Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/04/28 01:44:55
Subject: 1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
Had a game against Michael's Chaos Space Marines. Due to time constraints, we played at 1500 instead of my usual 2K. That's ok as it let's me see how well my competitive necrons scale down in size. I've played against Michael's chaos marines once before and that was in a 2-vs-2 game which, unfortunately, we didn't get to finish because I had to leave. He is a solid player with good knowledge about the rules, and he plays necrons as well.
I must apologize about the condition of my necrons. Ever since my last game a few months back, I haven't really spent any time working on my necrons. As a result, I am still using tyranid proxies for some of my wraiths. Now I am in the curious situation of "do I want to continue working on my converted wraiths, or should I just wait for the new models that are coming out real soon?" Hmmm....
For this report, I've changed the style slightly. I've decided to put the report in Spoilers to make the report look a lot cleaner. Let me know what you guys think. Keep the spoilers or drop them....
Necrons: Now this is a scaled-down version of my Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) necrons. But at 1500, I'd like to think of it more as my Mini Threat Overload crons. What is MTO necrons, you ask?
It's one thing when you have to deal with 1 or 2 main threats at a time. It's something else when you have to deal with 4 - 2 wraith units and 2 command barges. And all these threats are really, really fast. I'm talking about guaranteed in-your-face assault on turn 2. The name of the game is to apply a lot of pressure on the opponent and force him to play defensively, which is what I am banking on. If he does so, I have a huge advantage in objectives-based games as I will gain the positional advantage (another phrase I like to coin as Positional Dominance). If not, then it will be an interesting battle. In a nutshell, the strategy is to overload your opponent with more threats than he can handle.
Question is, are my fast units mitigated by Lash and the lack of psychic defense? We shall find out.
By the ways, I would say that I have the experience advantage in this matchup. I've played against dual lash many times, while I doubt my opponent has ever played against a necron army the likes of mine. I'm predicting a possible tabling of the Chaos forces by no later than Turn 5.
Chaos Space Marines: While I have a very dangerous necron army, Michael's army is no pushover either. He's got all the tools to take on my army. I have no psychic defense against his powers. He's got 6 obliterators that can probably take down at least 1 command barge per turn or rain plasma death on my lashed wraiths. My army has problems against plaguemarines due to T5 and FNP. He's got a lot of shots with his sonic blaster noise marines (heavy 3 or assault 2) and lastly, his berserkers put out enough attacks to seriously hurt my wraiths if they can get the charge off.
With all those "strengths", why would I be so confident that I can dominate my opponent's army? Because if you've never played against my army build before, then you will most likely under-estimate their speed and effectiveness as an army. Plus, I've got 2 solar pulses to screw with his shooting. The first time you play against them, it is usually quite a learning experience....and after you gain experience playing against them, you'll still have trouble trying to stop them. They are just that good in my honest opinion.
Chaos deployment. Sonic marines are on the 2nd floor of the ruins, plaguemarines in the rhino to my opponent's right and berserkers with sorcerer in the rhino to his left.
Obliterators are in the ruins way in the back.
My deployment. Tyranid proxies are the non-whip coil wraiths.
My opponent moves his berserkers up 6" only. I warned him about night-fight but I guess he thought cover was more important. Well, that and the fact that he probably didn't want to get assaulted on my Turn 1.
He then fails to see/searchlight anything.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
I put my pedal to the metal and have 2 command barges up in his face, followed closely behind by my wraiths. 1 unit of wraiths hide under the bridge to try to stay out of LOS.
Immortals then shuffle around.
Eldritch lances immobilize the plague rhino and shakes the berserker rhino.
No assault yet for my necrons.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
My Solar Pulse makes it night-fight again.
His Lash Prince goes after my immortals.
1 unit of oblits move down the ruins.
The immobilized rhino searchlights one of my command barges. However, his oblits fail to do anything to it no thanks to cover.
Daemon Prince than lashes the immortals towards him.
I make a mistake here. I forgot that blastmasters are S8 blasts as opposed to just missile launchers. Anyways, I group up my wraiths and his blast hits 3 guys. Fortunately for me, he rolls poorly for his sonic blasters (32 S4 shots!) and with wound allocation shenanigans (allocating the insta-killing missiles onto the same model), I only lose 2 wraiths, with a 3rd taking 1 Wound.
His Prince then assaults.
He kills 3, including 1 cryptek, and takes 1W in return. I then pass morale and 1 immortal gets back up.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Here comes the pain.
Command barges fly over his transports. I fail to hit the plaguemarine rhino but immobilize the berserker rhino. One of the Overlords disembark (the one who flew over the plague rhino). The other barge moved flat-out.
4-man wraiths go after his Lash Prince. 6-man wraiths go after his noise marines.
Immortals advance once more.
Then it's off to assault. I assault his DP and his noise marines.
Overlord auto-hits the immobilized rhino....
Daemon Prince kills 3 immortals (including the cryptek). My wraiths only put 2W on his DP (1W remaining). Immortals would fail morale and break off, unable to regroup later.
Chaos: 1, Necrons: 0
I believe my wraiths kill off all but 3 noise marines after No Retreat saves.
Overlord wrecks the plague rhino.
Chaos: 1, Necrons: 1
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Berserkers disembark and prepare to put a world of hurt onto my Overlord.
Plaguemarines go to help out the noise marines
Sorcerer lashes my Overlord onto the wreck. Oblits then put 6 lascannons into him, taking him down to just 1W remaining.
Berserkers and plaguemarines then assault. Berserkers pass their 4 dangerous terrain tests.
Overlord mindshackles one of his regular berserkers, who then kill 2 of his own comrades (after his sorcerer fails to kill my Overlord).
Berserkers then dole out an insane amount of attacks...of which only 6 of them wounds. As expected, I fail 1 of the 6 2+ saves and my Overlord falls....
....only to get back up again. Muhahahahahaha....
In the other combat, I kill 2 of the noise marines (1 left) and I believe 1 or 2 plague marines. I believe he kills 1 wraith, though his Power Fist misses completely.
My wraiths finally finish off his Lash Prince.
Chaos: 1, Necrons: 2
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
My other command barge flies 12" over and sweeps the berserkers. I kill 2 of them, including the Power Fist (because I rolled a 6 to hit). The Overlord then disembarks.
The unit of 4-wraiths go to help out the other wraiths against the plaguemarines.
Immortals advance but are just about half an inch away from lancing the oblits.
Both Overlords then assault. I believe his berserkers pass 1 and fail 1 mindshackle tests.
He manages to kill off the wounded Overlord, but I reduce the squad to just 2 berserkers and the sorcerer left.
My Overlord would not be getting back up this time.
Chaos: 2, Necrons: 2
Finally, the wraiths join into the wraith-noise-marine-plaguemarine scrimmage. I kill off his noise marine and all but 2-3 plaguemarines. I believe he kills another 1 wraith.
Chaos: 2, Necrons: 3
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
Obliterators shoot down my command barge. His other obliterators can only see my immortals and shoot at them but I make my cover saves.
Chaos: 3, Necrons: 3
Mindshackle kills off 1 berserker. My Overlord then puts 2W on his sorcerer and No Retreat finishes off the last berserker.
Chaos: 3, Necrons: 4
Lastly, the wraiths kill off his plaguemarines.
Chaos: 3, Necrons: 5
He only has his 2 units of obliterators left. Next turn, I should be able to kill off his sorcerer and immobilized rhino for another 2KP's. He will not be able to catch up so we call it at this point.
Victory to the Metallic Dead!!!
Necrons 4
Chaos 5
Necrons 5
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/04/28 16:18:39
I like the spoiler tag for each individual update, but I keep going back and clicking them down off as I go...I think it is the ocd.
So far it looks pretty good for you overall, you have some tough choices to make with the DP nearby and then wraiths in range to hit his lines.
I am thinking sweep the rhinos, bring up the wraiths and charge the Berserkers if possible with wraiths while the noise marines get eaten by the other squad. If you blow the Plague Rhino, throw a Lord into that unit and his entire army is tied up. The other lord goes over to make the DP punch himself if possible...
The only problem I'm seeing with the Spoiler tags is that when you open them, if your screen resolution is not big enough, you have to scroll left and right to read the text. Otherwise, I like this format as well.
Actually, my choices are pretty easy. Wraiths should kill DP's and most monstrous creatures fairly easily. Command barges should always be either going flat-out to sweep something or sweeping and then disembarking and assaulting. What I plan to do is to tie up units with my Overlords and then use the wraiths as backup.
But you're right, the objective is to tie up his units. I think I will win the war of attrition as long as I don't let his berserkers charge me.
I really like your list... as a matter of fact, it could potentially be stronger. I tallied up the points of your list and got a total of only 1410 points! Did I miss something or did you forget to mention a unit or upgrade in your list? That's enough points left over to bring an Annihilation barge!
Or, if you are willing to go with just 5 wraiths in each unit, you could add another min sized unit of Immortals with 2 more Destruct techs... so 8 total lances in the army!
3,000+ 3,000+ 3,000+ 1500
2012/04/28 16:17:08
Subject: 1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
Oops! You're right. I actually had phase shifters for both lords which I forget to write down on my list. I'll go back and edit them. One of the reasons why lords are so scary is that they are supposed to be almost indestructible with 2+/3++, at least in the eyes of my opponents. Otherwise, without the 3++, enemy assault units just don't really fear them.
Of course you can get rid of some of the Overlord upgrades to get more shooting in the list if you like. It's all just a matter of preference. In this case, I chose to have strong, resilient assault units with just several support units for a firebase.
If I had really wanted to optimize it more for shooting, I probably would have gone like this:
Overlord w/warscythe on CCB - 180
Overlord w/warscythe on CCB - 180
If only I could get a phase shifter on a destroyer lord
As for the spoiler tags... I like them but in the same sense dislike them.
I like them because it can help declutter a page and make it easier to load for those people out there that are still using dial-up. I dislike them because usually my pictures flow together pretty well and it makes it easier to come in and scroll down the pictures to get a good visual of what happened. Sure they can just click it then do it but its that eye catching thing about reports that decides whether someone is gonna read it or not. I might try using the spoiler tabs for the third battle especially if it is on the same page.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/28 16:38:47
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
Even if the Dlord could get a shifter, I'd still prefer the Overlord on barge due to his mobility and sweep attacks (and of course, the royal courts).
I believe the load times will still be the same. Even with dial-up, they will still be loading the pictures even though you won't see it on the surface. But if you click on one of the spoiler tabs, you can see the pictures loading behind it. The main advantage is the decluttering of the pages.
Depending on comments here, I may or may not use them again in future reports. Or I may use a mix of both.
Those barge lords are definitely one of my favorite units in the codex along with the wraiths. Unfortunately, you're going to see them as a staple of almost every competitive tournament necron list like you see psyflemans in grey knight lists (with the occasional Immotekh in some lists).
The table is a new edition to our LGS. You can find it being used in my friend's battle report as well (which I also took the idea for adding the spoilers):
He is making custom Wraiths.. If you did custom work you would know that goes slow. His opponent didnt seem to care, so why should you?
Another great report JY. I like the spoiler tags.
"I have traveled trough the Realm of Death and brought back novelty pencils"
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
the band is playing somewhere and somewhere hearts are light,and somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout but there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has struck out.
2012/04/29 03:14:09
Subject: Re:1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
Half of the wraiths are converted from Tomb King Sepulchral Stalkers. The other half are proxies.
I normally run normal warriors, but here I bumped them up to Immortals to reach the 1500pts level.
@Nicorex
Thanks!
Zid wrote:great rep JY, much prefer the new format Kinda like the idea of uber surflords, makes them far harder to down... too bad they cost so much
Yeah, I like them as well. They're not nearly as scary without the phase shifters, but the shifters will be the first to go if I want to optimize this list for more shooting.
Half of the wraiths are converted from Tomb King Sepulchral Stalkers. The other half are proxies.
I normally run normal warriors, but here I bumped them up to Immortals to reach the 1500pts level.
@Nicorex
Thanks!
Zid wrote:great rep JY, much prefer the new format Kinda like the idea of uber surflords, makes them far harder to down... too bad they cost so much
Yeah, I like them as well. They're not nearly as scary without the phase shifters, but the shifters will be the first to go if I want to optimize this list for more shooting.
Also think my issue is stuff like TWC will just spit em out (same with GK... stupid Daemonhammers!). That 3++ can only go so far!
Nice battle report and a very very brutal Necron list, what about chaging the immortals to warriors and trying to add some Anni Barges in for extra pressure?
something alike to this:
Necron Overlord, CCB, Warscythe, Semp Weave
3 Harbringers of Destruction, Solar Pulse
Necron Overlord, CCB, Warscythe, Semp Weave
3 Harbringers of Destruction, Solar Pulse
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
6 Wraiths, 3 Whipcoils
6 Wraiths, 3 Whipcoils
Annihilation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 08:25:23
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2012/04/29 14:44:18
Subject: 1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
Valek wrote:
Can you stack 2 instakill wound on a model??
You can allocate wounds however you like provided you evenly distribute them. When you remove casualties you need to remove whole models for ID first, but if there is only a single model in a wound group the point is moot.
Zid wrote: Also think my issue is stuff like TWC will just spit em out (same with GK... stupid Daemonhammers!). That 3++ can only go so far!
True, but remember, without the 3++, they will spit them out even faster. My uber-lords have been able to tarpit 5-man TH/SS termies and smaller paladin squads as well as Mephiston and others.
However, I must admit that it's hard to justify 2 phase shifters when the net savings without them can get you an annihilation barge.
Valek wrote:1 thing i saw and not sure off:
Can you stack 2 instakill wound on a model??
You most certainly can if they have different wargear. One thing to keep in mind is that ID happens when you remove models. But before that, you have to allocate wounds and then fail saves.
Thus it goes like this:
1. Allocate wounds.
In this case, I took 3x S8 wounds and 6x S4 wounds in total. I put 2x S8 on the single particle caster, 1x S8 and 3x S4 on the 2 regulars and the remaining 3x S4 on the 3 whip coils.
2. Make saves.
It isn't ID until you fail your saves. I fail the 2x S8 on the particle caster and then 1x S8 and 1x S4 on my regulars.
3. Removal of models.
Those 2x S8 kills my particle caster. The 1x S8 insta-kills an unwounded regular and the 1x S4 puts 1W on the other regular.
Nice battle report and a very very brutal Necron list, what about chaging the immortals to warriors and trying to add some Anni Barges in for extra pressure?
something alike to this:
Necron Overlord, CCB, Warscythe, Semp Weave
3 Harbringers of Destruction, Solar Pulse
Necron Overlord, CCB, Warscythe, Semp Weave
3 Harbringers of Destruction, Solar Pulse
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
6 Wraiths, 3 Whipcoils
6 Wraiths, 3 Whipcoils
Annihilation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
That is definitely a better and more balanced list than the one that I used. The reason I used my list was because 1) I wanted to try out immortals in my list, 2) I like my uber-lords and 3) I forgot to bring my annihilation barges!
calypso2ts wrote:
Valek wrote:
Can you stack 2 instakill wound on a model??
You can allocate wounds however you like provided you evenly distribute them. When you remove casualties you need to remove whole models for ID first, but if there is only a single model in a wound group the point is moot.
Absolutely correct! And thanks!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 16:15:10
Perhaps that is due to too many pictures and not the tags? It takes a while to load on my phone as well and usually, the last pictures don't load. I think there is a threshold on how many pictures can be displayed per page on cell phones.
Yeah, that is the newest table at our LGS. They did a good job on it.
I hate to say it JY2 but I am a little set back with how your opponent played his csm. Great win for you pulling off what I feel is the upset in this one. Lash CSM with berzerkers should lay into necrons pretty good. His main threat IMO is the wraiths if he can lash them and shoot them up with oblits and sonic blast then bye bye wraiths. It helped though when your immortals did a wound on the daemon prince and held him in combat. He breaks that combat and he might of gotten far enough back from the wraiths but highly unlikely. Good game and another great report. I wish i could take better pictures for mine but I am always in a hurry with my mech guard as some players slow the game down on me which you will see in one of my laters game to the extreme.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
puma713 wrote:I'm curious - how did your overlord get to stand up before the berzerkers got to consolidate?
If the berzerkers could've consolidated in a 6" bubble or so around where the lord died, he would not have been able to stand up.
I don't think they skipped it, I just think people are not aware of utilizing that trick to prevent RP/EL. That is of course a guess on my part but I have yet to read of someone consolidating intelligently after dropping one of those bastards lol
Tomb King wrote:I hate to say it JY2 but I am a little set back with how your opponent played his csm. Great win for you pulling off what I feel is the upset in this one. Lash CSM with berzerkers should lay into necrons pretty good. His main threat IMO is the wraiths if he can lash them and shoot them up with oblits and sonic blast then bye bye wraiths. It helped though when your immortals did a wound on the daemon prince and held him in combat. He breaks that combat and he might of gotten far enough back from the wraiths but highly unlikely. Good game and another great report. I wish i could take better pictures for mine but I am always in a hurry with my mech guard as some players slow the game down on me which you will see in one of my laters game to the extreme.
I agree. I also think his army has the tools to really hurt me, but he made several mistakes which hurt him IMO.
1. He deployed his oblits too far away. You just can't do that against night-fight necrons. You need to have them in the front with all the other units for support. Fighting 5 units at once is definitely much tougher for me than fighting just 3. And once locked in combat with his troops, I didn't have to worry about getting blasted by his oblits.
2. I felt that he played a little too passively. Advance his rhinos and try to searchlight my units and then next turn get ready for the counter-assault with berserkers, plaguemarines and his DP (and even his oblits had he deployed them with the rest of his force). However, I can definitely understand why he played the way he did. This was the 1st time he was playing against such an aggressive necron army and he was just being very cautious.
3. Not a knock on his playstyle, but he just under-estimated how dangerous the wraiths were and how far they can move.
With experience under his belt, I am sure that if he were to play my necrons again, he'd probably have a different strategy against them (and probably a stronger list as well).
puma713 wrote:I'm curious - how did your overlord get to stand up before the berzerkers got to consolidate?
If the berzerkers could've consolidated in a 6" bubble or so around where the lord died, he would not have been able to stand up.
Actually, he stood up after they consolidated.
Because my opponent has a necron army, I assumed he knew about EL. It seems that he didn't. Anyways, he only consolidated 3". I might have been able to come back to life safely somewhere.
Or maybe he knew but just wanted to consolidate out of dangerous terrain (the wreck) anyways. Stay on DT and it'll affect his movement and charge range next turn as well in addition to him having to take those DT tests. There's only a 1/3 chance for my Overlord to get back up. He may be taking a little gamble in this instance.
Red Corsair wrote:
puma713 wrote:I'm curious - how did your overlord get to stand up before the berzerkers got to consolidate?
If the berzerkers could've consolidated in a 6" bubble or so around where the lord died, he would not have been able to stand up.
I don't think they skipped it, I just think people are not aware of utilizing that trick to prevent RP/EL. That is of course a guess on my part but I have yet to read of someone consolidating intelligently after dropping one of those bastards lol
It could also be that he was aware but didn't want to spread out in dangerous terrain, which would've affected his movement next turn as well. Or you could be right. Anyways, as a necron player also, I thought he would know this.
bagtagger wrote:If rumors about changing the FOC over to the fantasty % system, how bad do you think that will hurt your current build for Necrons?
It may hurt it, but I don't really care. I'll just adjust my army as will a lot of people. Necrons won't be the only army affected, and wraithwing or MTO crons aren't the only competitive necron builds out there. Whatever happens, I think necrons will be fine because I believe they were designed with 6th edition already in mind.
puma713 wrote:I'm curious - how did your overlord get to stand up before the berzerkers got to consolidate?
If the berzerkers could've consolidated in a 6" bubble or so around where the lord died, he would not have been able to stand up.
Actually, he stood up after they consolidated.
Because my opponent has a necron army, I assumed he knew about EL. It seems that he didn't. Anyways, he only consolidated 3". I might have been able to come back to life safely somewhere.
Or maybe he knew but just wanted to consolidate out of dangerous terrain (the wreck) anyways. Stay on DT and it'll affect his movement and charge range next turn as well in addition to him having to take those DT tests. There's only a 1/3 chance for my Overlord to get back up. He may be taking a little gamble in this instance.
Ah, it just looked like the overlord was stood up and the zerkers hadn't budged.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
2012/05/02 18:16:11
Subject: 1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2012/05/03 01:52:57
Subject: Re:1500 Necrons vs Chaos - Competitive Dual-Overlords vs Dual Lash
I think your opponent underestimated your Wraiths. Assaulting them with a Daemon Prince isn't a smart idea. It's much better to bog them down with numbers and high volume of attacks.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
3,000+ 
1500 
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
