose to attack normally OR with the servo harness I'd say the Necrons could choose, but as it is states it is not his 'normal.' My only example would be Calgar who has a power weapon AND power fists, he has to choose which he uses in assaults so the Necron player would therefore make the choice as well.

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

A Techmarine does not get to choose to use it's Servo-arm. When they make close combat attacks, the Servo-arm is part of it. Therefore, it is part of the normal close combat attacks of a Techmarine.

Ah, but his Servo arm attacks aren't part of the normal sequence, as the model is basically getting to swing at two different initiatives in melee.

I'll argue that the models normal attacks, based on his profile and equipped weapons can be directed, while the servo arm has a mind of it's own and does what the owning player says, provided his techmarine is still around at the time.

Your argument would be fine if we were talking about the DE archon upgrade, the djinn blade, which says that the bearer makes two bonus attacks of every round of combat, while the servo harness states that the model makes a single extra CC attack, made separately at (the servo arm's profile)

Since you can split attacks from single models, and that the servo arm acts on it's own, it's still controlled by the models owner.

juraigamer wrote:Ah, but his Servo arm attacks aren't part of the normal sequence, as the model is basically getting to swing at two different initiatives in melee.

I'll argue that the models normal attacks, based on his profile and equipped weapons can be directed, while the servo arm has a mind of it's own and does what the owning player says, provided his techmarine is still around at the time.

Your argument would be fine if we were talking about the DE archon upgrade, the djinn blade, which says that the bearer makes two bonus attacks of every round of combat, while the servo harness states that the model makes a single extra CC attack, made separately at (the servo arm's profile)

Since you can split attacks from single models, and that the servo arm acts on it's own, it's still controlled by the models owner.

My question would be then, if the techmarine fails mind shackle would his servo arms still go off even though his normal attacks did not?

Question has been submitted to INAT Submission for decision.

Happyjew wrote:Question has been submitted to INAT Submission for decision.

I look forward to their response. Please keep us updated.

juraigamer wrote:Ah, but his Servo arm attacks aren't part of the normal sequence, as the model is basically getting to swing at two different initiatives in melee.

old Zogwort also attacks at 2 different initiative, so if old Zogwort is MSS does he still get his Nest of Vipers, even though his "Normal" attacks are at i2(3)

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Ah, but his Servo arm attacks aren't part of the normal sequence, as the model is basically getting to swing at two different initiatives in melee.

old Zogwort also attacks at 2 different initiative, so if old Zogwort is MSS does he still get his Nest of Vipers, even though his "Normal" attacks are at i2(3)

That is definitely interesting.

Logan can also attack at different I

To say that attacking at different I means they are not normal attacks seems a bit of a reach - tricky one to decide however.

@Jstncloud

The way I see it, the attack/weapon profile not chosen, becomes unused, as per the last line under the MSS rules in the codex. I quote,

"If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck."

With emphasis on that in italics, I believe that if one using MSS on a Techmarine(or any other model with separately attacking weapons) were to choose the higher Int. weapon, then the Servo-Arm attacks would not happen at all. My interpretation at least.

Perhaps if the MSS user could choose to use the Servo-Arm instead, the other weapon would be skipped as well?

MSS do infact "bury into the victim's mind and bypass cerebral functions"...albeit fluffily

Gorandius wrote:With emphasis on that in italics, I believe that if one using MSS on a Techmarine(or any other model with separately attacking weapons) were to choose the higher Int. weapon, then the Servo-Arm attacks would not happen at all. My interpretation at least.

This is very clear. It's not, "all blows by that model in that round", it's "all blows in that round".

Gorandius wrote:Perhaps if the MSS user could choose to use the Servo-Arm instead, the other weapon would be skipped as well?

It seems from the MSS rule wording that the Necron player would have to choose one or the other, as the MSS effect is lumped together under "D3 hits", not separate attacks.

Randall Turner wrote:

Gorandius wrote:With emphasis on that in italics, I believe that if one using MSS on a Techmarine(or any other model with separately attacking weapons) were to choose the higher Int. weapon, then the Servo-Arm attacks would not happen at all. My interpretation at least.

This is very clear. It's not, "all blows by that model in that round", it's "all blows in that round".

Gorandius wrote:Perhaps if the MSS user could choose to use the Servo-Arm instead, the other weapon would be skipped as well?

It seems from the MSS rule wording that the Necron player would have to choose one or the other, as the MSS effect is lumped together under "D3 hits", not separate attacks.

Gorandius wrote:@Jstncloud

The way I see it, the attack/weapon profile not chosen, becomes unused, as per the last line under the MSS rules in the codex. I quote,

"If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck."

With emphasis on that in italics, I believe that if one using MSS on a Techmarine(or any other model with separately attacking weapons) were to choose the higher Int. weapon, then the Servo-Arm attacks would not happen at all. My interpretation at least.

Perhaps if the MSS user could choose to use the Servo-Arm instead, the other weapon would be skipped as well?

MSS do infact "bury into the victim's mind and bypass cerebral functions"...albeit fluffily

My only problem is that the Servo arms are special attacks granted from gear, at this point it is like the Necron player is choosing between two models, not two weapons. Calgar can swing with his power weapon or his power fists, ok choose one, the Techmarine 'has' to swing with what he is holding, the servo arms are not weapons that he can choose to swing/not swing as Calgar can.

The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

Lordhat wrote:The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

I think we're talking about the Servo-arm here, Lordhat.

Randall Turner wrote:

Lordhat wrote:The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

I think we're talking about the Servo-arm here, Lordhat.

We are, which the Servo-harness provides two of. It is not a weapon that the Techmarine chooses to swing in lieu of his normal weapon (like the Calgar case I presented).

Jstncloud wrote:My only problem is that the Servo arms are special attacks granted from gear...[snip]

All Special Weapon attacks are special attacks granted from gear. A Servo-arm is no different then any other Special Close Combat Weapon; it modifies or gives special rules in close combat.

Jstncloud wrote:[snip]...at this point it is like the Necron player is choosing between two models, not two weapons.

But, it is just one model with two different weapons.

Jstncloud wrote:Calgar can swing with his power weapon or his power fists, ok choose one, the Techmarine 'has' to swing with what he is holding, the servo arms are not weapons that he can choose to swing/not swing as Calgar can.

Again, a Techmarine has no choice but to attack with its Servo-arm, just like any other model with a Special Close Combat Attack. It must be used. A Servo-arm just has a special rule that allows it to be used in conjunction with other Special Close Combat Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lordhat wrote:The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

A Servo-arm can be "...put to use as a weapon.", page 71, Codex: Space Marine.

Jstncloud wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:

Lordhat wrote:The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

I think we're talking about the Servo-arm here, Lordhat.

We are, which the Servo-harness provides two of. It is not a weapon that the Techmarine chooses to swing in lieu of his normal weapon (like the Calgar case I presented).

At the risk of digressing a bit, I'm looking at Techmarine rules on page 32 of the GK codex, two items of wargear there, "servo-harness" which provides a couple of shooty bits, and "servo-arm" which provides a close combat attack. Separate wargear. We're looking at the same thing there? No stress.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ahh, same thingie, different codex, slightly different wording.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:My only problem is that the Servo arms are special attacks granted from gear...[snip]

All Special Weapon attacks are special attacks granted from gear. A Servo-arm is no different then any other Special Close Combat Weapon; it modifies or gives special rules in close combat.

Jstncloud wrote:[snip]...at this point it is like the Necron player is choosing between two models, not two weapons.

But, it is just one model with two different weapons.

Jstncloud wrote:Calgar can swing with his power weapon or his power fists, ok choose one, the Techmarine 'has' to swing with what he is holding, the servo arms are not weapons that he can choose to swing/not swing as Calgar can.

Again, a Techmarine has no choice but to attack with its Servo-arm, just like any other model with a Special Close Combat Attack. It must be used. A Servo-arm just has a special rule that allows it to be used in conjunction with other Special Close Combat Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lordhat wrote:The Servo-Harness attacks are not able to be used by a model under the effects of MSS. As Jstn states the Servo-harness is not a close combat weapon, and therefor is not an option to choose from while deciding what attacks to make.

A Servo-arm can be "...put to use as a weapon.", page 71, Codex: Space Marine.

Then I guess we can chalk this up as another nail in the OP coffin for Necron, my techmarine could hit my squad with d3 servo arm hits, which means there is a 33% chance for two hits (as normal) and a 33% chance that he will actually hit my squad with more servo attacks than he would have been able to make regardless.

I look forward to what the INAT stuff rules in regards to this, I probably wont be happy but hey who cares about balance right.

Jstncloud wrote:Then I guess we can chalk this up as another nail in the OP coffin for Necron, my techmarine could hit my squad with d3 servo arm hits, which means there is a 33% chance for two hits (as normal) and a 33% chance that he will actually hit my squad with more servo attacks than he would have been able to make regardless.

I look forward to what the INAT stuff rules in regards to this, I probably wont be happy but hey who cares about balance right.

It's no different from any other MSS target, ie, any other "controlled" enemy gets a number of attacks completely independent of how many attacks he would normall make. It's consistent, in other words.

OP - I may be playing GK opponents too much, but I'm still leery of getting into CC w/you all. Even with the fancy bits, we're not as cost effective as a lot of you all's units (CC equipped termies etc.)

Jstncloud wrote:Then I guess we can chalk this up as another nail in the OP coffin for Necron, my techmarine could hit my squad with d3 servo arm hits, which means there is a 33% chance for two hits (as normal) and a 33% chance that he will actually hit my squad with more servo attacks than he would have been able to make regardless.

I look forward to what the INAT stuff rules in regards to this, I probably wont be happy but hey who cares about balance right.

How is this any different then a Tactical Squad Space Marine Sargent with a Powrfist? He only has two attacks, but when under Mindshackle Scarabs he could possible inflict 3 hits.

Thank you, Randall Turner, for clarifying. That just reinforces the way I interpret it then.

After all blows in that round, then?...So regardless of whether all of the blows come from the Techmarine or not, are at I4 or even at I1. That is when he returns to normal - after that assault phase has ended. This would most certainly skip any attacks he did not get to make because of failing the MSS roll. By what you clarified, meaning the Servo-Arm attacks. Which is the only point I was really trying to bring up, anyways.

I'm in agreement with TBW on this one, for the most part. The way I would play against my friends Master of the Forge, I would only ever take the power weapon attacks for the D3 roll.

I was wondering about that. At the risk of digressing (again), you figure the power weapon at s4 is better than the servo arm at s8? b/c of the lower initiative? You don't get armor saves vs. the servo arm either, ??

"These hits are resolved with victims strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties of his close combat weapons (the controllor of mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)"
Now, what some people are forgetting is that Close Combat Weapons are actually pretty finely defined in BRB (pg 42).

Servoarm (at least not according to C:GK, pg 32) is not (special) close combat weapon, but a piece of wargear.
"Each servo-arm grants a single extra close combat attack, made separately at Initiative 1 and Strength 8, ignoring armour saves."
C:SM has exactly same text (some fluff before it, but the "even put to use as a weapon" doesn't state it is a (special) close combat weapon, what is required for MSS to function.

So, no, you cannot choose to use Servo-arm attack profile with MSS, as Servo-arm is not a (special) close combat weapon, but a piece of wargear that grants extra attack at S8 I1.