To go first or second?

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**xxBlazinGhostxx**

As stated in the title, which do you think is usually the more strategically sound option?

The reason I say usually is because as with most things, it depends. Say it's DOW. If I won deployment I'd automatically choose to go second and choose to deploy nothing so that I can counter my opponent's deployment (which is usually spread out very evenly like in pitched battle) thus allowing me to focus on the weakest/most dangerous part of their army.

But say it's pitched battle and there's very little terrain in the middle of the board, I'll usually choose to go first in order to get that alpha strike.

Opinions?

**Ignatius**

It depends a lot on what my army list looks like. If I'm playing an armor and artillery list, then I like first. If I'm playing airborne and an outflanking unit heavy list, then I like second.

**Ailaros**

Go first, every time, unless you're playing an all-reserve list, in which case go second all the time.

40k isn't a complicated enough game that reacting to your opponent's deployment doesn't really mean much, as it's unlikely there's going to be some sort of mythic serious error that you're going to be able to actually exploit. Likewise, getting to move second onto objectives at the end isn't much - if you're going to make a late-game charge for an objective, your opponent will see it coming and react accordingly.

Meanwhile, applying your killing power first is huge. In the long-range scenario, if you are able to kill some of your opponent's units turn 1, before they even get a shot off, those units are dead weight to your opponent. I mean, if you're playing an 1850 point game and your alpha strike kills off 350 points of it, then it's exactly the same as if your opponent had brought a 1500 point list to an 1850 point game.

Likewise, being first on the move means you get shorter ranged weapons in faster with less shooting at you, and makes you much more guaranteed to get a volley off before your opponent does, and if you're a big assault guy, spending one fewer turns weathering your opponent's counterfire reduces your casualties by 33%-50%, which is pretty big.

Unless you have some specific sneakiness, always go first.

**dajobe**

As an IG player who rarely puts things in reserves, I almost need to go first, because most armies charge me, which means that if i go first then i usually have 3 turns of shooting before they reach me whereas if i go second i only get 2...

**DarthSpader**

I like going second. It. Allows me to read and react to his deployment, and plan a more focused attack. It also gives me the last movement phase of the game, wich can be critical in objective games. I also tend to reserve everything, since it allows me to "bait" enemy's into the center, primed for a counter strike. Plus it denies things like imotekhs lightning. However if your a slower army or require. Stationary units to make the best use of shooting, then go first. However I find that if I need a first turn I. Often loose the roll and end up second, or I get init stolen. So I always plan for second turn, with a backup plan in case I have to go first.

**Lordhat**

Ailaros wrote:Go first, every time, unless you're playing an all-reserve list, in which case go second all the time.

40k isn't a complicated enough game that reacting to your opponent's deployment doesn't really mean much, as it's unlikely there's going to be some sort of mythic serious error that you're going to be able to actually exploit. Likewise, getting to move second onto objectives at the end isn't much - if you're going to make a late-game charge for an objective, your opponent will see it coming and react accordingly.

I almost always opt to go second. Because deployment DOES count, whether the game is complicated or not.

your alpha strike kills off 350 points of it, then it's exactly the same as if your opponent had brought a 1500 point list to an 1850 point game.

Interesting statement, and I see the point even if it's not exactly the same.

Unless you have some specific sneakiness, always go first.

Unless you prefer to go second.

**BeefCakeSoup**

All reserves, then I opt to go second.

I do this everytime with my Dark Eldar and it works very well for me. I basically let my opponent deploy then pick a part of his army to section off and destroy. Usually opposite a slog heavy side. This in turn compensates for poor reserve rolls and/or him having a larger model count army than me. I usually do quite well, but it does take a lot of getting used too, and you always have to have a plan for which side you are going to hit.

Edit: On that note, Night Shields are a VERY important part of my vehicle kit. It literally buys me an extra turn of suppressing fire against the half or flank of the army I'm trying to put down.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Depends entirely upon your army.

At 1,500, my IG sets up on the table. I prefer to go first.

At 2,000, it's 100% null deployment. I deploy absolutely nothing. I prefer to go second, but don't really care either way.

My CSM depends heavily upon going first because ALL of the firepower is in 9 T4 W2 models. Weak.

Against Eldar with lots of skimmers, I specifically prefer to go second. I've seen the 24" tank shock move from objective to objective too many times...sometimes there's no reaction that will do aside from letting the thing move, and then shooting it up. It will stay out of range until absolutely necessary, and there are other targets to consider. In this case, I definitely prefer to go second.

**Ailaros**

Lordhat wrote:I almost always opt to go second. Because deployment DOES count, whether the game is complicated or not.

Deplopyment matters, but deployment is so easy that it's not challenging to nullify your opponent's free ability to react to you by just deploying properly in the first place.

I've played enough games where my opponent just deploys in a blob in the center (or slightly off center for better lanes of fire), wherein there is absolutely nothing you can do with your deployment to exploit weaknesses, because those weaknesses just aren't there. If a 12-year-old can figure out how to castle (which happened in one of the games I played), then anyone can figure out how to deploy first in such a way where your opponent gains no appreciable benefit from being able to deploy second.

In fact, I've actually had the other side of this to be true - there are times where I've deployed first in such a way where it suckered my opponents into making mistakes in their own deployment because they were overreacting to how I'd put my minis down.

**Randall Turner**

Ailaros wrote:Unless you have some specific sneakiness, always go first.

DarthSpader wrote:I like going second. ... Plus it denies things like imotekhs lightning.

Always include Imotekh in the army, and then it gets complicated - either way, there isn't going to be much "Alpha Striking" going on with Night Fight automatically in effect. (Unless the Necron player decides it's worth burning a pulsetek for a turn of "daylight" vs. "lightning".)

Imotekh gives you a 50/50 shot at stealing the initiative anyway, so if you win the initiative die roll, you probably want to choose to go second, watch the enemy's setup, then decide whether you want to try to "steal". If he puts a lot on the board, steal and let 'em eat flaming justice for an extra turn. If he reserves like Darth suggests, make him go first so he will have to decide sooner whether he gets his targets on the board.

If you lose the initiative roll, and the opponent decides to go second, actually the worst case as he'll usually follow up (again as Darth mentions) with a "sparse" setup.

Imotekh Necrons are odd.

**KplKeegan**

My Mech Tau usually start the board Reserved or opt to go second, allowing the enemy to run into range willingly before I pop around corners and start blasting their transports to fine, mealy bits. My Drop Guard always stay in reserve, hence, being Drop Guard. My Mech/Hybrid Guard always goes first when they can. Their strength is having an un-touched, Alpha Strike against units that seem impervious at range (Land Raiders), so my Vanquishers always have something to drop first turn.

**Lordhat**

EDIT NM I'm an idiot.

**DarthSpader**

I like seeing how an enemy deploys. It allows me to avoid his long range stuff, and focus on one aspect. If he lines up across his deployment zone edge to edge, I know to deploy or come in from reserve all on one side, putting my whole force on a fraction of his.if he bunches in the corner, I come at him from multiple angles. Plus having that last turn lets me play for a last turn win if I need to. If I'm playing KP and need to get. Few, I can target weaker units and finish them off for a win. Objectives, I go for the last turn grab.... And so on.

Going first, you almost Need the alpha strike to wreck his more valuable or dangerous units, otherwise your in trouble. And if you go first and the other side full reserves, alpha strike is now his. If you redeploy, he changes his arrival points. If you advance, your risking those units getting killed. If you stay put, it allows him to strike where he wishes. It's pretty much loose loose. All the advantage goes to the reserve or second turn army.

The only time I would take first and deploy, is if I had a long range force of heavy weapons that needed to remain stationary. Such as a IG gun line. And even then, I would rather deploy second, so I can see where the fire lines will be, and deploy in according cover to weather the other guys alpha strike

**lunarman**

Ailaros wrote:
Lordhat wrote:I almost always opt to go second. Because deployment DOES count, whether the game is complicated or not.

Deplopyment matters, but deployment is so easy that it's not challenging to nullify your opponent's free ability to react to you by just deploying properly in the first place.

I've played enough games where my opponent just deploys in a blob in the center (or slightly off center for better lanes of fire), wherein there is absolutely nothing you can do with your deployment to exploit weaknesses, because those weaknesses just aren't there. If a 12-year-old can figure out how to castle (which happened in one of the games I played), then anyone can figure out how to deploy first in such a way where your opponent gains no appreciable benefit from being able to deploy second.

In fact, I've actually had the other side of this to be true - there are times where I've deployed first in such a way where it suckered my opponents into making mistakes in their own deployment because they were overreacting to how I'd put my minis down.

Wow! I couldn't disagree more. The whole thing about deployment is really 100% dependant on the match up between the two armies. If you're talking about two shooty mech armies then perhaps, but there are so many types of armies nowadays that there's no way to generalise.

My army, DoA BA, has to choose whether to go first or second based on the opponent's list and the terrain on the board. If I go second the opponent's deployment will affect my plan. Some people castle against an all deep striking army, others will spread out to reduce my FnP bubbles. If they castle then they i play against their expectations by deploying on the board and running at them. Often they break their castle to come and get me, which nullifies their advantage. The problem with castling is it limits your mobility and it gives your opponent more places to find cover.

Because of the power of reacting to your opponents deployment, I am often comfortable going second. But then again, I play close combat armies so being mobile and in the right place with cover to boot is essential, and the ability to grab last turn objectives is always nice.

If I was playing a more shooty army then I can see the advantage of going first, but it's never so strong that I'd recommend it every time.

**schadenfreude**

An army needs a good solid plan for going 1st or 2nd because 50% of the time the dice give 1st turn choice to the other side.

I am a huge fan of the astropath and officer oof. The ability to full reserve with a +1 and rerolls for. The side outflaankiing units come in on gives and ooption, while the oof ruins the day of full reserving armies.

I am not a big fan of obvious deployments. I prefer to control the tempo of the game rather than wait to exploit an opponents errors that may or may not happen.

**Ailaros**

lunarman wrote:My army, DoA BA

Yes, all-reserve armies would qualify for "specific sneakiness". Certainly, no matter which army, if it's going all-reserve then it should take second turn.

For everyone else, take first turn. It's not just an advantage for long range shooty armies, it's also for short-range shooty armies and CC armies as well.

That and apart from the extra damage you inflict that trickles down over the course of the game, and the more durability your army gets, there's also...

schadenfreude wrote: I prefer to control the tempo of the game rather than wait to exploit an opponents errors that may or may not happen.

This.

**Blacksails**

I agree with Ailaros 100%. While reacting to your opponent is nice and all that, the board isn't big enough to make deployment such a huge issue. The alpha strike or ability to get closer to the enemy quicker often means more than trying to optimize your deployment to counter your opponent's. There are obviously exceptions to the rule, but for non-sneaky/droppy/outflanky armies, its more often than not better to go first.

**DarthSpader**

My venom spam de army I generally always play full reserve going second. I have yet to loose. Including multiple tournaments.

**labmouse42**

If your army can weather an opponents alpha stirke, or you have a reserve list, then going second is preferable. Otherwise, going first for the alpha strike is good.

Weathering Armies
An army like footslogging orks or SW grey hunter spam can weather the alpha strike pretty well and still have firepower to return. There are a few reasons for this. First of all, you can get cover pretty easily when your looking at the entire board, so most infantry will get their 4+ save. Secondly, anti-tank fire is a lot less effective when utilized against a 6 point ork. When playing an ork footslogger army, I would lose between 3-10 boys in the first round of shooting. While some armies are much better at dealing with horde at range, they are not common armies today.

Reserve Armies
The other option is to go with a reserve list. Another army I play is Mech'dar with Yuriel. This gives me a 3+ reserve roll on turn two, and all my vehicles can burst onto the board going 24". One of the best strengths of the reserve list is that it allows me to have less turns of return fire. By coming in a the bottom of 2, my opponent has between 3-5 turns to shoot at me. If I started on the board, he would have 5-7. This makes it harder to destroy the 10+ grav tanks I'm bringing to the table.

Reserve armies also get the alpha strike, as they can shoot on the turn they move in. They also get an extra turn of shooting, as they can start shooting as soon as the bottom of 2, where their opponent can only start shooting at the top of 3.

Reserve armies also counter the first 2 turns of night fighting necrons. This helps when they bring the stormlord. Reserve armies also can come in on the table edge during spearhead, which can take people by suprise. Reserve armies also can come in where they want on the board edge, allowing you to take advantage of poor enemy deployment.

Going Second
So why go second? Well, it gives a considerable advantage on objective missions. It allows you to move to objectives when your opponent cannot respond.
In timed games it gives another strong advantage. Generally you know when your going to have 1 turn left to play, such as when there is 20 minutes left before the round is called. This lets you objective contest/grab knowing when you cannot be countered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthSpader wrote:My venom spam de army I generally always play full reserve going second. I have yet to loose. Including multiple tournaments.

You have never lost a game? I bow to your dice, as mine can have games were they are not hot and I lose.