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We're all aware of the reason WHY Abaddon hasn't succeeded so far... right?

I mean, seriously, it's not some ridiculous secret right? Because here, and on the internet in general, I think people might not be getting it.

If Abaddon reached Terra, the universe would be drastically different and would alter the setting to a point where the Imperium couldn't exist.

Abaddon isn't some silly massive failure. GW CAN'T let him win, because if he does, there's no Imperium. If there's no Imperium, the setting is screwed. It's the same reason that Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror had their fluff retconned. Because the change in the setting would be so massive that it would make armies in the setting unsustainable.

Don't get me wrong, I love the failaddon jokes, they're funny as hell, but I want to make sure we all know the reasons behind "13" Black Crusades. It's certainly not due to a lack of effort...

Failaddon doesn't need to reach Terra to be successful, he just needs to do ANYTHING he sets out to do.

Using the 13th Crusade as an example: Simply removing Cadia and breaking out of the Eye would have been a success.

He's called Failaddon not because he can't destroy Terra but because he's billed as THE threat and constantly fails to deliver on any promise or threat he makes.

Hell, he all but conquered the Gothic sector and somehow LOST it at all in the 11th hour.

I'm not saying destroy the IoM, but GW's so afraid of shaking up the status of the setting that they've neutered Abaddon into futility.

That's the thing though. Removing Cadia would remove one of GW's currently supported armies, the Cadians.

I mean sure, I think that GW ought to list the specific successes of the crusades more, but again, Failaddon capturing Cadia, Terra, hell, even something dumb like Catachan or Fenris, would be too much of an upset.

IMHO GW should have ended the Eye of Terror with Failaddon's forces overwhelming Cadia's defences long enough so that more hordes of traitor could enter realspace, but meh. I still attribute his failures due to bad writing and plot armor.

It's not Abbaddon that's a failure, it's GWs writers and executives.

The writers can't seem to come up with a way for hime to win without "screwing things up" too much, and the executives can't concieve of a world where they might have to do a big change in their product line for the sake of improving the world their writers have created.

They've put themselves in a corner through all this and it's us, the players and readers, that end up losing.

The only book I remember with him in it had him walking through the SS Planet Killer and any slave who dared to look at him would be killed.

that's not sinister and evil. that's comic book evil. That's Cobra Commander stuff.

And with his spikes and skulls and top knot he's just too comical to take seriously.

Thus far even the combined forces of the Traitor Legions, the Daemon Hordes and the Lost and the Damned have failed to penetrate the Imperium's ultra resistant plot armor.

GW could advance the plot without shaking things up too much. They could say he took Cadia and is on his way to Terra or something. And the Imperium would still be around.

It's a mix of both things, really. On the one hand, GW so far hasn't come up with a new setting other than eternal stalemate.

On the other, Abaddon does come off as a bad general for failing repeatedly at getting lasting ground or doing visible damage.

He's not alone in that, of course, but having been around since the Heresy it shows a lot worse. I mena, what have the Orks got to show for all their numbers and kunnin'? Their biggest warboss almost conquered this one single world...twice!

And so on and on. Sure, the writing in fluff will portray some unconnected victories ("Necrons completely wiped out that great SM chapter, the Previously Unheards! Fear them!"), but as a whole it's a lot of punches being thrown and no kbockdowns.

Yeah abbadon isn't the only thing that never seems to do anything.

Orks own worlds everywhere but they are not "united" enough. Ohhh but if they were watch out galaxy.

Nids have uncountable numbers and such, can cripple an entire craft world with ease and yet against the ultramarines (whose stat line is similar to an eldar aspect warrior) can hold out and win.

Then you get odd ball things like the tau. Their so called dynamic advances and greater good triumphs over anything non imperium, but against the imperium they "hold out" until the Iom decides the tau aren't worth their time to destroy.

It'll never end. But that's ok. 40k still rocks.

Some have suggested that all 12 of the previous Black Crusades (or at least many of the mid to later ones) have been an attempt by Abaddon to grind the Imperium down in wars of attrition and part of some master plan for the 13th.

GW needs to advance the plot already though. Have the Cadian Gate fallen and he is now marching to Terra for the next few editions. If you want Cadian shock troops in the current timeline, it would be quite easy to find a loophole with how they still exist. They were stationed on another world and didnt get there in time for the Black Crusade, forces evacuated, a force sent on a Crusade decades ago that vanished in warp travel has suddenly re-emerged from the Warp (happens semi-frequently), etc..

Platuan4th wrote:
Hell, he all but conquered the Gothic sector and somehow LOST it at all in the 11th hour.

Extra time is a bitch sometimes...

Technically, Abaddon did conquer Cadia. Executive meddling made it so he only had a foothold on the planet though.

I'm not going to be able to give you an impartial answer. Abbadon (and the Black Legion) are tied in my mind for being the single worst part of the 40k fluff. But I'll try.

The "the writers can't let that happen" excuse is an appropriate response if the question is "Why hasn't Abbadon conquered Earth?" (And I'd buy that. That's fair.) The problem is, when your reasoning out-of-setting dictates the action, you have to have a convincing reason within-setting. And there just isn't one, for me. At this point, I think that the Despoiler is almost a joke. Sure, he's scary in person, but I think that any Chaos Marine with any common sense left just nods and smiles while Abbadon is talking, and then heads for the hills the moment Abbadon turns his back.

I would love to see an article about such-and-such a Chapter, (let's call them the Carnelian Stallions) the Chapter that was deceived, betrayed, and then destroyed by some masterful plot of Abbadon's. But the only stories we really tend to see about the Despoiler are the ones in which he makes a bunch of big, nasty promises, and then fails to deliver on them. I can't understand why anyone even bothers to follow him anymore.

Part of my disappointment with the Despoiler and his legion is that they have such potential, from a story perspective, and I feel like they haven't lived up to any of it. I would be absolutely delighted if they added in some background material to put some more ticks in Abaddon's 'win' column. With a new Codex coming out soon, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Platuan4th wrote:Terra but because he's billed as THE threat

That's not actually true. Chaos Space Marines (the only thing Abaddon has any say over) are pretty far down the list of things the Imperium is worried about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jimsolo wrote: The problem is, when your reasoning out-of-setting dictates the action, you have to have a convincing reason within-setting. And there just isn't one, for me. At this point, I think that the Despoiler is almost a joke. Sure, he's scary in person, but I think that any Chaos Marine with any common sense left just nods and smiles while Abbadon is talking, and then heads for the hills the moment Abbadon turns his back.

Dig a little deeper. This is actually his official characterization.

Abaddon is totally incompetent in-universe, not just to us. He's also an unbelievable badass. He gets to stay in charge because he exists in a might-makes-right faction.

In BFG (the Specialist Games always seem to have a better handle of the actual setting), Abaddon made your fleet worse for having him. He's just out of his depth in anything except a single close-quarters fight.

In BFG (the Specialist Games always seem to have a better handle of the actual setting), Abaddon made your fleet worse for having him. He's just out of his depth in anything except a single close-quarters fight.

Funny, he's actually a pretty decent in that game, though at higher points costs. He also makes it far easier in the campaign games as well, especially for planetary bombardment games.

Dig a little deeper. This is actually his official characterization.

Considering the characterization also says that right after Abbadon does something small of note, everything splinters because all the factions under the banner are infighting to the point of insanity, and that abbadon, fierce as he is, cannot deal with 4+ factions trying to murder each other, and trying to leave on their own because they'd rather do their own thing.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Dig a little deeper. This is actually his official characterization.

Considering the characterization also says that right after Abbadon does something small of note, everything splinters because all the factions under the banner are infighting to the point of insanity, and that abbadon, fierce as he is, cannot deal with 4+ factions trying to murder each other, and trying to leave on their own because they'd rather do their own thing.

Well that is the nature of chaos. The point is that Abbadon actually manages to get 4 completely antagonistic forces to work together at all. In older editions Khorn units could not be fielded in the same army as Slanesh units, and there in lies the point. While Chaos forces without an immediate goal fracture because they all hate each other, Abbadon actually manages to get them to all hold hands and sing kumbaya.

Abbadon is a badass (although the topknot is pretty silly) However like anything in 40K he falls victim to imperium plot armour. First you have the problem that the writers cant actually have him succeed because of how it would harm the imperial guard armies. However if I am not mistaken, the black crusades, like the wars for Armageddon, were done with player participation. Of course more people play space marines than chaos so it is almost inevitable that the crusades fail.

Personally I think GW should have different powers in the Galaxy wax and wane with each edition instead of just re-writing the rules and back stories. They can always have other factions fight them back again, but with that happening in a different edition it at least lets the universe feel more fluid than the current stasis. They have the tools to progress the story in a way that would actually help them build interest in the non space marine sides. Unfortunately they do not seem to be particularly forward thinking when it comes to marketing and supporting their customer base.

However if I am not mistaken, the black crusades, like the wars for Armageddon, were done with player participation. Of course more people play space marines than chaos so it is almost inevitable that the crusades fail.

The last one had chaos winning, but space marines won the "Moral Victory" (aka, and more )

It's why Abbadon actually gained ground on Cadia..but than lost it.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation or inaccurate information floating around about the 13th Black Crusade, and wiki entries are certainly not a good reliable source of information.

I have posted results from the Andy Chambers WD wrap up article about the 13th Black Crusade below, unedited:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Also there is the relevant part in the Apocalypse rulebook showing Abaddon leading the 13th Black Crusade in the Thesus sector, with a once more functional Planetkiller ship. The Thesus sector was not among the sectors fought over and was not part of the Cadian Gate sectors. Therefore, the only conclusion is that at least Abaddon's personal forces have moved beyond the Gate.

Come on, you never heard of the 2++ save the IOM has?

It's particularly good against all races except Tyranids, who seem to chew through with mass of numbers.

So Abbaddon has never even taken Cadia....

Yet Honsou, a "mongrel" newbie warsmith, managed to amass an army and essentially invade Ultramar?

That's right Abby, you suck!

I've often considered that maybe Abaddon's purpose is the crusades themselves. That is to say, create these massive, brutal wars for the purposes of heightening the emotions to extreme degrees of those who fight in them, so that the Chaos gods might feed on these souls in a heightened state of passion. Perhaps this is all a way to breed something terrible, some greater Daemons of as of yet unseen power levels. Just a thought.

Praxiss wrote:So Abbaddon has never even taken Cadia....

Yet Honsou, a "mongrel" newbie warsmith, managed to amass an army and essentially invade Ultramar?

That's right Abby, you suck!

Honsou probably couldn't have done that without help from M'Kar the Reborn.

Last time i checked the 13. Black Crusade was doing well. The cadian gate has been isolated from the rest of the Imperium, Quarren and his Ulthwe allies lost most of their fleet when they drove off the Blackstone fortress ( although the chaos fleet fared even worse /o\ ), the planetkiller is still at large, a new daemonworld has risen and even Creed is hard pressed to defend what little of Cadia remains in imperial hands.
Abaddon hasn't won yet but the cadian gate iself is breached.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:The only book I remember with him in it had him walking through the SS Planet Killer and any slave who dared to look at him would be killed.

He was also in Soul Hunter. ADB did a good job with him, I thought.

The 13 Crusades weren't each about destroying terra. Each had a specific purpose, to leach the imperium's resources, to capture/destroy something vital to the Imperium, and to get back to home base. These are more like huge raids than they are crusades.

He's doing just fine. Get off his back. WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!?!?

csm themselves are jokes.

they're a bunch of millenia-old ultimate warriors who can't set aside ego for 10 minutes to trounce sm that are barely a couple-hundred years old.

if the world eaters could unite for 20 minutes they''d take out entire chapters.

but no...can't have anything actually interesting occur in the gameworld

Twiqbal wrote:csm themselves are jokes.

they're a bunch of millenia-old ultimate warriors who can't set aside ego for 10 minutes to trounce sm that are barely a couple-hundred years old.

if the world eaters could unite for 20 minutes they''d take out entire chapters.

but no...can't have anything actually interesting occur in the gameworld

What? I'm really curious to why you think that.

Well, Chaos Space Marines are a joke actually. At least to Chaos. They've already served their purpose as far as Chaos is concerned after it won the Heresy. Now all Chaos needs them for is to maintain the status quo.

Any larger victory of Chaos Space Marines would make things worse for Chaos, so that doesn't happen.

Tzeentch think he's fun to mess with.

Wait, Chaos won the Heresy?

LoneLictor wrote:Thus far even the combined forces of the Traitor Legions, the Daemon Hordes and the Lost and the Damned have failed to penetrate the Imperium's ultra resistant plot armor.

GW could advance the plot without shaking things up too much. They could say he took Cadia and is on his way to Terra or something. And the Imperium would still be around.

Even the tyranids have made more inroads into the galaxy than Chaos has and chaos is considered such a massive threat. Really? They even failed in the Horus Heresy after pretty much bringing the imperium to its knees. Hehehe...Chaos incompetence goes back way further than Abaddon's 13th crusade. I mean all the forces of chaos are ready to crush the final bastion of the Imperial palace and Horus gets killed on his barge, pretty much killing the Emperor at the same time and all of the chaos forces say, "whoops, never mind. Our big leader died, so even though we are READY TO WIN we'll just leave now." Yeah chaos has been getting the shaft for a long time indeed.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:
I mean all the forces of chaos are ready to crush the final bastion of the Imperial palace and Horus gets killed on his barge, pretty much killing the Emperor at the same time and all of the chaos forces say, "whoops, never mind. Our big leader died, so even though we are READY TO WIN we'll just leave now." Yeah chaos has been getting the shaft for a long time indeed.

Skriker

You do know it would have been an entirely different game if they did that differently, right?