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im trying to do a chaos marine army and was just wondering wether it was worth taking marks.on.anything. i am using the normal marines and dont want to use any cult units. possibly demons.

The marks get better and better on larger squads.

Don't take nurgle, it's too expensive. Likewise for Tzeetcnh.

I'd consider khorne or slannesh on a 10 man squad. But honestly, cult troops are better. Take normal csm with an iocg.

If you don't want to use cult troops because of the models, it might be worth thinking about counts as? In my army, the plague marines are just normal CSM with shields and different (more armoured) looking helmets. The zerkers are normal csm with axes and a different colour scheme. It could help you build a stronger list without ruining the theme of your army.

i guess... i have 14 plauge marines and the rest are just marines...

ok... so what cukt troops would you recomend? my friend plays a oure cult nurgle. so.i do.t want to do that. i want to utilise my tanks. i have 2 vindys a landraider a pred and 5 rhinos. also. i have chosen. nurgke terms and a dready


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i could go full slaanesh... using noise marines... for combat style im thinking. but would normal marines with mos be better? it seems they would. +5 points per model to have +1i. and its 20pts for a mark... to give them +1 i. and combat wise they both have bokt pistols and close combat weapons...

'Zerkers are great to have pop out of a Land Raider to assault with and can put a hurt on many units.

If you take rhinos, their ability to charge is a bit nerfed from exiting the transport after moving, but it cannot be helped.

Plague Marines are great for objective holding. If you know it will be the final turn, park a unit of Nurgle and go to ground if they get shot at.

Slaanesh and Tzeentch's troops choices are not spectacular standouts, but they have decent gun options. Just nothing that makes them stand out like 'zerkers and plague marines.

ok :-\ well... thats not really waht id hoped for... lol i dont especially want to buy anytbing more and i dont have any zerkers... lol

Slaanesh mark is quite cheap though and it does make your normal marines good against other marines. Depends what you face.

I'd make a rhino rush list like this:
3 units of 10 csm with 2 meltas in rhinos.
2 vindis
dread with autocannon and heavy flamer
havocs in a rhino with 4 meltas
5 chosen with 5 metlas in a rhino
if you have points take a LR with termies, but chaos LRs aren't great really.

ok.cool... why would yiu not infiltrate the chosen with meltas?

but thats closer to what i was looking for ;-) lol


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so... 2 units of 10 and 1 of 9 mos marines with 2 meltas in rhinos.
2 vindis.
5 chosen mos. 5 meltas. rhino
5 havoks. mos. 4 meltas. rhino
dready aoutocannon heavy flamer
lord mos demon wepon...

does that seem what you had in mind?


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and no. i dont have the points... for terms... thats like 400+ lol

Any mark can work on normal CSM. Just make sure the squads are large (10+ models)

For havocs, chaos glory is all you need. Same with chosen.

Beyond that, any mark can be put to use on any squad. Khorne works well on anything, nurgle, while expensive means you are going to be rolling less armor saves, so it's a bargain, slanessh works well on anything with grenades and tzeentch can be surprisingly effective on normal CSM.

ok... are you sure? i thought maybe nurgle might be better on them tbh.. keep them alive.

yea they all will be on units of 10 ish so theyre decent for them... just choosing what would be most effective

I wouldnt underestimate noise marines the sheet volume of fire a couple of squads can put out can put some serious hurt on other units even marines


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Sheer

I used the mark of khorne before, and it's actually pretty nice -- giving your powerfist equipped aspiring champion an extra attack is great.

Lordjig6 wrote:ok... are you sure? i thought maybe nurgle might be better on them tbh.. keep them alive.

For havocs, chaos glory is a must. If your havocs fail a leadership for any reason, they aren't shooting next round. Using nurgle on them, or anything else, is asking for trouble.

As for chosen, it really depends on the loadout. A gun toting unit won't make much use of khorne or slanessh, but nurgle and tzeentch can help them. Of course chaos glory keeps you in the fight, which is good for chaos as they can get cut down on the run or can get were they cannot regroup.

The reason I put chosen in a rhino, is because more rhinos on the field means more armour saturation. And that's a good thing.

Can you take a daemon prince instead of a lord? They're a million times better.

IoCG or cult troops IMHO.

I don't really see the point.

10 CSM with icon of khorne cost 30 points less than 10 Berzerkers. So compare 10 CSM to 9 berzerkers. They lose 1 weaponskill, furious charge, and fearless. Is that really worth giving up 1 berzerker?

I don't think so. Plague marines are similar, and the other marks are worthless.

Kevlar wrote:I don't really see the point.

10 CSM with icon of khorne cost 30 points less than 10 Berzerkers. So compare 10 CSM to 9 berzerkers. They lose 1 weaponskill, furious charge, and fearless. Is that really worth giving up 1 berzerker?

I don't think so. Plague marines are similar, and the other marks are worthless.

MY god! People are comparing apples and oranges! as bloody usual...

There is tactical difference between Bezerkers, and CSM with IOK. One of them can get special weapons- the other can't.

10 CSM and 10 khorne zerkers approach a rhino in the wilderness. What are our zerkers going to do?
....Charge, obviously! although pistol first since they have no fleet of foot, but bolt pistols just scratch rhino armor. Then lets assume they blow the rhino with their krak grenades, lets give them the benefit of the doubt here- the marines inside are probably going to pistol and charge to deny FC. Ha Ha Ha no charge for the bezerkers! They are WS5 IOK marines now!
So how do khorne bezerkers avoid this problem?...well they COULD take plasma pistols. Do you want to pay 30p for two shots that might kill your 21p bezerkers, and have little chance of actually opening a transport? Or do you let the rest of your army support your bezerkers by using your ranged AT to destroy the transport, so the 'zerkers can get at the sweet juicy insides? Most people go the latter, mainly because it actually works compared to the former idea!
10 CSM IOK approach a rhino in the wilderness. They will use their meltaguns to blast the rhino apart. They will then charge the contents. With 4 attacks a piece. True they aren't at S5, but 40 boltgun attacks will beat up most things outside of dedicated CC units. Against other midrange CC units they hold their own well. They can double tap and melta vehicles. They can give TEQ's and MC's doses of piping hot plasma. They can do ranged and then punch on- especially if you pair them with bezerkers.

10 CSM are more tactically flexible than bezerkers. They are much happier operating alone than bezerkers, who require support to clear the way to what they want to charge, and to clear out vehicles hiding precious troops inside for bezerkers to eat. IoK CSM don't require the support, leaving your HS slots 1 less unit to worry about covering, and they can support bezerkers. Think of them as a khorne tactical squad. The key word here is "tactical", not "MAIM KILL BURN MAIM KILL BURN!"
I like some thinking with my mindless bloodlust

My rating of the icons is K>S>N>T
Khorne bumps up attacks, but give it to a squad for a reason . a 2x plasma or plasmagun and lascannon toting CSM squad, are not going to get good use of that icon. CSM with melta/flamers, or raptors on the other hand...
Slaanesh bumps your initiative, and lets you punch on before marines in close combat... So give it to a squad that's going to be in close combat. LC terminators, for example.
Nurgle bumps your toughness, but is pricey, too pricey. Especially since you don't get FNP like plagues... I'm not a fan.
Tzeentch bumps your invul? ehhhhhh? Too expensive for a save that really isn't needed. Cover deals with ranged low AP weapons, and that save will NOT save a CSM squad in melee with a dedicated assault unit just not worth it.

Summarize- IoCG. Khorne if your going into melee, or going to be near melee I.E you have short ranged special weapons and your trying to get into double tap range anyway. Slaanesh if you want to slap marines before they can slap back. The other two are pretty meh.

As for the berzerker v. MoK CSM, I'd point people to this discussion. Berzerkers are good, but so are MoK CSM. Berzerkers get fearless and furious charge, but with Ld10, fearless isn't ALL that great, and furious charge only works on the charge. If the berzerkers can't guarantee the charge, then they're basically just really expensive MoK CSM. Meanwhile, the berzerkers lose their boltguns, and the ability to take special or heavy weapons. That means that they lack a lot of the versatility of CSM, for getting more expensive, and only better in one particular role - in one particular circumstance in that role. The people I most respect in that thread commented that berzerkers and MoK CSM are both good, but the best ratio to take them in is probably 2 MoK CSM squads per squad of berzerkers. Especially if you're going to be running them on foot, and thus aren't constrained by squad sizes fitting into rhinos.

As for 1ksons and MoT CSM, that one is obvious. 1ksons are fantastic because they come with so many little things. The problem is that they're expensive, and if you're not making use out of all of those little things, it can be a waste. Meanwhile, MoT marines still behave in every respect like marines, except they can also laugh off thunderhammers and DCCWs in close combat much moreso than any other CSM troops choice outsid of 1ksons.

As for noise marines vs. MoS CSM, they're both awful. The only redeeming factor is that MoS is cheap, but you're not really gaining much for the cost of clogging up a place where an IoCG could have been.

As for plague marines vs. MoN CSM, this is the only real one where there is a serious divergence. MoN allows you to keep I4, but plague marines give you fearless, defensive grenades and feel no pain. MoN are slightly obnoxious marines. Plague marines can walk through a lot of infantry squads with impunity. No guardsman holding a bayonet is going to want to hit (1 in 2), wound (1 in 6), beat armor (1 in 3) and then STILL have to make it through a FNP save (1 in 2). As far as non-power weapon CC units go, plague marines are as tough as GK paladins.

Oh bollocks. People explained to you five ways to Sunday why the berzerkers are much more reliable than CSM with MoK. You just don't seem to want to get it. To each their own.

You are not better off taking a weaker unit because it is more self sufficient. Maybe if all you take are troops of berzerkers or IoK marines, but that list would be horrible. Berzerkers are supported by melta wielding plague marines, demon princes with 2d6 penetration, land raiders, rhinos with combi-melta, obliterators, dreadnaughts, defilers, etc.

You open up the can holding the enemies choicest stuff and point the berzerkers at it then make it go away. Not very difficult. Thinking a squad of 10 IoK marines are going to accomplish that on their own is pure fancy.

I enjoyed running a 5 man squad of Chaos Terminators with Lighting Claws and the Mark of Slaanesh. SM terminators may have shields, but they can't survive higher initiative with that many rerolls.

Dr. What wrote:I enjoyed running a 5 man squad of Chaos Terminators with Lighting Claws and the Mark of Slaanesh. SM terminators may have shields, but they can't survive higher initiative with that many rerolls.

Terminators are a different story. Cult terminators would obviously be a lot better, but that option no longer exists.

Kevlar wrote:Oh bollocks. People explained to you five ways to Sunday why the berzerkers are much more reliable than CSM with MoK. You just don't seem to want to get it. To each their own.

Reliable at what? That seems to be the bit you aren't quite getting. No one is arguing that MOKCSM are as reliable in CC in zerkers.

Kevlar wrote:You open up the can holding the enemies choicest stuff and point the berzerkers at it then make it go away. Not very difficult. Thinking a squad of 10 IoK marines are going to accomplish that on their own is pure fancy.

Thinking that we think 10 MOKCSM are going to accomplish that on their own is twisting the argument, and is looking at it in a vacuum where the can gets opened all the time. If you can't see the value in tactical flexibility here- fine. You're comparing a specialist to a tactical unit- the specialist is always going to be better at what it specializes in. Especially when the OP's post is-

Lordjig6 wrote:im trying to do a chaos marine army and was just wondering wether it was worth taking marks.on.anything. i am using the normal marines and dont want to use any cult units. possibly demons.

So instead of telling him to buy a cookie cutter, how about you give him what he asked for?

Kevlar wrote:You are not better off taking a weaker unit because it is more self sufficient... Berzerkers are supported

This is all more nuianced than you're making it out to be.

On the sliding scale of versatility to specialization, the primary metric is risk. Yes, those berzerkers are in the same list as oblits and other forms of support, but can you always guarantee that the support will always be there when you want it? Setting up a web of ultraspecialized units that require other units to keep them safe means that your opponent can always just focus their killing power on one key support unit, and then be able to cascade down through your list, picking out units that are now unsupported, because the support units have been picked off earlier in the game. The specialization gives you efficiency of killing power, which is what makes it worthwhile to specialize, but the more specialized your units become, the more risk you take, and the more fragile the list becomes over all.

For example, a vast majority of people take take power fists on berzerker skull champions. On the face of it, this doesn't make sense - you're spending way more points over the price of a power weapon, while actually making it arguably worse against the kinds of targets that the berzerkers themselves are the best at facing. The reason people do it, though, is because they don't want the squad to get roflstomped by a passing dreadnought or monstrous creature. "Yes," you might say, "but that's what the rest of your list is for. Rely on keeping units specialized to keep dreads out of your berzerkers' face to keep the dreads out of your berzerkers' faces". True, but can you guarantee that your specialized anti-dread support units will ALWAYS be able to stop the dread before it's too late? EVERY time? Even when your opponent has some say over things?

In this case, taking a 8x squad of berzerkers with a power weapon is making a nearly 200 point gamble that your support unit will always work as intended. For a mere 10 points more, you only slightly reduce the efficiency of your killing power (by 10 points), while drastically reducing the risk that a move that your opponent will make will screw over the squad as a whole.

Yes, there is a real cost to self-sufficiency and versatility. In some cases, it throws the killing power efficiency of the squad in the toilet, and often more versatile things in this game mean that you have reduced killing power over all. Often, however, is not always, and this is one of the clear examples. By taking a berzerker squad, you are gambling that your support units will always be able to kill off the things that are good against berzerkers, especially in close combat, and furthermore, that you will always get the charge (otherwise berzerkers are rather moot in their upgrades). With the MoK CSM, for the same price, they lose some of their killing power on the charge, but keep almost all of their killing power not on the charge, AND they have the shooting option to keep vehicles out of their face, AND they have the ability to opt out of close combat entirely in cases where charging is a worse idea (like getting entangled with howling banshees), AND they have a 50% greater threat range over all, meaning that they're not just twiddling their thumbs when they don't start out the turn within 12" of something worth charging.

The end result of a MoK CSM squad is something that has a slightly worse efficiency of killing power on the charge, but has better or equal killing power in other places, and, most importantly, is much less risky, for only a minor loss of efficiency.

Specialization may, in general, be better, but more specialization isn't always the smartest move you can make. Taking icons instead of cult troops can certainly be the best value of killing power per risk over all.

Berzerkers not getting off a charge is again almost a nil occurance. I don't think any unit in the game has the threat range of berzerkers in a raider supported by two lash princes. 12" + 6" + 2d6" + 2d6". 35" average first turn threat range is pretty good. Even without the raider it is 29" deploying from a rhino.

Giving up fearless, WS5, and furious charge for two more melta guns in a list that can easily spam melta on everything is not a good trade off. The berzerker abilities aren't just offensive. WS5, fearless, and I5 also work defensively ensuring the berzerkers take a lot less return wounds than MoK marines would.

If the argument is between taking MoK marines over berzerkers for fluff reasons then I have no argument. They are better than unmarked CSM. But don't kid yourself into thinking they are almost as good as Berzerkers. They are quite a step down.

Just my 2pence!

Firstly and most importantly, play your army the way you want to play it, the game is meant to be fun! Obviously if you are entering a tourny then yes by all means tailor your list to the best you have model wise!

I think a lot of people also forget that yes Noise Marines and Thousand Sons are expensive, but, they have access to AP3 weapons. Blastmasters and Doom sirens will ruin a MEQ's day, strength 8 AP3 on the BM is also useful for popping transports. (plus my wife loves pink, so spending more money to paint pink marines is fine with her!)

Thousand Son's all come with AP3 bolters, plus whatever power you give the sorcerer (doombolt is actually good here)which if rapid fired will produce a hail of Marine killing goodness, then once/if the close combat happens they sill have 3+ armour & 4+ Inv saves!

I'm a fan of using full cult armies however so, as ever, YMMV. If you want a full competative list then listen to the advice of the people above!
I just thought i'll add something about what people consider the "worst" cult troops. I do also run full khorne and nurgle armies as well as Black Legion competative lists, but i'm mainly in the game to have fun.

Slaanesh mark is nice on regular Chaos marines if you play against MEQ, cheap, useful and can be fluffy

wow thankyou. i think this is the most informative post ive had on here. so thankyou very much. i see all yiur points andi see the obvious dufferences... the units do really need to be big enough to make the difference... but as that is i can see whilst keeping to a solid theme... its hard to specialuse without cults...

Mr. Voidness wrote:Slaanesh mark is nice on regular Chaos marines if you play against MEQ, cheap, useful and can be fluffy

Its a little better than nothing but not great for an assault squad. A fist on the unit is sort of a waste, but without it you can not threaten dreads or vehicles. Monstrous creatures and ICs would pose problems too. I'd stick with MoK and a fist for dedicated assault.

Noise Marines cost a little more, but they aren't fielded for the +1 init. You field them as MSU for the doom siren or blastmaster for a cheap MEQ killing squad. The blastmaster on 5 NM sitting back on an objective in cover is fairly good value. Its almost like having an extra plasma cannon.

Kevlar wrote:Berzerkers not getting off a charge is again almost a nil occurance. I don't think any unit in the game has the threat range of berzerkers in a raider supported by two lash princes. 12" + 6" + 2d6" + 2d6". 35" average first turn threat range is pretty good. Even without the raider it is 29" deploying from a rhino.

Did you read anything I just wrote? What happens if your opponent wrecks your land raider? What if they kill the lash princes? What if they kill the berzerkers before they make it into close combat?

Furthermore, comparing this to MoK CSM is outrageous. 10x MoK CSM, champ with fist and 2x melta is 240 points, and puts down equivalent killing power to 8 khorne berzerkers on the charge. That setup you cost there, is 208 for the berzerkers, 250 for a land raider, and the two lash princes are 270. That's comparing 728 points to 240 points.

If you're going to ask what does more damage in close combat, two lash princes and 8 khorne berzerkers, or 39 MoK CSM with a couple of power fists? Which one is more durable? Which one cares less about what your opponent does?

Seems rather obvious to me...

...Actually, it takes less small-arms fire to down the regular CSM than it does the absurdly-expensive setup...

Not that I'd advise ever taking the absurdly expensive setup. First, you're never going to need 35" charge, it's just silly. Second, it's absurdly expensive. Third, it's not an 'either or' issue, if you really need long charges take the horde of Khorne-marked Marines and the Lash Princes, then drag your enemy into regular charge range.

Kevlar wrote:Berzerkers not getting off a charge is again almost a nil occurance. I don't think any unit in the game has the threat range of berzerkers in a raider supported by two lash princes. 12" + 6" + 2d6" + 2d6". 35" average first turn threat range is pretty good. Even without the raider it is 29" deploying from a rhino.

Wow. So you don't play anyone with psychic defense or any decent ability to stop a landraider?


...where do you live, I wanna come play

Kevlar wrote:Giving up fearless, WS5, and furious charge for two more melta guns in a list that can easily spam melta on everything is not a good trade off. The berzerker abilities aren't just offensive. WS5, fearless, and I5 also work defensively ensuring the berzerkers take a lot less return wounds than MoK marines would.

If the argument is between taking MoK marines over berzerkers for fluff reasons then I have no argument. They are better than unmarked CSM. But don't kid yourself into thinking they are almost as good as Berzerkers. They are quite a step down.

*golfclap* you really cannot read can you. We're trying to say, again and again, that these are apples and oranges. If you stopped and read what we are trying to say, You would stop trying to tell us that this Orange is much more Orange colored and looks more like and orange and tastes more like an orange than this weird red orange here.
its because its an apple, not an orange