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Hey Dakkadakka,

I was playing at my local store last night and two questions came up. I just wanted to clarify the rules were being applied correctly.

First scenario.

I was Imperial Guard, my opponent was Tau. I deployed first, then my opponent deployed. I took my first turn and then let my opponent go.

The Tau player immediately moved three separate Devilfish 36" across the board to my side. Each Devilish passed over several units causing me to take around 13 tank shock tests.
As we were playing on a 48" by 48" table, thanks to 12" deployment there was nowhere his devilfish could not have reached on the first turn. I wish to clarify if this is correct? By the end of turn 2 guardsmen squads and 1 platoon command squad had been tank shocked out of their bastions and 6 heavy weapons teams were forced to flee off the board.

Were these all legal moves?


Second scenario:

I was watching Space Wovles play Tau. There was a character called Bjorn who was a dreadnought. He has BS6 and a twin linked lascannon.

I read in the big rule book that dice may only be re-rolled once ever.

In the case of Bjorn however, the player was stating how:

You can roll to hit on a 2+
If you miss you get to roll to hit on a 6.
Then if you miss again you get to use twin linking to hit on a 2+
If you miss you get to roll to hit on a 6.

This means that a die is potentially getting re-rolled three times.

Has their been a misinterpretation of the rules on my part?


*Update*

Third scenario from the game against the Tau player:

I passed a morale test for a tank shock and automatically hit. I roll 2d6 for a melta weapon and score a penetrating hit on the front armour. The Tau player then claimed a 3+ cover save for moving flat out and passed it... Is this another fishy move? Or is he correct this time?


Thank you very much,

Marsden

tau....

going 36?????

wait..... what?

as far as i know tau vehicle are just skimmer/tank. they arent even fast, so the maximum move is 12" i think they can take an upgrade that makes them FIRE as if they were fast.... but definitly not move more then 12". as far as i know the only thing that can move 36" is the dark eldar fighter, or jetbikes.

as for bjorn, you cant re roll a re roll unless the rule specifically states you can. i dont think bjorns says that. he would have to pick since i think the source of the reroll does not matter, only that you get one. in the case of a twin linked weapon and BS6 i would take the twin linked chance. however for single non twin linked weapons, you could use his BS reroll.

tau.... going 36.... i would LOVE to hear this guys reasoning on that one. i havent had a good laugh in a LONG time.

Re the Devilfish i think they can only move 12 inches normally. Looking at Army builder (In work so no codex) it doesn't seem to beable to go 36 inchs...

Secondly it cannot tank shock units out of bastions (Assuming you used them as intct buildings) or do you mean ruins?

Regarding the Bjorn situation i think the Twinlinked reroll already is a reroll instead of the BS reroll due to it being better.

May not be right on the second one so someone else hopefully will confirm.

Assume you're playing at the belfast GW? if so why not try playing at lisburn gaming club or another, people in them are more likely to know the rules and not pull fast ones.

Also good to see another N.I player

DarthSpader wrote:tau....

going 36?????

wait..... what?

as far as i know tau vehicle are just skimmer/tank. they arent even fast, so the maximum move is 12" i think they can take an upgrade that makes them FIRE as if they were fast.... but definitly not move more then 12". as far as i know the only thing that can move 36" is the dark eldar fighter, or jetbikes.

tau.... going 36.... i would LOVE to hear this guys reasoning on that one. i havent had a good laugh in a LONG time.

I thought something was fishy.

His justification to me was, "They are going flat out" and two other guys at the store backed him up on it. Having not played a Tau army other than my brother's I thought I must have been unaware of the rules.

Needless to say it was a complete massacre.

Turn 1 - His devilfish got on my side of the board and tank shock every infantry unit in my army on the way there except Yarrick's squad.
Turn 2 - His fire warriors and drones disembarked and blasted the hell out of everything that was fleeing.
Turn 3 - My tanks came on from reserve and managed to massacre the fire warriors with large blast templates.
Turn 4 - His railguns decimate my tanks.
Turn 5 - All I have left is my Leman Russ with 2 plasma sponsons and my Primaris Psyker.
My opponent has:
2 stealthsuit teams in the now empty bastions getting 2+ cover saves;
A team of 3 rail gun broadsides. (They have 2 wounds each and a 2+ save.)
A team of surviving fire warriors.
Commander in a battlesuit.
1 immobilised devilish.
1 fine devilfish.

It was a complete wipeout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Duce wrote:Re the Devilfish i think they can only move 12 inches normally. Looking at Army builder (In work so no codex) it doesn't seem to beable to go 36 inchs...

Secondly it cannot tank shock units out of bastions (Assuming you used them as intct buildings) or do you mean ruins?

Regarding the Bjorn situation i think the Twinlinked reroll already is a reroll instead of the BS reroll due to it being better.

May not be right on the second one so someone else hopefully will confirm.

Assume you're playing at the belfast GW? if so why not try playing at lisburn gaming club or another, people in them are more likely to know the rules and not pull fast ones.

Also good to see another N.I player

Hey, I'm actually over in Scotland at the minute studying at Uni.

Likewise, good to see another Northern Irish player!

Where is this Lisburn gaming club?

yea no.


first:

vehicles can only move 12" a turn. this is 1-6" combat speed, or 7-12" cruising speed. thats it.

FAST vehicles get an extra movement bracket "flatout" wich adds 6" to movement. skimmers that are also fast go 24"

if they have "supersonic" they can go 36" flatout.

tau vehicles are "Tank/skimmer". therefore they can only move 12" cruising speed. they dont have a flat out option, and it certainly is NOT 36". if anything it would be 24" at best.

play him again, but have the rulebook handy with the vehicle movment speeds ready. along with vehicle types. then call him out. either A: hes extremly ignorant and cant read the rules, or B: he is a blatant cheater. either way a quick refrence to the rulebook fixes both.

as for taking down his army with gaurd....

just load up a crud ton of infantry platoons and heavy weapon teams. pack in as many laz cannons and autocannons as you can fit. tanks against tau are kind of a waste, since broadsides will eat them for dinner. but feed him infantry and those broadsides are just about useless. keep nailing him from a distance with your massed ranged fire, and he should go down pretty quick. have a team of plasma or melta vets (or 3 of them) either in chimeras or valks if you have the pts, as a fast counter should he try to advance anywhere past center with his vehicles or suits. the best he can have is a 4+ invun.

broadsides are tough... but low model counts. enough autocannons at them should deal with them in short order.

your lazcannons can take down devilfish no problem

lazguns with FRFSRF should do decent against all his infantry (save suits) and plasma vets should take care of those.

the only thing to watch for is to make sure his broadsides cant see your vet transports. they will pop them fast.

anyway - that 36" thing is total BS, as was the rerolls your only ever allowed to reroll a single dice once. the second result ALWAYS stands, unless a codex specfic rule allows a second reroll... and as far as i know, no such rule exists in any of the codex.

To the 2nd question the player controlling Bjorn gets to decide which re-roll to use (BS6 or TL) but now both, somewhere in the BRB it states something along the lines of never re-roll a re-roll.

To the 3rd question. I believe vehicles only get a 4+ cover save for going flat out instead of the 3+ bikes get for turbo-boosting, but I don't think gets the save until he finished moving.

Also: marsden, what uni are you at?

You got done on all counts.

Marsden wrote:The Tau player immediately moved three separate Devilfish 36" across the board to my side. Each Devilish passed over several units causing me to take around 13 tank shock tests.
As we were playing on a 48" by 48" table, thanks to 12" deployment there was nowhere his devilfish could not have reached on the first turn. I wish to clarify if this is correct? By the end of turn 2 guardsmen squads and 1 platoon command squad had been tank shocked out of their bastions and 6 heavy weapons teams were forced to flee off the board.

As stated, Devilfish are not Fast vehicles. Even if they were, they'd only be allowed to move 24". Just because they are skimmers, doesn't mean they are Fast (though, prior to Tau, non-Fast Skimmers were pretty rare), and only a few Fast Skimmers can move 36" (all of them are in more recent codices and have a rule called "Supersonic"). See the BGB, p71 - only Skimmers that is also Fast can move 24"; cf. Codex: Dark Eldar, p46, for an example of a special kind of Fast Skimmer that can move faster.

Also as stated, if your units were inside bastions (which are buildings, see p78), then they cannot be tank shocked. Buildings, and bastions by extension, are treated the same as transports (p78); if a tank-shocking vehicle comes within 1" of an enemy vehicle then it immediately stops (p68) and so cannot possibly tank shock the unit inside.

I was watching Space Wovles play Tau. There was a character called Bjorn who was a dreadnought. He has BS6 and a twin linked lascannon.

I read in the big rule book that dice may only be re-rolled once ever.

In the case of Bjorn however, the player was stating how:

You can roll to hit on a 2+
If you miss you get to roll to hit on a 6.
Then if you miss again you get to use twin linking to hit on a 2+
If you miss you get to roll to hit on a 6.

This means that a die is potentially getting re-rolled three times.

Has their been a misinterpretation of the rules on my part?

You're right, a single die cannot ever be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll (p2). If you have BS6+ and have another source of a re-roll, then the latter one takes precedence (very explicitly stated on p18).

I passed a morale test for a tank shock and automatically hit. I roll 2d6 for a melta weapon and score a penetrating hit on the front armour. The Tau player then claimed a 3+ cover save for moving flat out and passed it... Is this another fishy move? Or is he correct this time?

No, skimmers performing a tank shock do not get their cover save for moving flat out against a Death or Glory attack (Rulebook FAQ, p6). Obviously, the Tau player would never get this cover save anyway (as the vehicle is not Fast), but even if he did, it would only be a 4+ cover save (p71). He must have been confused with the Turbo Boost rule for bikes, which does give a 3+ cover save.

Hope that clarifies everything. I tried to provide page refs for everything so you can check the actual wording out for yourself and show your opponent if need be. Let us know if there's anything else that's unclear

to your flatout cover save...."flatout cover" is only 4+, NOT 3+. bikes can get a 3+ cover from turboboosting. not vehicles.
as per the 40k general FAQ

Q: Does a skimmer that is moving flat out whilst
performing a tank shock get the 4+ obscured save
against the Death or Glory! Attack? (p71)
A: No.


so thats another case of ignorance or cheating.

Wait, how did they get 2+ coversaves in ruins (Assuming since you said coversaves ti wasn't intact bastions but ruined ones...

Cover in those is 4+ as the rulebook usually when you agreed on it, never heard of someone wanting a 2+ ruin.

Lisburn clubs down in lisburn enterprise centre, tons of players, all 18+ and they don't cheat like this.

not all GW goers are cheats but seems quite a few are loose on the rules.

First of all, thanks for your help everyone.

The page references and rule clarifications have been excellent.

Time for round 2 tonight I think... this time the big book is coming with me!

Duce wrote:Wait, how did they get 2+ coversaves in ruins (Assuming since you said coversaves ti wasn't intact bastions but ruined ones...

Cover in those is 4+ as the rulebook usually when you agreed on it, never heard of someone wanting a 2+ ruin.

There's actually a chart in the cover saves section of the book. It's not all 4+; it just so happens that the large majority of stuff you typically see on a table falls into the 4+ bracket. You could potentially be playing with something that actually gives 3+ and Go to Ground for a 2+, or have Stealth and Go to Ground in normal 4+ cover. A fairly common one is GK or SM with a Techmarine, which allows them to Reinforce one Ruin in their deployment zone (if one is present) to make it worth 3+; then combine that with Stealth on Scout camo cloaks, or from GK Shrouding.

so why does Bjorn come with BS 6 and twinlinked weapons, when that is equivalent to BS5 and twinlinked. Does he have other weapons?

He can have a plasmacannon too.

@Mannahnin, I know about the chart, sorry if wasn't clear just meant it was weird to hear a ruin classed as 2+ when usually players always call it 4+ due tot he book saying so in those charts. and considering his opponent was Tau I don't know of them getting cover enhancing bonuses.

What a mess, I be a lot of Tau players would love it if their army worked that way!

Also note, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that moved Flat Out in the movement phase (so even if he could move 36" - which he cannot - his troops are stuck in the vehicle).

calypso2ts wrote:What a mess, I be a lot of Tau players would love it if their army worked that way!

Also note, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that moved Flat Out in the movement phase (so even if he could move 36" - which he cannot - his troops are stuck in the vehicle).

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

He moved flat out in turn 1.
He disembarked in turn 2.

He didn't break that rule. =)

I know though, I'm praying the new Tau codex is not like this! XD

Marsden you got screwed. Your opponent was wrong on every count.

Lightning Shadows wrote:Marsden you got screwed. Your opponent was wrong on every count.

Ah well, I can still see the funny side of it.

Yarrick single handedly dealt around 390 points of damage, my Primaris Psyker dealt around 200 points. Both performed brilliantly that game and almost made up for being screwed over.

The main problem was that I lacked troops to hold objectives after turn 3.

Marsden wrote:
I thought something was fishy.

Why did no one touch this? We are talking about devilfish here, and no one took it?

There were two guys at the store who had been playing there for a couple of years longer than I had.

They backed him up on the fact that he could do that.

With all due respect they did help us out with a lot of other rules and quirks, so it is quite possible they made a mistake.

Hopefully I'll get a chance on Friday for a rematch.

In situations like that - get them to show you, in the rules, what is happening. So they would need to show the movement rates for skimmers / non skimmers, then the rule in the Tau codex that lets s travel more than 12".

Marsden wrote:There were two guys at the store who had been playing there for a couple of years longer than I had.

They backed him up on the fact that he could do that.

With all due respect they did help us out with a lot of other rules and quirks, so it is quite possible they made a mistake.

Hopefully I'll get a chance on Friday for a rematch.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Just replace "stupidity" with "misunderstanding of rules." People on forums are very quick to cry "cheat" when in the vast majority of times it is really just not knowing the rules. Unfortunately many people learn the rules only by playing, rather than reading the rules, and so what they think are the rules are actually handed down misinformation from a more experienced gamer. It sounds like you're going to go in with a "hey guys, I've done some research and we played some rules incorrectly" attitude. Which is the way to go.

misunderstandning is something like mixing up a weapon range or a stat....

cheating is something more blatant. if it was 1 thing then yea ok... but it sounds like it was 3 or 4 things, all at once, to get the tau a massive advantage to he could WTFPWN this guy. the fact that other vets in the store let it pass and backed him up tells me they like him better then the OP and it was a "gang bang" rules wise.


as always if something seems unfair, it probally is. no shame in asking to see the rulebook or codex that backs it up. if its acurate then wow.... those guys rock! otherwise you just stopped yourself getting hosed.

i generally put it like "im not familiar with your army and would like to learn, can i see your dex entry that allows that 36" / 3+ cover flatout move?"

or youcould always go in with the full rule nazi get up and torch the heretical cheaters.

heh.

Eldar vehicles with an upgrade can pull off 36 inches, but only 24 + 12 more in the shooting phase.

Tau vehicles besides the piranha can't go faster than 12.

You may only ever re-roll a re-roll once.

Sounds like your store is in dire need of someone who actually knows the core rules and the basics of each army.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:To the 2nd question the player controlling Bjorn gets to decide which re-roll to use (BS6 or TL) but now both, somewhere in the BRB it states something along the lines of never re-roll a re-roll.

To the 3rd question. I believe vehicles only get a 4+ cover save for going flat out instead of the 3+ bikes get for turbo-boosting, but I don't think gets the save until he finished moving.

Also: marsden, what uni are you at?

The faq states that vehicles do not get a flat out cover save against death or glory.

Marsden wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:What a mess, I be a lot of Tau players would love it if their army worked that way!

Also note, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that moved Flat Out in the movement phase (so even if he could move 36" - which he cannot - his troops are stuck in the vehicle).

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

He moved flat out in turn 1.
He disembarked in turn 2.

He didn't break that rule. =)

I know though, I'm praying the new Tau codex is not like this! XD

While it is now (hopefully) clear that Tau transports cannot move flat out, just wanted to point out that if a a vehicle cannot move flat out if a unit embarks or disembarks or is going to embark or disembark. So on turn two, any transport that disembarked a unit would not be able to move flat out. Just an FYI.

As to the Vets in the store, depending on how the question was asked, they may not have know the Tau were not Fast skimmers or did not have DE like special rules. The Tau are one of the least played armies as far as I can tell, only slightly more common than of SOB.

yea, but a vet would/should have warning bells with something like that, and know to check the codex/rulebook to make sure, especially if they are unfamiliar with the specfic rules.